Softube's new MiniMoog emulation - Model 72

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selig
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Post 01 Oct 2020

tallguy wrote:
01 Oct 2020
Being quite familiar with Legend, I instantly noticed the difference when trying out Model 72. It's way dirtier and grittier sounding. Almost as if they made a caricature of what most people imagine an old synth sounds like.
I've long felt a lot of "vintage" gear is a caricature of the original, like some early "tube" mic preamps that were dirty as hell no matter the settings.
The difference:
The vintage gear was doing everything it could do to sound clean, with the "character" coming from (mostly) unwanted side effects.
The copies start from the other end, doing everything they can to sound "dirty". I'm guessing they don't want their customers to miss the effect to subtlety, so they make sure you can "appreciate" the character! ;)
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Heater
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Post 01 Oct 2020

I tend to use the Legend the most but I'm confused by folks opinion of Monark. I've got it and have played a mini and it definitely sounds like the real thing.

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hurricane
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Post 01 Oct 2020

Pretty dramatic difference when you put the latest and greatest M72 against Subtractor, Thor, or Europa. The thin, digital, weak, and wimpy nature of those synths really stands out (again, when compared to M72). Brings to mind the limited perspective Reason users had back in the day, when they thought THOR was the most amazing sounding synth ever. Wonder if we'll ever see RS develop a synth as sonically strong as Model 72. Doubt it!
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chaosroyale
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Post 01 Oct 2020

The default setup is like a slightly exaggerated parody of a Moog, or an old one in poor condition, as others have said. I expect it has trims so you can clean things up a little?

Likewise, the Legend has trims on the back that allow you to fuck things up more than the default. So anyone who wants that lo-fi sound can still get it.

In practice, there will be no difference between this and the Legend when its in the mix.

I would bet dollars to donuts that -provided the filter cutoff and resonance covers a similar range- you can get both of these VSTs to sound as similar as you could with two actual hardware Moog Ds side by side.

*also, trying to compare the sounds using "the same settings" is completely wrong. It's just a GUI, they may have set up the response of each knob very differently, maybe based on one particular Moog they examined, or on an idealized version, and with a differing curve relating the actual parameters to the VST program values. If you want to test the filter at the same settings for example, you have to set the cutoff, Q and key tracking by ear. I would be very surprised if you could not get them both within a tiny margin of error.

With that all in mind...Although the pricing isn't a complete joke like a lot of Softubes stuff, this has to compete with the Legend, which is absolutely excellent, and covers the same ground for less money. Maybe fans of softube modular are their intended audience, rather than standalone users.

chaosroyale
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Post 01 Oct 2020

There are still people who think Thor is some kind of wondersynth. I used it a lot in 2007-2010 because it was a useful jack-of-all-trades / Swiss army knife synth, but even then I never thought it sounded particularly special, it was just very flexible. Basically it was "Zebra2 in your DAW but not as good".
hurricane wrote:
01 Oct 2020
Pretty dramatic difference when you put the latest and greatest M72 against Subtractor, Thor, or Europa. The thin, digital, weak, and wimpy nature of those synths really stands out (again, when compared to M72). Brings to mind the limited perspective Reason users had back in the day, when they thought THOR was the most amazing sounding synth ever. Wonder if we'll ever see RS develop a synth as sonically strong as Model 72. Doubt it!

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SebAudio
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Post 03 Oct 2020

chaosroyale wrote:
01 Oct 2020
There are still people who think Thor is some kind of wondersynth. I used it a lot in 2007-2010 because it was a useful jack-of-all-trades / Swiss army knife synth, but even then I never thought it sounded particularly special, it was just very flexible. Basically it was "Zebra2 in your DAW but not as good".
hurricane wrote:
01 Oct 2020
Pretty dramatic difference when you put the latest and greatest M72 against Subtractor, Thor, or Europa. The thin, digital, weak, and wimpy nature of those synths really stands out (again, when compared to M72). Brings to mind the limited perspective Reason users had back in the day, when they thought THOR was the most amazing sounding synth ever. Wonder if we'll ever see RS develop a synth as sonically strong as Model 72. Doubt it!
If you look at a synth « stand alone » just playing presets and performing then there’s no way the Reason synths are as much « great ».
But in the context of the rack, in a whole mix, they’re great.
And if you want to discover the joy of programming your own sounds, encompassing lot of synthesis methods, Thor is best in class.

