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Nice! Thanks for clarification. That made me think about upgradesupersplaron wrote: ↑01 Jun 2018Hey there! Stefan from Propellerhead here again. I just wanted to clarify one thing that Lars got wrong:
All Reason 10 owners get Europa by Reason VST/AU.
Upgrade to Reason 10, and you will get Europa VST. Buy Reason 10 full version, and you will get Europa VST.
You could consider Europa by Reason VST/AU to be a part of Reason 10, so if you get Reason 10, you also get the VST/AU. Period.
Thanks.
All this talk about Props making it easy to port RE to VST and the whole time Im thinking this^. Any developer (aside from maybe IDT devices) could make VST versions of their products, they just choose not to. A good portion of the work has already been done. They wouldn't need Propellerhead to make that happen.avasopht wrote: ↑01 Jun 2018No, there is definitely no porting of Europa required. Ditto for the web version.EnochLight wrote: ↑31 May 2018
Counterpoint: perhaps there is no intention to do any of that. Perhaps Europa VST was simply a “one off” product to draw attention to Reason? Perhaps it’s not an automated process and required a ton of work, and porting RE to VST is no simple task?
*shrugs*
The Rack Extension bytecode only needs to be submitted once with assets and Lua scripts. With that the code can actually support any platform without requiring a change. All it requires is for propellerhead to create a platform shell once, which they have now done.
That's exactly what the SDK was intended for, and what llvm bytecode allows for.
This Europa VST means every rack extension instrument thus far can be made a VST and run in the browser without a single change.
I have to step in and disagree here, speaking only as a single developer in the RE field.QVprod wrote: All this talk about Props making it easy to port RE to VST and the whole time Im thinking this^. Any developer (aside from maybe IDT devices) could make VST versions of their products, they just choose not to. A good portion of the work has already been done. They wouldn't need Propellerhead to make that happen.
I actually think we're in agreement actually. Not diving into it thus far is a choice based on the expense and amount of work required. I wasn't implying laziness or lack of will.selig wrote: ↑01 Jun 2018I have to step in and disagree here, speaking only as a single developer in the RE field.QVprod wrote: All this talk about Props making it easy to port RE to VST and the whole time Im thinking this^. Any developer (aside from maybe IDT devices) could make VST versions of their products, they just choose not to. A good portion of the work has already been done. They wouldn't need Propellerhead to make that happen.
I DO want to make VST versions of my products, but the expense and specific skill set is outside of the possibilities for me at present.
I actually DO need the Props (or some similar 3rd party) to make this happen. It’s not just about porting the code to VST. It’s also about learning the SDK, hiring VST proficient coders, hiring someone to setup an e-commerce site, doing the marketing, paying for decent copy protection (or accepting being cracked on release), testing on every possible host/version on every possible platform, providing support for every host/platform, and probably many more things I’ve not yet thought of at present.
It would likely more than triple or quadruple my workload, and cost me thousands per VST just to get setup and running.
If the Props ever decide to take this route, I’ll be very interested in using their services and happy to share a cut of my profits for the privilege as opposed to paying upfront out of pocket expenses.
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Too soon?
Lol, yeah I know. That was my passive-aggressive way of saying WTF PROPS, EUROPA DOESNT REMEMBER ITS SIZE WTF WTF ARGH ARE YOU SERIOUS WHY DONT YOU ASK U-HE HOW THEY DO IT?!?!?!
Why? FL Studio has been doing this for years. All the stock instruments from Pro Tools (albeit owned by AIR and not AVID) can be purchased for use in any DAW. This move is nothing new as far as DAW makers go.Reasonable man wrote: ↑01 Jun 2018I have no doubt it this kind of move is frowned on by other Daw makers and the once adamant 'Reason phiolosophy' is now indeed a miraculous transformation of principle. Times they are a changing.
Some DAWS like Bitwig allow you to modulate all the parameters quite easily.Ahornberg wrote: ↑02 Jun 2018One drawback of releasing REs as VSTs is you can't use CV inputs. Take Europa VST and try to use CV inputs in the modulation matrix. In a future update, maybe CV inputs and CV outputs could be mapped to MIDI CC (14bit preferred).
For Propellerhead and also for RE manufacturers too, being able to sell the same product in a different format to a wider range of customers is an advantage. Personally I would like to see a Reason Rack VST where I can load REs. But I guess we will not see this coming.
Wait.. WHAT? Of course you can use CV inputs with Europa VST, and virtually any other VST in Reason as well! That's why there is a CV input programmer in the dropdown menu of the VST Instrument rack device.... but as miscend pointed out, Bitwig allows this much easier for all/any VST. That said, I do like Reason's "learn" function for the VST Instrument CV programmer.
