SoundToys are not "dry" and produce noise

[Loque]

Just realized, that Soundtoys devices are not always full dry if you turn the mix knob to full dry. They always change the sound! So keep this in mind if you add them to your chain.

I also noted that some devices produce noise, especially the filter produces noise around the frequency point. This might be intended to add some analog flavor. But there are a few weird things:
* It is alwas there and get very loud (turn input down and output full up, than add some gain with distortions, compressors and stuff like that)
* They change the gain of the noise if the VST window is open or closed (you get it? They change the overall sound if YOU open the window and "focus" on it !)

So in fact, they have an impact to your overall sound (not only the channel) if you add them and they change the sound in unpredictable ways. While some may argue "hey, its analog", for me it is clearly a bug and i want to disable it if it tries to "simulate analog gear".

I contact support a few days back, but did not get any response yet. I keep you updated. In the meantime, you should keep the mentioned things in mind when you use them...

[Boombastix]

Many of them have this distortion/drive circuit on the input/output. You can select several different types, maybe check if it is that.

[Loque]

Many of them have this distortion/drive circuit on the input/output. You can select several different types, maybe check if it is that.

I used a Clean model on the filter, no input signal, set to full dry and i got a noise floor in the mix.

And on top the signal got louder when i opened the VST window.

Well, i wait what the support will say. It's now 1 week and i did not got a response.

[DaveyG]

Of course, you could just bypass them. Or not put them in there in the first place.

[Boombastix]

Many of them have this distortion/drive circuit on the input/output. You can select several different types, maybe check if it is that.

I used a Clean model on the filter, no input signal, set to full dry and i got a noise floor in the mix.

And on top the signal got louder when i opened the VST window.

Well, i wait what the support will say. It's now 1 week and i did not got a response.

I was not able to replicate. Maybe I didn't do it exactly like your setup. I did notice once that I had an enhancer plugin that put out a DC offset and that caused distortions in the plugin that was after. A 10Hz High Pass filter in between fixed it.

[Loque]

I did some additional research. I could not get the wet/dry thing again now, where i still had a audio sginal/noise coming from the device. Maybe i had still 0.0...1% wet signal, i dont know.

But i checked, how dry the signal really is in general and noticed for FilterFreak that it still produces some filtering resulting in a changed frequency and phase response. So it does not produce the noise, but changes the signal. YOu need to bypass it if you dont want that.

phase.jpg (139.64 KiB) Viewed 1188 times

I also checked the thing with the window. And i noticed a peak up/down when opening or mainly when closing the window. There might be sometimes some audio drop/outs that causes them, but if you close the window it goes shortly back to some previous setting, so you need to change something within the window. Not sure if this is a Reason thing or SoundToys. Its very quiet, but may be very audible with distortion and compressor, i had Devil Loc after it.

drop.jpg (60.68 KiB) Viewed 1188 times

Summary:
* Now i could not reproduce a continiously generated audio signal, it probably was a left "unvisible" wet setting or some "resting" signal in a feedback loop (still weird, since i reproduced it in a complete clean and empty project)
* The signal IS changed in dry mode (tested with FilterFreak)
* There is a clicking sound, a volume change or some kind of re-verting the settings to a previous setting for s hort time. Such drops can get loud in a feedback loop or change the overall sound in a complex signal path

Conclusion:
Its not as "wet" as i thought with FilterFreak (until i can reproduce it maybe), but its also not "dry" as it should be. Better bypass them if not needed and fadein/fadeout to avoid clicks. Be carefull with opening/closing window when you have a complex signal path which may react agressive to gain changes.

[Loque]

Didnt got a answer yet, nothing. Pretty bad support .

[Boombastix]

Didnt got a answer yet, nothing. Pretty bad support .

I think the dry/wet is for the filter only. You still run the signal through the input and output "analog" stages, so it always on in that regards. That "clean" is probably mimicking a clean pre-amp, so coloration, but less so.

[Benedict]

I am amazed at how many VST (in particular) are less than transparent. I have found quite a lot of things I have tried have a sneaky boost of a db or so even when there is nothing supposedly happening. This immediately makes the unwary think that there is some sort of inherent magic in the plugin when in fact all they did was use loudness to spoof us. I like to know why a device sounds great, what it is doing and all too often it is a hidden gain and/or preset EQ curve.

It is not to say that the plugins don't work or aren't useful, simply that there is a lot of misdirection in the game. With Reason's traditional cleaner approach we became somewhat isolated from that thing. It was what made the old "Reason Sound" thing as other DAWs and VST, in general, tend to be far less honest about what goes on. That said the Master Bus Comp Rack does it too now with +5db when instanced for instant Wow. A shame as it doesn't need it.