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miscend
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Post 03 Oct 2020

hurricane wrote:
01 Oct 2020
Pretty dramatic difference when you put the latest and greatest M72 against Subtractor, Thor, or Europa. The thin, digital, weak, and wimpy nature of those synths really stands out (again, when compared to M72). Brings to mind the limited perspective Reason users had back in the day, when they thought THOR was the most amazing sounding synth ever. Wonder if we'll ever see RS develop a synth as sonically strong as Model 72. Doubt it!
I still think Thor is great. I think the difference you are hearing is more a difference in timbre than a difference in quality. But the Reason synth that really compares favourably with Softube M72 is Complex-1. Complex-1 is internally oversampled unlike the stock synths. Europa sounds a bit band limited when compared to other brighter wavetable synths but its not a big issue.

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hurricane
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Post 03 Oct 2020

SebAudio wrote:
03 Oct 2020
And if you want to discover the joy of programming your own sounds, encompassing lot of synthesis methods, Thor is best in class.
Yeah, sure - maybe 13 years ago in 2007 when it was introduced.

If you're just counting synthesis methods, then:

THOR: Analog, FM, Phase Distortion, Wavetable
Falcon: Analog, FM, Drum, Wavetable, Additive, Granular, Sampling

And, have you ever heard of Alchemy? :cool:
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chaosroyale
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Post 03 Oct 2020

I hate to derail a VST thread so let me say that M72 seems good, but I think the Legend is better value overall.

OK, as for Thor - "best in class"..what other synths do you think are in that "class"? The only other one I can think of is Zebra2, and I think Zebra2 outperforms Thor in nearly every way, especially for complex sound design with its intuitive modular routing, wide range of LFO/MSEGs and FX.
SebAudio wrote:
03 Oct 2020
If you look at a synth « stand alone » just playing presets and performing then there’s no way the Reason synths are as much « great ».
But in the context of the rack, in a whole mix, they’re great.
And if you want to discover the joy of programming your own sounds, encompassing lot of synthesis methods, Thor is best in class.

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SebAudio
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Post 04 Oct 2020

Sorry to derail the thread too.
Zebra and Falcon and, in its way, Reaktor Blocks are in the same « class » as Thor in my mind. When I say Thor is « best in its class », I don’t mean only « pure power » or « sound quality » : I take into account the UI, the workflow, the limitations. How many (not commun and useable) sounds did I make on Thor ? Far more than with any other synth. If you want to use your own sounds, being able to make them is far more important than having a (little more) « superior » synth.

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eXode
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Post 04 Oct 2020

Maybe stating the obvious here but The Legend has different options on the back where you can loose it up a bit and also make it grittier.

I think the reason The Legend is "clean" by default is many users don't want their synths to sound too analogue, strangely enough. If you already own The Legend I'd suggest tweaking those parameters before shelling out €100 for another minimoog emulation.

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hurricane
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Post 04 Oct 2020

SebAudio wrote:
04 Oct 2020
Sorry to derail the thread too.
I take into account the UI, the workflow, the limitations. How many (not commun and useable) sounds did I make on Thor ? Far more than with any other synth. If you want to use your own sounds, being able to make them is far more important than having a (little more) « superior » synth.
That's not how best in class works. My old and ancient shitty pick up truck is not "best in class" because it's red and red is my favorite color, and not because I drive it the most, and not because it carries more stuff than my other cars.
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tallguy
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Post 04 Oct 2020

So I'm doing a quick and dirty test. Just comparing the oscillators on both Legend and M72, it's pretty obvious they're very different beasts. This is comparing the square wave from both. Filter wide, just one oscillator set to square wave. The difference is way more than just what a "slop" or "drift" setting can account for and very noticeable in the sound. This goes for every waveform I tested

White is Legend, orange is M72

Oscilloscope:
Image


Spectrum:
Image

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Loque
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Post 04 Oct 2020

tallguy wrote:
04 Oct 2020
So I'm doing a quick and dirty test. Just comparing the oscillators on both Legend and M72, it's pretty obvious they're very different beasts. This is comparing the square wave from both. Filter wide, just one oscillator set to square wave. The difference is way more than just what a "slop" or "drift" setting can account for and very noticeable in the sound. This goes for every waveform I tested

White is Legend, orange is M72

Oscilloscope:
Image


Spectrum:
Image
Looks just like one is with a bit more harmonics, maybe just an always on resonating filter with saturation. Try the settings on The Legend, like drive, feedback, increase Reso, ...
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eXode
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Post 04 Oct 2020

A quick glance at the scope shot of the square waveform suggest that the Model 72 filter doesn't open as much as The Legend.

