Europa VST/AU!!!!!

[CephaloPod]

Omnisphere and Kontakt in Reason. Europa in Logic. These are strange times.

Question about the web version of Europa? What's the point of having a web version? What's the use of a synth that isn't within a DAW? I must be missing something here.

[rcbuse]

Question about the web version of Europa? What's the point of having a web version? What's the use of a synth that isn't within a DAW? I must be missing something here.

Zero effort playable demonstration.

[guitfnky]

But if there are people out there who much prefer there advanced tools and workflow environment of there DAW ...Then I don't see any migration from there workstation today toward buying REASON simply because they now have a million plus 1 more synth at there disposal.

...but Being honest with how I feel digesting this news these past few hours...I'm like "give me those devices, no problem. But switching to REASON without a basic Sync to browser functionality and many more that ya'll already know about ?!" Nah.....I'll buy the VST Synth all day long and used them in another Environment that I feel is a bit more forward in the tools department.

Europa VST/AU!!!!! Is great news to me!

this is pretty much how I feel. I think it’s awesome that they’ve done this, and I don’t think it hurts in the least. I just don’t see what their goal might be with this.

as a user whose chosen DAW is Reason, that’s the lens I’m looking through, and I don’t see the utility when I look at it from that perspective.

[QVprod]

But if there are people out there who much prefer there advanced tools and workflow environment of there DAW ...Then I don't see any migration from there workstation today toward buying REASON simply because they now have a million plus 1 more synth at there disposal.

...but Being honest with how I feel digesting this news these past few hours...I'm like "give me those devices, no problem. But switching to REASON without a basic Sync to browser functionality and many more that ya'll already know about ?!" Nah.....I'll buy the VST Synth all day long and used them in another Environment that I feel is a bit more forward in the tools department.

Europa VST/AU!!!!! Is great news to me!

this is pretty much how I feel. I think it’s awesome that they’ve done this, and I don’t think it hurts in the least. I just don’t see what their goal might be with this.

as a user whose chosen DAW is Reason, that’s the lens I’m looking through, and I don’t see the utility when I look at it from that perspective.

Simply reaching a different market. The (seemingly large amount of) people who like Europa but don't want to buy Reason can just buy Europa. Sure it may also get some others to tinker out of curiosity and buy Reason as well. It's not about switching. I think it's pretty clear that Propellerhead has never tried to really compete in that sense. Multiple DAW use is pretty common, especially with programs like Reason that are unique to traditional DAWs.

[pjeudy]

The (seemingly large amount of) people who like Europa but don't want to buy Reason can just buy Europa. Sure it may also get some others to tinker out of curiosity and buy Reason as well. It's not about switching. I think it's pretty clear that Propellerhead has never tried to really compete in that sense. Multiple DAW use is pretty common, especially with programs like Reason that are unique to traditional DAWs.

Right!
"Switching" was a general thought process, could also be a stand in for people buying Reason as a second DAW or answering a hypothetical question , would people who have other DAW spend the Money on REASON Because they enjoyed EUROPA, not a statement of "this is a 100% definitive goal of Propellerheads to get people to switch".

Just buying EUROPA is the camp that I'm in as mentioned in my OP.

[FlowerSoldier]

I think it's a brilliant move on the Props part.
Propellerhead products have been like a walled garden for a long time, kind of like the Mac ecosystem.
They make good products.
Branching out will help cement the brand.
Also, the web implementation of Europa is amazing. I'm sure it's all done server side. Maybe that's why there was a problem with Authorizer for a quick minute.

[aeox]

These are tools unique to Reason. That’s the bummer. Reason imposed a certain way of working that gets a certain type of sound. I suppose what I’m feeling right now would be jealousy....I actually don’t WANT the world to have access to Reason unless they jump in the pool with us....but progress shall not be stopped, and obviously I’m not in charge of marketing at PH!

At least we still have VK-2 and Expanse )

[FlowerSoldier]

These are tools unique to Reason. That’s the bummer. Reason imposed a certain way of working that gets a certain type of sound. I suppose what I’m feeling right now would be jealousy....I actually don’t WANT the world to have access to Reason unless they jump in the pool with us....but progress shall not be stopped, and obviously I’m not in charge of marketing at PH!

At least we still have VK-2 and Expanse )

Parsec too...for now.

[ShawnG]

Omnisphere and Kontakt in Reason. Europa in Logic. These are strange times.

Question about the web version of Europa? What's the point of having a web version? What's the use of a synth that isn't within a DAW? I must be missing something here.

As mr. Panda said: a zero effort demo, but also it's a fairly significant achievement technologically as well, and if you can have a web synth, then you can have (eventually) an entire web music application, which can change how music is created, in ways like portability from studio to mobile devices, potential collaboration advantages, and, if combined with really fast internet services, can alleviate processing pressure on the host machine.

All that is WAY down the road, but as well as this synth works in the web version, you can see it from here.

[Oquasec]

Web version of europa is prolly a mobile device thing.

