PX7 RE or free Dexed VST

[hurricane]

I can relate, the DX7 is a most beautiful construction and so are the other ones in the series. Built like tanks – as opposed to Casio's built like Honda Civics approach

Actually, the Casio CZ-1 weighs a ton and is very well put together! And like the DX7, it has velocity and aftertouch so it's really expressive. It's a very cool synth:

The CZ-1 synthesizer is most advanced in the CZ series. It doubled the memory, was multitimbral, also stored splits and layers as "Operation Memories", added velocity and aftertouch sensitivity to the keyboard, along with programming parameters to control how velocity and aftertouch pressure would affect the sound. It features three modes 'normal' (1 tone 16 voice), 'tone mix' and 'key split' (2 tones with 8 voices each). In the 2 tone modes the chorus setting controls which tone goes to which of the left and right output channels. With external effects the lack of negative velocity volume control can be circumvented and velocity crossfades between tones can be achieved using the separate output channels. Page 12 of the CZ-1 operation manual explains the tone output channel settings.[5] The CZ-1 also featured a backlit display which is lacking on the rest of the series. The only features that the CZ-1 lacked in comparison to some other models was the basic sequencer or drum machine sometimes furnished.

[boingy]

I just couldn't go back to those old hardware synths with their dreadful user interfaces. I never had a DX7 but I had a few of it's rivals plus some rack mounts too (FS1R anyone?). The one thing they all had in common was a fiddly/quirky programming procedure which meant you spent more time writing numbers on a sheet of paper and referring to the huge menu tree in the manual than you did pressing keys. I'm sometimes nostalgic for the old sounds but not for those fiddly little buttons and minimal displays.

[hurricane]

I just couldn't go back to those old hardware synths with their dreadful user interfaces. I never had a DX7 but I had a few of it's rivals plus some rack mounts too (FS1R anyone?). The one thing they all had in common was a fiddly/quirky programming procedure which meant you spent more time writing numbers on a sheet of paper and referring to the huge menu tree in the manual than you did pressing keys. I'm sometimes nostalgic for the old sounds but not for those fiddly little buttons and minimal displays.

Yeah, I totally get it, but luckily we have librarians and editors to help us tame our hardware though. I like having a hybrid setup like that, although I really admire how this guy did things in the 80s - not using any computers. Seems so freeing. That's going to be my goal this year. To do things more like 80s Steve Porcaro:

[diminished]

I just couldn't go back to those old hardware synths with their dreadful user interfaces. I never had a DX7 but I had a few of it's rivals plus some rack mounts too (FS1R anyone?). The one thing they all had in common was a fiddly/quirky programming procedure which meant you spent more time writing numbers on a sheet of paper and referring to the huge menu tree in the manual than you did pressing keys. I'm sometimes nostalgic for the old sounds but not for those fiddly little buttons and minimal displays.

Yeah, I totally get it, but luckily we have librarians and editors to help us tame our hardware though. I like having a hybrid setup like that, although I really admire how this guy did things in the 80s - not using any computers. Seems so freeing. That's going to be my goal this year. To do things more like 80s Steve Porcaro:

That's an amazing video. Does he need to pee or is he on some kind of drug?

[hurricane]

It's a series of videos. Must have watched these a billion times already. Apparently he was high.

[bxbrkrz]

This is a great thread. The only thing missing is a real DX7 Vs PX7. I don't know much about the SY77, maybe it's a better deal than the original MK1 if it's a full MK1? The video was great. Dexed sounded very close to the 2 originals MK1 and 2.
I guess for FM8 to push 'forward' they had to break the DX7 compatibility?

[bitley]

It's more hifi than the og (old generation) DX7 but it's not directly sysex compatible although there are import solutions, I actually think I read somewhere that Dexed can talk directly to the SY, will have to check it up.