Yes, which is exactly what Europa VST seems to be testing the waters with. I think we can all agree that it would be a massive bonus to RE devs if releasing an RE gave them access to have their wares released as a VST for all DAW automatically (as an option). Counterpoint: many RE's are privy to Reason's rack because they only make sense inside of it.
I most certainly wouldn't hold your breath for that one!
In Reason I wouldn't use the VST version of Europa ... I thought of other DAWs.EnochLight wrote: ↑02 Jun 2018Wait.. WHAT? Of course you can use CV inputs with Europa VST, and virtually any other VST in Reason as well! That's why there is a CV input programmer in the dropdown menu of the VST Instrument rack device.... but as miscend pointed out, Bitwig allows this much easier for all/any VST. That said, I do like Reason's "learn" function for the VST Instrument CV programmer.
Apologies if I implied otherwise - way responding to your “choose not to” line, because I actually “choose to” and yet still cannot (read: I’m an exception to your assertion).QVprod wrote:I actually think we're in agreement actually. Not diving into it thus far is a choice based on the expense and amount of work required. I wasn't implying laziness or lack of will.selig wrote: ↑01 Jun 2018I have to step in and disagree here, speaking only as a single developer in the RE field.
I DO want to make VST versions of my products, but the expense and specific skill set is outside of the possibilities for me at present.
I actually DO need the Props (or some similar 3rd party) to make this happen. It’s not just about porting the code to VST. It’s also about learning the SDK, hiring VST proficient coders, hiring someone to setup an e-commerce site, doing the marketing, paying for decent copy protection (or accepting being cracked on release), testing on every possible host/version on every possible platform, providing support for every host/platform, and probably many more things I’ve not yet thought of at present.
It would likely more than triple or quadruple my workload, and cost me thousands per VST just to get setup and running.
If the Props ever decide to take this route, I’ll be very interested in using their services and happy to share a cut of my profits for the privilege as opposed to paying upfront out of pocket expenses.
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Ah yes, of course - my bad! That's definitely a Bitwig point.
I totally agree with you. I spent a significant amount of time porting one of my RE to VST and it was long and painful (but because my REs are free and open source (in the VST world) I have different constraints...). I actually suggested what you are talking about to Props CEO: they take care of the (final) compiling, packaging, hosting, multi platform, security, etc... for VST as well.selig wrote: ↑01 Jun 2018I have to step in and disagree here, speaking only as a single developer in the RE field.QVprod wrote: All this talk about Props making it easy to port RE to VST and the whole time Im thinking this^. Any developer (aside from maybe IDT devices) could make VST versions of their products, they just choose not to. A good portion of the work has already been done. They wouldn't need Propellerhead to make that happen.
I DO want to make VST versions of my products, but the expense and specific skill set is outside of the possibilities for me at present.
I actually DO need the Props (or some similar 3rd party) to make this happen. It’s not just about porting the code to VST. It’s also about learning the SDK, hiring VST proficient coders, hiring someone to setup an e-commerce site, doing the marketing, paying for decent copy protection (or accepting being cracked on release), testing on every possible host/version on every possible platform, providing support for every host/platform, and probably many more things I’ve not yet thought of at present.
It would likely more than triple or quadruple my workload, and cost me thousands per VST just to get setup and running.
If the Props ever decide to take this route, I’ll be very interested in using their services and happy to share a cut of my profits for the privilege as opposed to paying upfront out of pocket expenses.
supersplaron wrote: ↑01 Jun 2018Hey there! Stefan from Propellerhead here again. I just wanted to clarify one thing that Lars got wrong:
All Reason 10 owners get Europa by Reason VST/AU.
Upgrade to Reason 10, and you will get Europa VST. Buy Reason 10 full version, and you will get Europa VST.
You could consider Europa by Reason VST/AU to be a part of Reason 10, so if you get Reason 10, you also get the VST/AU. Period.
Thanks.
Even this offer is a slap in the face for Propellerhead users themselves and they can't even see that. This a native instrument that is supposed to be exclusive to those who own Reason, but no... they give it away so it's not, and people swallow the bait that's it's some how dumbed down because it''s not in the rack.. but he reality is, it doesn't make a blind bit of difference, it's still the same instrument. But Reason fanboi's will hail them with gratitude... yet the fundamental problem they are skirting around is the 18 year old tiny rack they created and has never been bigger than it is now in height and actual width, a core part of the program. And remember boys and girls...VST was right on the table 10 years ago.
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