VST 3.0...when??

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miscend
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Post 17 Feb 2018

bsp wrote:
17 Feb 2018
EnochLight wrote:
17 Feb 2018


And the irony - this was one of the reasons why Propellerhead chose to pursue their own plugin format that they had complete control over. But... at the end of the day, I'm glad they relented and opened Reason up to VST anyway.
Well, they basically did the right thing.

They just forgot to open their REs to the public.

The main advantage of VSTs is that you can use them any way you like (i.e. in any DAW).

The main advantage of REs is that it handles the "nasty" stuff (e.g. cross platform UIs).

btw: I dropped a mail to Mattias the other day, requesting a VST shell for REs. That would be mighty nice, don't you think ?
How would copy protection be handled on the VST shell for REs? And I wonder if RE developers would be happy if their devices suddenly became open to other platforms.

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bsp
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Post 17 Feb 2018

miscend wrote:
17 Feb 2018
How would copy protection be handled on the VST shell for REs? And I wonder if RE developers would be happy if their devices suddenly became open to other platforms.
Copy protection and license management would be handled the same way Reason handles it.

RE devs (and PH) should be happy since they would be able to sell their goods to a bigger market.

p.s.: It could work similar to how SoundToys and Waves handle this: both companies offer a mini-host shell plugin for their own products.

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Oquasec
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Post 17 Feb 2018

That is not how reason works and will probably never be how reason works.
Reaktor is needed for razor.
Reason is needed for thor.
Ableton is needed for operator.
Protools is needed for AAX plugins etc.

They can make a vst version of Reason, they can make each plugin a vst, but that would take too much time and resources and each developer should be able to decide whether or not to do so.
Last edited by Oquasec on 18 Feb 2018, edited 1 time in total.
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EnochLight
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Post 18 Feb 2018

bsp wrote:
17 Feb 2018
btw: I dropped a mail to Mattias the other day, requesting a VST shell for REs. That would be mighty nice, don't you think ?
That would never happen. Not sure why you would even think that would be a viable business.

There’s absolutely no point, in fact. Just say’n.

Why would you think this is viable?
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joeyluck
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Post 18 Feb 2018

EnochLight wrote:
18 Feb 2018
bsp wrote:
17 Feb 2018
btw: I dropped a mail to Mattias the other day, requesting a VST shell for REs. That would be mighty nice, don't you think ?
That would never happen. Not sure why you would even think that would be a viable business.

There’s absolutely no point, in fact. Just say’n.

Why would you think this is viable?
I could be wrong, but I think maybe what he's suggesting is that REs and their licenses would still only be sold and managed via Propellerhead. And then the VST shell would be something the end user would then utilize (similar to how some people use VST wrappers now). Perhaps making it possible to sell Rack Extensions to non-Reason users. The Authorizer would have to be installed and the shell linked to it. Again, not sure if that's what he's suggesting. Perhaps not a bad idea if it's possible.

But I think selling customers on Reason Essentials for $69 as a inexpensive Rack Extension host that can be ReWired is the way to go. Both have benefits of making RE sales and possibly attracting those customers to purchase the full version of Reason.

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EnochLight
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Post 18 Feb 2018

joeyluck wrote:
18 Feb 2018
I could be wrong, but I think maybe what he's suggesting is that REs and their licenses would still only be sold and managed via Propellerhead. And then the VST shell would be something the end user would then utilize (similar to how some people use VST wrappers now). Perhaps making it possible to sell Rack Extensions to non-Reason users. The Authorizer would have to be installed and the shell linked to it. Again, not sure if that's what he's suggesting. Perhaps not a bad idea if it's possible.

But I think selling customers on Reason Essentials for $69 as a inexpensive Rack Extension host that can be ReWired is the way to go. Both have benefits of making RE sales and possibly attracting those customers to purchase the full version of Reason.
Gotcha. I just assumed it was a suggestion to sell RE's "wrapped" in VST, so one could use them in Cubase, Reaper, FL Studio, Studio One, etc. RE is so fundamentally different from VST, I just don't see the point, IMHO. Their whole point is native Reason rack integration, CV, and one-click license management.
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joeyluck
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Post 18 Feb 2018

EnochLight wrote:
18 Feb 2018
joeyluck wrote:
18 Feb 2018
I could be wrong, but I think maybe what he's suggesting is that REs and their licenses would still only be sold and managed via Propellerhead. And then the VST shell would be something the end user would then utilize (similar to how some people use VST wrappers now). Perhaps making it possible to sell Rack Extensions to non-Reason users. The Authorizer would have to be installed and the shell linked to it. Again, not sure if that's what he's suggesting. Perhaps not a bad idea if it's possible.

But I think selling customers on Reason Essentials for $69 as a inexpensive Rack Extension host that can be ReWired is the way to go. Both have benefits of making RE sales and possibly attracting those customers to purchase the full version of Reason.
Gotcha. I just assumed it was a suggestion to sell RE's "wrapped" in VST, so one could use them in Cubase, Reaper, FL Studio, Studio One, etc. RE is so fundamentally different from VST, I just don't see the point, IMHO. Their whole point is native Reason rack integration, CV, and one-click license management.
Well I think the point would still be to use them in other DAWs. Yes, wrapping REs in a VST to use in Reason would be pretty silly.