(DX7 1983, DX7II 1987, SY77 1989, SY99 1991 - this was a continuous development. Today the Montage and MODX6, MODX7 & MODX8 are new synths building on these concepts - not a complete overview as FS1R came in between - as well as the Motif range, but many years of "new FM hardware synths please" requests has led us to the current situation which of course also includes Korg Volca FM and Yamaha Reface FM)

Yes, this is true for the FM8 and the rest of the synths, compabilty goes only one direction so to speak, most machines and software equivalents can import the DX7 data but not export sounds back to the DX7. PX7 have added features as well such as stereo panning of the operators and Reason's tempo sync standard. The original DX7 had a mono output; DX7II and up are stereo instruments.

And Hurricane; yes, I know about the CZ synths - I've made a CZ-101 video here btw lol

It was my first synth I'd love to find a minty CZ1!

I think Casio really approached Yamaha build & design quality with the VZ-1 which came a bit later, unfortunately way too late (1989) when the D-50 & M1 boom already had ruined the DX7 popularity. The SY77 was Yamaha's attempt to rule both worlds but the M1 was a success story that lasted for many years (1988 up until as late as 1995 I think, surviving the T series and all). As trends comes and goes, FM seems totally "in" right now so I guess the true D-50 revival will come - in 2023

Roland made our jaws drop to the floor with this factory patch in -87 - after this nobody wanted a DX7 anymore

[hurricane]

This is a great thread. The only thing missing is a real DX7 Vs PX7.

I really want to hear this too. Once I find a DX7 it's the first thing I'm going to do. Compared to Dexed and DX7V, PX7 has some weird velocity thing going on and patch volume is lower. If Dexed does indeed sound like the real thing, then the default PX7 sound stands no chance in a DX7 vs PX7 showdown. And I'm not going to want to modify each PX7 patch, because from what I've experienced, it seems to be more than simply adjusting the velocity.

[bxbrkrz]

It's more hifi than the og (old generation) DX7 but it's not directly sysex compatible although there are import solutions, I actually think I read somewhere that Dexed can talk directly to the SY, will have to check it up.

(DX7 1983, DX7II 1987, SY77 1989, SY99 1991 - this was a continuous development. Today the Montage and MODX6, MODX7 & MODX8 are new synths building on these concepts - not a complete overview as FS1R came in between - as well as the Motif range, but many years of "new FM hardware synths please" requests has led us to the current situation which of course also includes Korg Volca FM and Yamaha Reface FM)

Yes, this is true for the FM8 and the rest of the synths, compabilty goes only one direction so to speak, most machines and software equivalents can import the DX7 data but not export sounds back to the DX7. PX7 have added features as well such as stereo panning of the operators and Reason's tempo sync standard. The original DX7 had a mono output; DX7II and up are stereo instruments.

This is a great thread. The only thing missing is a real DX7 Vs PX7.

I really want to hear this too. Once I find a DX7 it's the first thing I'm going to do. Compared to Dexed and DX7V, PX7 has some weird velocity thing going on and patch volume is lower. If Dexed does indeed sound like the real thing, then the default PX7 sound stands no chance in a DX7 vs PX7 showdown. And I'm not going to want to modify each PX7 patch, because from what I've experienced, it seems to be more than simply adjusting the velocity.

I can't wait for that DX7 VS PX7 SMACKDOWN!
So... What's the magic sauce with the original DX7? Why is it so hard to reproduce faithfully? Do they need to model its circuitry too?

Bitley's video with thet PX7 TX-816 sounds fantastic.

[bitley]

Thanks!

Really - a hw DX7 sounds quite boring if not connected properly with effects and so on. It's a pretty noisy mono instrument and weighs about half a piano (or your three latest desktop PCs together as one). It works with velocity levels 0-100 and usually old synths like these are very trashy these days. Compared to PX7? I'd say it looks cool but you can take the audio from PX7. There is nothing magical about the hardware.

Having said this I still want one.

[hurricane]

Having said this I still want one.

With Dexed and Arturia's coming seemingly very close to the hardware, it makes me give second thoughts to going through the trouble of finding a DX7. Will I really use it? Is the convenience of using Dexed or DX7V going to keep me from using the hardware? I mean, since they're soooooo close.

Anywho, I'm sure some of you have already seen this DX7 vs DX7V comparison:

And in case you're wondering, you can pan the operators in DX7V, just like in PX7:

Screen Shot 2019-03-09 at 11.18.55 AM.png (168.02 KiB) Viewed 3350 times

[joeyluck]

And in case you're wondering, you can pan the operators in DX7V, just like in PX7:

Screen Shot 2019-03-09 at 11.18.55 AM.png

Cool that's good to know.