[PhillipOrdonez]

I am amazed at how many VST (in particular) are less than transparent. I have found quite a lot of things I have tried have a sneaky boost of a db or so even when there is nothing supposedly happening. This immediately makes the unwary think that there is some sort of inherent magic in the plugin when in fact all they did was use loudness to spoof us. I like to know why a device sounds great, what it is doing and all too often it is a hidden gain and/or preset EQ curve.

It is not to say that the plugins don't work or aren't useful, simply that there is a lot of misdirection in the game. With Reason's traditional cleaner approach we became somewhat isolated from that thing. It was what made the old "Reason Sound" thing as other DAWs and VST, in general, tend to be far less honest about what goes on. That said the Master Bus Comp Rack does it too now with +5db when instanced for instant Wow. A shame as it doesn't need it.

Indeed, that bump was weird when I first tried the master bus comp in the rack plugin

[Boombastix]

Since I have Soundtoys too I figured why not read the manual: It said the input / output at zero approximates unity gain.

And for the modes it says:

There are 7 different available Analog Style algorithms that determine the saturation characteristics of PanMan. The different styles impart a certain amount of distortion to the signal, relative to the style selected, at all signal levels. The Analog Style options are as follows:

• Clean - Maximum non-distorted range, with fairly hard clipping
• Fat - Smooth low-frequency distortion
• Squash - Similar to above but more compressed
• Dirt - Smooth broadband saturation
• Crunch - Exaggerated high-end clipping
• Shred - Lots of asymmetrical clipping
• Pump - Extreme pumping compression

So, I take it, you do not bypass the input/output stages, this is what I have experienced too. Just like some tube compressors, they color the sound even if there is zero compression.

[MarkTarlton]

That said the Master Bus Comp Rack does it too now with +5db when instanced for instant Wow. A shame as it doesn't need it.

You probably have the make up gain turned up(default setting), turn it down to 0 and see if that is still the case. Use a test tone and measue with an analyzer and keep us posted with your results. I have mine set up in a template I made and don't have that problem.

[Benedict]

That said the Master Bus Comp Rack does it too now with +5db when instanced for instant Wow. A shame as it doesn't need it.

You probably have the make up gain turned up(default setting), turn it down to 0 and see if that is still the case. Use a test tone and measue with an analyzer and keep us posted with your results. I have mine set up in a template I made and don't have that problem.

No, there is no drama when the make-up gain is set to 0 and I have that in my template too. My point was simply that for a default patch it is pretty "enthusiastic" compared to Reason's normally sensible/transparent settings. They seem to be playing the VST style game these days.

[Loque]

Since I have Soundtoys too I figured why not read the manual: It said the input / output at zero approximates unity gain.

And for the modes it says:

There are 7 different available Analog Style algorithms that determine the saturation characteristics of PanMan. The different styles impart a certain amount of distortion to the signal, relative to the style selected, at all signal levels. The Analog Style options are as follows:

• Clean - Maximum non-distorted range, with fairly hard clipping
• Fat - Smooth low-frequency distortion
• Squash - Similar to above but more compressed
• Dirt - Smooth broadband saturation
• Crunch - Exaggerated high-end clipping
• Shred - Lots of asymmetrical clipping
• Pump - Extreme pumping compression

So, I take it, you do not bypass the input/output stages, this is what I have experienced too. Just like some tube compressors, they color the sound even if there is zero compression.

If that is really the case i must be careful when i use Soundtoys as i wrote. In my case it added a quote loud noise because Devil Loc was after it and pumped up that low noise massively.

I would like to have this confirmed or not. Nevertheless, the usability has sunken for me for the Soundtoys plugins atm. I am just lucky i noticed that noise. Well, in most cases it shouldn't be audible in a 44khz release, but i can have a impact even than.

[PhillipOrdonez]

Since I have Soundtoys too I figured why not read the manual: It said the input / output at zero approximates unity gain.

And for the modes it says:

There are 7 different available Analog Style algorithms that determine the saturation characteristics of PanMan. The different styles impart a certain amount of distortion to the signal, relative to the style selected, at all signal levels. The Analog Style options are as follows:

• Clean - Maximum non-distorted range, with fairly hard clipping
• Fat - Smooth low-frequency distortion
• Squash - Similar to above but more compressed
• Dirt - Smooth broadband saturation
• Crunch - Exaggerated high-end clipping
• Shred - Lots of asymmetrical clipping
• Pump - Extreme pumping compression

So, I take it, you do not bypass the input/output stages, this is what I have experienced too. Just like some tube compressors, they color the sound even if there is zero compression.

If that is really the case i must be careful when i use Soundtoys as i wrote. In my case it added a quote loud noise because Devil Loc was after it and pumped up that low noise massively.

I would like to have this confirmed or not. Nevertheless, the usability has sunken for me for the Soundtoys plugins atm. I am just lucky i noticed that noise. Well, in most cases it shouldn't be audible in a 44khz release, but i can have a impact even than.

I don't mind noise at all as long as I know where it is and I know how to keep it under control.