[fieldframe]

The web version of Europa crackles on my quad-core i7 MacBook Pro... so I wonder how something like Expanse would run.

Nonetheless, it's astounding that Propellerhead has a proof-of-concept to compile DSP code written for a desktop-class plugin to Javascript! I just wonder where they're going with it.

[NekujaK]

The (seemingly large amount of) people who like Europa but don't want to buy Reason can just buy Europa. Sure it may also get some others to tinker out of curiosity and buy Reason as well. It's not about switching. I think it's pretty clear that Propellerhead has never tried to really compete in that sense. Multiple DAW use is pretty common, especially with programs like Reason that are unique to traditional DAWs.

Right!
"Switching" was a general thought process, could also be a stand in for people buying Reason as a second DAW or answering a hypothetical question , would people who have other DAW spend the Money on REASON Because they enjoyed EUROPA, not a statement of "this is a 100% definitive goal of Propellerheads to get people to switch".

Just buying EUROPA is the camp that I'm in as mentioned in my OP.

The way I look at it is there's a large, no make that HUGE, market of DAW users out there who have already made an investment in ProTools, Logic, Cubase, etc, and are deeply entrenched in their favorite DAW and have no desire or interest to move to another DAW. This was a revenue stream the Props have never been able to tap... until now, by making VSTs. It's brilliant, it's simple, and hopefully it will be profitable for the Props. More power to them

[Raveshaper]

I think that Reason will become a cloud based web app play space in the not so distant future. I also think that all devices exclusive to Reason will get ported before then. It is highly possible the platform itself will get bought out in favor of becoming a patch bay inside of some other DAW. I mean, Verdane need to make their money back at some point. This will be very interesting to watch from the sidelines.

[madmacman]

I think that Reason will become a cloud based web app play space in the not so distant future. I also think that all devices exclusive to Reason will get ported before then. It is highly possible the platform itself will get bought out in favor of becoming a patch bay inside of some other DAW. I mean, Verdane need to make their money back at some point. This will be very interesting to watch from the sidelines.

Well, then everyone has the best of Reason inside his/her favorite DAW and not lacking *any* of the most desired features. Win-Win for everyone. The world is bright and shiny! Isn't that what you ever have dreamed of?

[Data_Shrine]

I think that Reason will become a cloud based web app play space in the not so distant future. I also think that all devices exclusive to Reason will get ported before then. It is highly possible the platform itself will get bought out in favor of becoming a patch bay inside of some other DAW. I mean, Verdane need to make their money back at some point. This will be very interesting to watch from the sidelines.

As long as the regular software still exists, non-subscription based, and gets updates (including HD), I'm fine with this.

[Oquasec]

Or they can just keep Reason as it is and just do what they did with europa to all the other plugins the devs agree to do

[Undistraction]

Question about the web version of Europa? What's the point of having a web version? What's the use of a synth that isn't within a DAW? I must be missing something here.

Zero effort playable demonstration.

Yes. I think that is the usecase. Trying to sew it into a workable online version of Reason just seems like a pipe dream. Performance across multiple RE devices simultaneously and across multiple browsers and hardware would be deeply problematic.

[Undistraction]

It's the web version that is the really crazy thing here. To be able to do that is close to miraculous without rewriting the code.

I have no idea what the benefit is other than the great novelty, but that is a technical marvel right there.

Having access to a built-in scripting language would be pretty awesome.

I didn't delve too deep into the code, but I imagine there is going to be some rewrite involved at least to remap the UI layers and how the audio code translates into the web audio API. I noticed some .ts filenames which means they're using Typescript and other structure indicates automated conversion of code into web assembly.

I think the problem with that kind of conversion is what happens when something doesn't work as intended. If (and it's a huge if) you can compile to a different language and maintain performance you are in a very tricky situation if a small piece of the puzzle is problematic. What do you do? Do you optimise the original code (which might not be performance for its original codebase) or try and optimise the derived code? Which moves things away from a straight compile. I think that once you throw in this, the need for QA across multiple browsers, OS and devices etc, the web aspect it isn't viable, but who knows?

For anyone thinking that somebody or some people have slavishly written JS and built the UI to mimic the RE, that isn't how this works. The original C# has been directly compiled to a low-level code that can run in (some) browsers, so the marvel is the underlying tech, not this particular example (though perhaps getting the underlying tech working for this codebase has been a serious task).

They appear to be using Web Assembly which has the potential to be the most disruptive thing to happen to the web for years, but it is very early days for that tech.

[groggy1]

Wow, I didn't see this one coming. Kudos to Props for doing something very unexpected!

I can't tell where this is going long-term. Some possibilities:
a) They're just releasing a synth or two as VST to build the brand, make a little $$$, and hopefully entice people over to Reason

OR

b) This is just the beginning... They make it super-easy for devs who write REs to also easily convert them to VSTs, and sell on Props shop. And maybe also open-up the RE host-side implementation so that other DAWs can load REs? And with those two changes, you can imagine that it might finally be time for the big-players (NI, Spectrasonics, etc) to start writing REs.