Are carriers labeled a certain way on DX7V? I don't see anything at least on that page with the pan. With PX7 you can easily see which ones are carriers via the diagram on the right. It's those you want to pan...I don't think panning modulators does anything. Or does it behave differently with DX7V?

I'd still love to see an option for assigning keyboard tracking to pan. Curious if any of these plugins would add that. Or does DX7V have that already?

[joeyluck]

Anywho, I'm sure some of you have already seen this DX7 vs DX7V comparison:

Curious that somehow comparing the original DX7 to the DX7V with the velocity range setting of "DX7" was incorrect...and caused the software to sound muffled. And that the correct way of comparing the original DX7 with the software was to use "Full" velocity range and not "DX7" range...

Is this a similar case for PX7? You mention you find it to be more muffled...and that it perhaps relates to touch settings and velocity. How does PX7 compare to DX7V when DX7V is set to "DX7" velocity range?

And then how much of this varies based on the audio signal from the keyboard itself? Which I imagine can vary from DX7 to DX7 given the years.

Maybe PX7 could add a quick toggle as well for an additional velocity range setting? But would Propellerhead do that?

[hurricane]

The DX7V greys out/disables the pan for the modulators. The pan knob is only available when one of the carriers is selected. And the graph on the DX7V tells you visually what's a carrier or modulator:

Screen Shot 2019-03-09 at 12.27.34 PM.png (9.32 KiB) Viewed 3333 times

In this pic, operators 1,3,4,5 are the carriers because they are attached to the OUT. All the algorithm maps follow the same logic.

Not sure about keyboard tracking and pan. Will check that out later.

[bxbrkrz]

Ferrari 288 GTO

[joeyluck]

The DX7V greys out/disables the pan for the modulators. The pan knob is only available when one of the carriers is selected.

Well that makes it easy enough!

Not sure about keyboard tracking and pan. Will check that out later.

Cool. Panning operators certainly helps make sounds wider. It was the other thread and opinion about FM Tines, and the perception that the samples were panned across the keyboard that had me thinking that it would be a cool option to have, as another way to add stereo width.

[hurricane]

Ahh, American Ninja - one of my favorite movies. Lots of DX7 bass in this movie. Check it out:

[bxbrkrz]

One of my fav FM bass line is from Front 242 - Headhunter

[bitley]

Achieving that panning effect should be fairly easy by hard panning two operators & using scaling to max the level of the left one at the lowest & the right one at the highest end of the keyboard. Balancing this with the rest ... but it would take some work. Try it

[bxbrkrz]

[hurricane]

I spent most of the weekend taking a closer look at all the DX7 emulations I own (FM8, DX7V, PX7) and the free Dexed, and came to the conclusion that even if they don't match the DX7 100% exactly, that they all sound close enough, and definitely share the character of the DX7 to not warrant a real hardware DX7 purchase. But more about that later.

Here are my brief thoughts on each, mainly speaking toward the DX7 side of things:

Dexed - the most straightforward emulation. This has the loudest default output of all and the velocity setting is set to "FULL", making patches sound extra punchy/hard/solid compared to all the other emulations. Apparently, based on some Youtube vids, Dexed sounds closest to the hardware. Being the most direct emulation, it doesn't come with any extras, as it stays faithful to the features of DX7. It even models the 12-bit, noisy output, which from what I've read, is thought to impart a warmness and grittiness to it. Also seems to load 4-OP sysex files just fine. Taking into account the price, this is the best DX7 emulation for those of you wanting the closest thing to a real DX7.