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EnochLight
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Post 18 Feb 2018

joeyluck wrote:
18 Feb 2018
Well I think the point would still be to use them in other DAWs. Yes, wrapping REs in a VST to use in Reason would be pretty silly.
My point is, wrapping them at all would have been silly. Just use VST for other DAW. It's far easier, and devs can keep 100% of the profit. The strengths of RE are only realized in Reason and its rack, is all.
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bsp
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Post 18 Feb 2018

joeyluck wrote:
18 Feb 2018
I could be wrong, but I think maybe what he's suggesting is that REs and their licenses would still only be sold and managed via Propellerhead. And then the VST shell would be something the end user would then utilize (similar to how some people use VST wrappers now). Perhaps making it possible to sell Rack Extensions to non-Reason users. The Authorizer would have to be installed and the shell linked to it. Again, not sure if that's what he's suggesting. Perhaps not a bad idea if it's possible.
yes, this is exactly what I meant !

(and the VST shell would basically be a combinator)
joeyluck wrote:
18 Feb 2018
But I think selling customers on Reason Essentials for $69 as a inexpensive Rack Extension host that can be ReWired is the way to go. Both have benefits of making RE sales and possibly attracting those customers to purchase the full version of Reason.
The problem with ReWire (and similar solutions) is the relatively high latency.
I am currently using my own version of that ("data bridge") and you have to set the output buffer to 4*64 = 256 sample frames to avoid underruns.

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Oquasec
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Post 18 Feb 2018

They would have to rewrite each plugin to not need to use Reason's rack, which would take a lot of time and resources for probably less benefits.
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bsp
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Post 18 Feb 2018

no, they would not. it would work for all REs out-of-the-box.

some music:

don't ask, I just felt like it. One of my all time favourites, in case you*re wondering. I am going to bed, see you soon.

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joeyluck
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Post 18 Feb 2018

EnochLight wrote:
18 Feb 2018
joeyluck wrote:
18 Feb 2018
Well I think the point would still be to use them in other DAWs. Yes, wrapping REs in a VST to use in Reason would be pretty silly.
My point is, wrapping them at all would have been silly. Just use VST for other DAW. It's far easier, and devs can keep 100% of the profit. The strengths of RE are only realized in Reason and its rack, is all.
Same argument could be made for why use VSTs in Reason? They don't fully integrate with the rack. You can send CV to them, but just to automate. And VSTs don't send CV out. Etc.

But the answer is because there are tools people want to use even if they aren't fully integrated with the Reason rack. And there are REs that users outside of Reason would like to use, and of course they would care little about rack integration with a DAW that doesn't have the rack.

If VST developers are selling their plugins through a reseller, the reseller is taking a cut. Plus maybe you're not factoring in development time and cost for a RE developer to port their plugins to VST.

I think it's an interesting suggestion.

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pongasoft
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Post 18 Feb 2018

EnochLight wrote:
17 Feb 2018
pongasoft wrote:
17 Feb 2018
To add to this topic, Maschine by Native Instruments does not support VST3 either... so hard to imagine Reason would...

Yan
While Maschine is popular, it's not like a traditional DAW, so I'm not sure I understand the comparison...
I am just making the point that there are other software, that uses VST plugins as well and that do not implement VST3. Native Instruments is way bigger than Propellerhead and yet they did not implement VST3 for their own software (even if it seems that there is some demand from users). Whether it is a "traditional" DAW is beyond the point...

Yan

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EnochLight
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Post 18 Feb 2018

joeyluck wrote:
18 Feb 2018
Same argument could be made for why use VSTs in Reason? They don't fully integrate with the rack. You can send CV to them, but just to automate. And VSTs don't send CV out. Etc.
Perhaps, but as we all know - VST support in Reason was just a logical step to make Reason a fully-fledged DAW that non-Reason users might consider (and keep current users from jumping ship). I don't see anyone pining over RE's they'd like to have in Reaper, Live, etc over at KVR, threatening to leave their DAW just because they can't have them. ;)
pongasoft wrote:
18 Feb 2018
I am just making the point that there are other software, that uses VST plugins as well and that do not implement VST3. Native Instruments is way bigger than Propellerhead and yet they did not implement VST3 for their own software (even if it seems that there is some demand from users). Whether it is a "traditional" DAW is beyond the point...

Yan
OK.
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LoCress
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Post 01 Feb 2019

Hi. just registered to the forum for this thread

I really hope VST3 is implemented soon.

One reason not mentioned here, is VST3 plugins ability to consume the less energy possible. They will not drag CPU when they are not used. This is a very big difference compared to VST2 in terms of performance. Especially for laptops.

Using Patchwork will not make any difference, btw.
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