Sonarworks in Master Insert FX addin 1-3db of Gain

[ianfellerman]

Sonarworks Reference 4 seems to add 1-3db of gain. I don't know how to make this stop, I want to reference my track through it but having to gain stage back and forth between it being on and bypassed is super time consuming. I put it last as in insert fx in the master master section. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

[PhillipOrdonez]

Well, you are meant to work with it on the whole time not to reference. Also, when you load your curve for your speakers or headphones, it turns the level way down. Here it is about 9db lower for my headphones and something similar for my monitors.

I think you can just turn the gain down in the plug-in anyway. But again, it is not meant to turn it off and on all the time, it should be always on, then only off when rendering.

[ianfellerman]

I'm using it for my speakers. for sure leaving it on most of the time, maybe I'm making things too complicated, but let's say I'm mastering a project, pull sonar off, loudness war aside, It could be possible for me to go up another db or two without distortion, because sonar is adding gain that's not there.

[PhillipOrdonez]

I'm using it for my speakers. for sure leaving it on most of the time, maybe I'm making things too complicated, but let's say I'm mastering a project, pull sonar off, loudness war aside, It could be possible for me to go up another db or two without distortion, because sonar is adding gain that's not there.

Then turn it down from the plug-in. You should master with it on too then, and have any analysis and reference plugins right before it. Then bypass for render and you'll be golden.

Do you have the "safe headroom" button activated?

[ianfellerman]

Thanks so much sticking with me on this. Yes using it to master too. Safe room is off. I have the opposite problem where it's adding gain. So when I pull it off the mix it' will peak over -4db. To get it to gain match as best as possible bypassed and on, I have to turn sonarworks down by about -1.8 to -2.1 db's. I'd love for it to just not add any gain.

[ianfellerman]

also, let's say I turn the gain down -2db's on sonar in the mix, when I use it on the master should I keep sonars gain -2db's?

[PhillipOrdonez]

That is super weird that safe headroom is adding gain instead of removing.

Okay, you can turn down the gain manually. I would turn it way down if I was you

Okay? Then, I'm not sure what you mean in your last post, but hear me out, just turn it way down, and make sure it is actually the very last thing on the chain. You know with Reason, a device may be above anther one but still be after, so check the cables! Once you're certain it is the last thing, then make sure the thing right before it is your analysis tool. Tell me what's the true peak level on that, and just for giggles, put another instance of your analysis tool after sonar works and let me know what it both read.... But for all intents and purposes, if your levels are good before sonar works, no matter how much you turn down in the plug-in, they will be good when you export them

[ianfellerman]

update:
I was trying to get my room as flat as possible before applying sonar. So I was messing with the control room on my speakers first. I had a choice of either having to add a bit of gain at 50hz or reducing around 200hz with sonar if I played a bit with taking out 2db's with the control room on one speaker. Adding gain is a bad idea, much better to switch it up and have it reduce frequencies then add some. Now it's only adding .5 - 1db to my meter which is way easier to gain stage, but I basically don't have too. Thank you for your help.

[PhillipOrdonez]

update:
I was trying to get my room as flat as possible before applying sonar. So I was messing with the control room on my speakers first. I had a choice of either having to add a bit of gain at 50hz or reducing around 200hz with sonar if I played a bit with taking out 2db's with the control room on one speaker. Adding gain is a bad idea, much better to switch it up and have it reduce frequencies then add some. Now it's only adding .5 - 1db to my meter which is way easier to gain stage, but I basically don't have too. Thank you for your help.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

I never had any problems with it; the safe headroom mode compensates for any gain it may add to flatten the room so it's always a non issue for me ‍♂️ I mix and master all the time and gain staging is super simple. Since everything comes before it, for me it is more as if it's not even there until it is time to turn it off for export...

[ianfellerman]

okay I think i have better way of phrasing this question:

So I turned the clipping protection off while I'm mixing and just have it at 0db so its not doing any gain reduction on my master fader. My mix is clipping but then when I bypass the sonarworks it will be peaking at about -4db. Are the implications of this that if I was hypothetically mixing the same track in a "flat" studio environment that my mix would be clipping, or that it would be peaking at -3db?

Do i trust my reasons meter with sonar off or my meter with sonar on?

[PhillipOrdonez]

okay I think i have better way of phrasing this question:

So I turned the clipping protection off while I'm mixing and just have it at 0db so its not doing any gain reduction on my master fader. My mix is clipping but then when I bypass the sonarworks it will be peaking at about -4db. Are the implications of this that if I was hypothetically mixing the same track in a "flat" studio environment that my mix would be clipping, or that it would be peaking at -3db?

Do i trust my reasons meter with sonar off or my meter with sonar on?

Sonar off, mate. Cause you'll bypass it anyway on export... I suggest you have all metering BEFORE sonar. Then you can trust them and have a flat curve at the same time. You can use the free youlean meter, a free vu meter rack extension by redrock sound or any other analysis tool you may want to use, and always have sonar the very latest thing in the chain.

If you're adamant using Reason meters, just put sonar after them, you can route the cables on the back and have sonar right before the hardware interface.

[PhillipOrdonez]

But why do you want to have it clipping? Have the safety thing on! I don't get it

[ianfellerman]

hmmm, my brains exploding. What is the true meter reading? reasons meter without sonar on or reasons meter with it off? am i truly clipping with sonar on? I don't want sonar pulling my mixes way down then what they should not be pulled down.

[ianfellerman]

This is how I have sonar set up in my chain, is this wrong?

[PhillipOrdonez]

hmmm, my brains exploding. What is the true meter reading? reasons meter without sonar on or reasons meter with it off? am i truly clipping with sonar on? I don't want sonar pulling my mixes way down then what they should not be pulled down.

It all depends on whether the meter is after or before sonar. And you can put the meters before sonar so you don't need to think about it.

Just looked at your picture, and it isn't wrong, but you can have it so sonar comes after the meters if you want.

I will show you in the next message how to do it so the reason meters come before sonar.

It does not matter if sonar turns them down because you are meant to turn sonar off when rendering your mix. You know?

[PhillipOrdonez]

Do that

[PhillipOrdonez]

From master section into Sonarworks, from sonarworks into the audio outputs 1 and 2.

[PhillipOrdonez]

Wait, no, that does not work.

But just dont ude the Reason big meter... There are far better meters out there, like the free ones I mentioned:

https://youlean.co/youlean-loudness-meter/
https://redrocksound.ru/products/vu/#:~ ... 0%2B3%20VU

[PhillipOrdonez]

Still, connect the sonarworks the way I showed and put your meters in the mastering section. That does work, What does not work is the Big meter. I couldnt have the big meter come before Sonarworks.

[ianfellerman]

what if I have send a send fx in channel 8? would this be a way of achieving it too through the control room?

[ianfellerman]

you probably want to murder me and thank you again for your patience. With this routing, when I turn the gain all the way down on sonar, i lose all audio and my meter is still active. I think with this set up I'm getting my true meter peak.

[PhillipOrdonez]

you probably want to murder me and thank you again for your patience. With this routing, when I turn the gain all the way down on sonar, i lose all audio and my meter is still active. I think with this set up I'm getting my true meter peak.

If your fabfilter plugin is the one in charge of your metering, then effectively sonar is after it and thus not affecting your meter at all. Happy times!

No worries, I'm glad I could help!