Arturia's DX7V - This one takes the 2nd place prize in the DX7 emulation contest. You have to switch the velocity settings to full to get the harder/punchier sound out of it. The annoying thing is that you have to do this manually every time you load a patch - it isn't a global setting you can just switch to. The emulation is very very close, and apparently, out of all the emulations, Arturia's is the only one that has the DX7's envelope bug. The DX7V also comes with additional waveforms, including all of the ones on the TX81z, however it can't import TX81z sysex files, like FM8 for example. But you can manually recreate an authentic "Lately Bass" patch on the DX7V, whereas you can't do that on Dexed or PX7. DX7V has modulation extras galore, and a healthy dose of internal effects. It also models the DX7's 12bit DAC and noise, but has an option for the cleaner DXII sound. The DX7V has the best GUI in my opinion as it is resizeable, colorful, and clearly laid out. It even has a master oscilloscope. The DX7V would be my desert island DX7 emulation choice.

FM8 - I haven’t touched this one in a long time. It was last updated in 2015. Back when i first bought it, I saw it not as a DX7 emulation, but more of as a modern take on FM synthesis. Looking at it now with a different set of eyes, I’m pleasantly surprised at how well it does the DX7 thing, but what’s more interesting is how compatible it is with all of the DX and TX synths. Like, the DX7V, FM8 includes all of the TX81Z waveforms (amongst others) but this is the only DX emulation that loads TX sysex files. So unlike Arturia’s, where you have to manually build a TX preset, FM8 just loads it, and with extremely accurate results. Not saying it’s a 1-1 match, but it’s close. I’m not a fan of the white GUI, but at least it’s clean and somewhat easy to follow. If I had a choice I would choose the old FM7 look. Wish it was resizeable. It has a healthy dose of effects, and an arpeggiator. You can pan the operators, like you can in DX7V and PX7 (but you can’t in Dexed).

By the time I got to testing FM8, I was suffering from FM synthesis fatigue, and I couldn’t tell if it sounded better or worse than the others, and definitely had no idea how close it sounded to the actual DX7. But it sounded like a DX7 to me. Judging from some of the videos out there, FM8 appears to be the least accurate DX7 emulation, but I haven’t given it a close enough look to see if fiddling with the settings would change that. Taking into account the extras available in this synth, plus that it’s compatible with the majority of DX and TX patches, this is a really good DX-based emulation and Arturia’s tops it only because of the GUI. The price is still pretty high for such an older synth - and at $149 I would pay the extra $50 for Arturia’s, but I would snag it during one of NI’s half-off sales no doubt.

PX7 - What I like about PX7 is that it is very clearly and simply laid out. Everything’s on one screen, but unlike Dexed, it doesn’t look like a jumbled mess. I also dig the retro colors. The PX7, like Dexed, is a straightforward emulation of the DX7, offering up no modulation extras, onboard filters, or extra waveform options. PX7 is closest to Dexed in terms of design. The macro sliders are an ok bonus, giving you quick access to 4 sound characteristics. A lot of the classic presets have already been converted for you, and are extremely handy to have. And while PX7 does sound like the DX7, there’s something funky going on with the default velocity setting of the synth. I’m not sure what it is. Modifying the brightness and touch macro controls gets you closer to Dexed or DX7V, but there’s still something a little off on PX7’s sound. It also doesn’t help that the default volume is dramatically lower than the other emulations. With some tweaking, you can get things sounding like the others, and if it involved simply flicking a switch like in DX7V, then that would be great, however that is not the case. I’m not saying the default sound is horrible by any means, but when you compare it to Dexed, for example, the difference is clear. That being said, if you are looking for a classic DX7 inspired RE, this is the only one to get. The shop has 3 other FM synths, but 2 of those are 4 operators synths, while the third one, although having 6 operators, is more of a modern take on FM synthesis and is not compatible with the DX library of patches.

I gotta say, reading the manuals of each synth was really interesting and I definitely learned more than I expected to learn. Worth the read if you are into FM synthesis or the history of the DX7.

So now, about buying a hardware DX7. I just don’t think it’s worth it. There are lots of psychos out there who think their DX7 is worth $600. You guys are f*cking crazy. Luckily there are also a lot of people putting a more reasonable price on it - but they’re in Japan and shipping is a shit ton. The rest have a starting bid on their DX7s anywhere between $350 - $450, and that’s better, but by the time the auction is over it’ll be near the $500 mark. No thanks. If I REALLY wanted one, I might pay that, but I’m good with the DX7 emulations.