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hurricane
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Post 04 Oct 2020

Whatever it is, you can clearly hear the difference between Legend and M72. And whatever that is, I prefer the sound and character of M72. No matter how much you mess with the settings on the back of the Legend, it's not going to sound like M72. You can get pretty close in terms of the overall patch, but the 'extra sauce' is missing from the Legend. I don't know if this extra sauce is authentic to the real instrument, but I like it, and I prefer it to Synapse's sound.

If I had to pick between the two, I would pick Model 72 because 1) I hate the Legend's gui and Richard's insistence on fitting his designs into a rack device. I think the VST suffers greatly because of this (Obsession too) and I hope he breaks free of this for future instruments and 2) M72's 'extra sauce' just tastes too good.

The $79 intro+coupon price goes 'till October 29th, 2020 - and while I am still demoing M72, I have a pretty strong feeling I'll be buying it and most likely using it over other emulations. It sounds too awesome not to!
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tallguy
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Post 04 Oct 2020

hurricane wrote:
04 Oct 2020
...

The $79 intro+coupon price goes 'till October 29th, 2020

...
Coupon? What coupon?

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tallguy
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Post 04 Oct 2020

eXode wrote:
04 Oct 2020
A quick glance at the scope shot of the square waveform suggest that the Model 72 filter doesn't open as much as The Legend.
Actually, it's the other way around. The M72 goes way above 20k.

So far, the differences I see between the two are:
  • The square waves on the M72 have harmonics that the Legends doesn't have, clearly visible on a sonogram (and audible)
  • The distortion on the M72 is way more aggressive
  • Envelopes on M72 can make some seriously percussive sounds, very snappy
  • Presets on The Legend come in at an acceptable level. M72's presets have the volume button set to 10 and often
    go in the red

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manisnotabird
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Location: Austin, TX

Post 12 Oct 2020

IIRC from earlier videos, the place where software most failed to sound like analog hardware is a.) audio-rate modulation and b.) high feedback settings. Would be curious if the Softube does better in those regards.

drloop
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Post 14 Oct 2020

selig wrote:
01 Oct 2020
tallguy wrote:
01 Oct 2020
Being quite familiar with Legend, I instantly noticed the difference when trying out Model 72. It's way dirtier and grittier sounding. Almost as if they made a caricature of what most people imagine an old synth sounds like.
I've long felt a lot of "vintage" gear is a caricature of the original, like some early "tube" mic preamps that were dirty as hell no matter the settings.
The difference:
The vintage gear was doing everything it could do to sound clean, with the "character" coming from (mostly) unwanted side effects.
The copies start from the other end, doing everything they can to sound "dirty". I'm guessing they don't want their customers to miss the effect to subtlety, so they make sure you can "appreciate" the character! ;)
Yeah this is my experience too!
Vintage as a feature! If I compare vintage hardware to soft emulations the hardware (almost) always sounds more clean. Are all the companies copying unrestored gear! :)

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Boombastix
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Post 14 Oct 2020

If you look at this vid, it seems it is a dead race between M72 and Legend. For monophonic dry sounds that is.

Legend has FX, 8 voice poly, and a 12dB filter. Soooo, it can do nice OB style sounds too. To me that is very useful. Or maybe I should say 6-voice 2-osc poly synths. So no need to fire up my old power sucking best... :lol:

The M72 Doubler sounds great. The vid didn't compare Doubler vs Unison.

M72 sounds great, but adds very little if you already have The Legend, imo. Legends 8 voices brings it into a new territory and that is a winner to me. Combined with a 12dB filter, then yeah...

I'm sure M72 owners will be super happy in any case.

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miscend
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Post 14 Oct 2020

Yeah M72 makes alot of sense if you're invested in the Softube modular ecosystem where you can use the modules polyphonically.

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