I.e. maybe this is a road to opening up their ecosystem, and making REs ubiquitous, and Props shop is the one-place-stop to buy them all?


I really don't think (b) is likely. But now that they've surprised us a few times in a row, it's really hard to tell...

[Karim]

I share every single words!
A good move ... and good news for the Reason growing as DAW.

The future is shining!

Makes perfect sense to me.
I mean, I think props should do this with their products sparingly as most of their stuff deserves to be used in the Reason ecosystem. But having their brand-new flagship synth available across all platforms is a great move. Thinks about it. People often complain about not enough Reason users due to the lack of piracy or whatever, well they are never going to go back on their security. But Europa has a chance to be huge on the VST market (and probably pirate market). This means there could be 100s of online tutorials and 1000s of presets for sale over the years.

People will also take it more seriously. Many people will overlook Europa as they do with all Reason stuff, they'll call it thin or not as flexible as other synths, but you never hear these complaints about the 100s of average VSTs out there.

People often slate Reason devices simply because they don't have Reason, they'll talk it down because otherwise it'll affect their GAS (gear acquisition syndrome). They hate not having stuff so they just say it's crap and dismiss it.
Now all the people who want the latest sounding synth etc will get it and it'll get the credit it deserves (I've not used it as I don't have Reason 10 but it looks great).

This will all increase the brand recognition of Propellerhead and bring more people in long term. Also, free editions of Reason Lite or whatever it's called with certain synths like Korg is also a great strategy. Come on REASON!

[Oquasec]

It's the same thing imageline has done.

[Michaellos]

Europa doesn't keep the adjusted scale after reopening the project

[LudvigC]

Anyone else having issues authorising Europa. I can enter the license key, but when I click OK, nothing happens at all.

Yep exact same problem. Have submitted support request, haven't heard back yet. On Mac OS 10.13.4.

Hi,

we have reproduced this problem - it happens if you don't have Write permissions to the global Library/Application Support/Propellerhead Software folder.

The quick fix is to make sure you can write to this folder, either by changing the permissions for the folder, or by logging in as an Admin account.

The long term fix is that we should write the license to another folder - we'll look into it.

Sorry about the hassle!

Ludvig Carlson / product designer

[Electric-Metal]

Yep exact same problem. Have submitted support request, haven't heard back yet. On Mac OS 10.13.4.

Hi,

we have reproduced this problem - it happens if you don't have Write permissions to the global Library/Application Support/Propellerhead Software folder.

The quick fix is to make sure you can write to this folder, either by changing the permissions for the folder, or by logging in as an Admin account.

The long term fix is that we should write the license to another folder - we'll look into it.

Sorry about the hassle!

Ludvig Carlson / product designer

Works.
Thank you LudvigC

[emilng]

Having access to a built-in scripting language would be pretty awesome.

I didn't delve too deep into the code, but I imagine there is going to be some rewrite involved at least to remap the UI layers and how the audio code translates into the web audio API. I noticed some .ts filenames which means they're using Typescript and other structure indicates automated conversion of code into web assembly.

I think the problem with that kind of conversion is what happens when something doesn't work as intended. If (and it's a huge if) you can compile to a different language and maintain performance you are in a very tricky situation if a small piece of the puzzle is problematic. What do you do? Do you optimise the original code (which might not be performance for its original codebase) or try and optimise the derived code? Which moves things away from a straight compile. I think that once you throw in this, the need for QA across multiple browsers, OS and devices etc, the web aspect it isn't viable, but who knows?

For anyone thinking that somebody or some people have slavishly written JS and built the UI to mimic the RE, that isn't how this works. The original C# has been directly compiled to a low-level code that can run in (some) browsers, so the marvel is the underlying tech, not this particular example (though perhaps getting the underlying tech working for this codebase has been a serious task).

They appear to be using Web Assembly which has the potential to be the most disruptive thing to happen to the web for years, but it is very early days for that tech.

Sorry, when I was saying that they had to remap the UI layers and the audio code I meant for the RE format itself not just for Europa. That wasn't clear in what I wrote

As the PH CEO said, "We didn’t recompile Europa or adapt it to the web to make this work..."

I just checked out Emscripten which I guess handles most of the heavy work of translating the graphics and audio so maybe they didn't have to do much work after all. I know Unreal engine uses it and that team has said the translation was pretty painless.

The part that threw me off was seeing the Typescript filenames in there, but https://github.com/charto/nbind supports mapping types using Typescript so that might explain that.

In the process of researching the tech I found some other examples of fully featured browser based synths: https://www.webaudiomodules.org/wamsynths/

I wasn't able to find any source code, but someone who works for a browser based DAW company wrote a Juce to browser converter and said it wasn't too difficult so it's a matter of time before we start seeing more VSTs show up in the browser.

I'm not holding my breath for Reason showing up completely in the browser, but I'm excited as a web developer to the possibilities of having scripting access to at least individual rack extensions.