However, there ARE some TX7s out there that you can snag for under $200, offering the exact same sound as the DX7 (because the TX7 is the desktop module version of the DX7) with the only negative being that you can’t modify the sound without another DX7 or an editor. Well hell, that’s fine with me! Dexed will be my editor. I’d pay $200 for that authentic DX7 sound! And so I found a TX7, and it is currently on its way to me.

Can’t wait.

[joeyluck]

I spent most of the weekend taking a closer look at all the DX7 emulations I own (FM8, DX7V, PX7) and the free Dexed, and came to the conclusion that even if they don't match the DX7 100% exactly, that they all sound close enough, and definitely share the character of the DX7 to not warrant a real hardware DX7 purchase. But more about that later.

Here are my brief thoughts on each, mainly speaking toward the DX7 side of things:

Dexed - the most straightforward emulation. This has the loudest default output of all and the velocity setting is set to "FULL", making patches sound extra punchy/hard/solid compared to all the other emulations. Apparently, based on some Youtube vids, Dexed sounds closest to the hardware. Being the most direct emulation, it doesn't come with any extras, as it stays faithful to the features of DX7. It even models the 12-bit, noisy output, which from what I've read, is thought to impart a warmness and grittiness to it. Also seems to load 4-OP sysex files just fine. Taking into account the price, this is the best DX7 emulation for those of you wanting the closest thing to a real DX7.

Arturia's DX7V - This one takes the 2nd place prize in the DX7 emulation contest. You have to switch the velocity settings to full to get the harder/punchier sound out of it. The annoying thing is that you have to do this manually every time you load a patch - it isn't a global setting you can just switch to. The emulation is very very close, and apparently, out of all the emulations, Arturia's is the only one that has the DX7's envelope bug. The DX7V also comes with additional waveforms, including all of the ones on the TX81z, however it can't import TX81z sysex files, like FM8 for example. But you can manually recreate an authentic "Lately Bass" patch on the DX7V, whereas you can't do that on Dexed or PX7. DX7V has modulation extras galore, and a healthy dose of internal effects. It also models the DX7's 12bit DAC and noise, but has an option for the cleaner DXII sound. The DX7V has the best GUI in my opinion as it is resizeable, colorful, and clearly laid out. It even has a master oscilloscope. The DX7V would be my desert island DX7 emulation choice.

FM8 - I haven’t touched this one in a long time. It was last updated in 2015. Back when i first bought it, I saw it not as a DX7 emulation, but more of as a modern take on FM synthesis. Looking at it now with a different set of eyes, I’m pleasantly surprised at how well it does the DX7 thing, but what’s more interesting is how compatible it is with all of the DX and TX synths. Like, the DX7V, FM8 includes all of the TX81Z waveforms (amongst others) but this is the only DX emulation that loads TX sysex files. So unlike Arturia’s, where you have to manually build a TX preset, FM8 just loads it, and with extremely accurate results. Not saying it’s a 1-1 match, but it’s close. I’m not a fan of the white GUI, but at least it’s clean and somewhat easy to follow. If I had a choice I would choose the old FM7 look. Wish it was resizeable. It has a healthy dose of effects, and an arpeggiator. You can pan the operators, like you can in DX7V and PX7 (but you can’t in Dexed).

By the time I got to testing FM8, I was suffering from FM synthesis fatigue, and I couldn’t tell if it sounded better or worse than the others, and definitely had no idea how close it sounded to the actual DX7. But it sounded like a DX7 to me. Judging from some of the videos out there, FM8 appears to be the least accurate DX7 emulation, but I haven’t given it a close enough look to see if fiddling with the settings would change that. Taking into account the extras available in this synth, plus that it’s compatible with the majority of DX and TX patches, this is a really good DX-based emulation and Arturia’s tops it only because of the GUI. The price is still pretty high for such an older synth - and at $149 I would pay the extra $50 for Arturia’s, but I would snag it during one of NI’s half-off sales no doubt.

PX7 - What I like about PX7 is that it is very clearly and simply laid out. Everything’s on one screen, but unlike Dexed, it doesn’t look like a jumbled mess. I also dig the retro colors. The PX7, like Dexed, is a straightforward emulation of the DX7, offering up no modulation extras, onboard filters, or extra waveform options. PX7 is closest to Dexed in terms of design. The macro sliders are an ok bonus, giving you quick access to 4 sound characteristics. A lot of the classic presets have already been converted for you, and are extremely handy to have. And while PX7 does sound like the DX7, there’s something funky going on with the default velocity setting of the synth. I’m not sure what it is. Modifying the brightness and touch macro controls gets you closer to Dexed or DX7V, but there’s still something a little off on PX7’s sound. It also doesn’t help that the default volume is dramatically lower than the other emulations. With some tweaking, you can get things sounding like the others, and if it involved simply flicking a switch like in DX7V, then that would be great, however that is not the case. I’m not saying the default sound is horrible by any means, but when you compare it to Dexed, for example, the difference is clear. That being said, if you are looking for a classic DX7 inspired RE, this is the only one to get. The shop has 3 other FM synths, but 2 of those are 4 operators synths, while the third one, although having 6 operators, is more of a modern take on FM synthesis and is not compatible with the DX library of patches.

I gotta say, reading the manuals of each synth was really interesting and I definitely learned more than I expected to learn. Worth the read if you are into FM synthesis or the history of the DX7.

So now, about buying a hardware DX7. I just don’t think it’s worth it. There are lots of psychos out there who think their DX7 is worth $600. You guys are f*cking crazy. Luckily there are also a lot of people putting a more reasonable price on it - but they’re in Japan and shipping is a shit ton. The rest have a starting bid on their DX7s anywhere between $350 - $450, and that’s better, but by the time the auction is over it’ll be near the $500 mark. No thanks. If I REALLY wanted one, I might pay that, but I’m good with the DX7 emulations.

However, there ARE some TX7s out there that you can snag for under $200, offering the exact same sound as the DX7 (because the TX7 is the desktop module version of the DX7) with the only negative being that you can’t modify the sound without another DX7 or an editor. Well hell, that’s fine with me! Dexed will be my editor. I’d pay $200 for that authentic DX7 sound! And so I found a TX7, and it is currently on its way to me.

Can’t wait.

Excellent detailed review

I was wondering about some of this above, based on the video you posted where he talks about DX7V being a bit dull when the velocity settings are set to "DX7" and not "Full." And the perception of PX7 being dull in comparison to Dexed... I mean certainly the setting of "DX7" should be closest to the original right? Why would they include it?

Is the duller sound that comes from emulating the DX7 velocity range more representative of the DX7 hardware? And might the DX7V when set to "DX7" and the sound of the PX7 be closer to each other and the original? Just a thought since both are described as dull in comparison to Dexed or when DX7V's velocity range is set to Full rather than "DX7."

[hurricane]

I have no idea, but as soon as I get my TX7 I will let you know.

[bitley]

The most recent theory posted by a very trustworthy individual on Gearslutz is one I am buying anyway and I've said it before but here goes; Yamaha were collaborating with Sequential and Roland on the MIDI specification so they were well aware of the velocity settings being 0-127 BUT they chose the DX7 to only transmit values between 0-100. The theory is that they thought the extra "27" would be harder to use musically as the sounds would be so nasty (bright, distorted-like) at those levels. They got a lot of criticism for this as velocity sensitive synthesizers & controllers became common - there weren't many of them in 1982-83 when the DX7 was finalised and released. So the DX7II went full spectrum. As for second hand deals on the older hardware I'd again suggest the SY77 or even SY99 as they are much more powerful and fun to use and explore than the DX7 - and people today, yourselves included (seemingly) do not recognise these, but we who were there do. These were the follow-ups and they had lots of additions and even deeper FM functions while of course retaining everything the DX7 and DX7II series ever had. They are not as widely known today which means they silly enough actually can be found cheaper than the original DX7. For the ones (with hardware lust) who can afford it though I am sure the new MODX series would be even cooler instruments to explore.

Now all owners of WBF R2 might be happy to know that there are several multisampled DX7 sounds (from the actual DX7 of course) in the refill - so that can be an alternative way (of hearing the DX7) as well

[hurricane]

This is worth a watch: