How to run loads more VSTs without buying a new CPU

Discuss VST stuff here!
danc
Posts: 1017
Joined: 14 Oct 2016

05 Feb 2018

xylyx wrote:
05 Feb 2018
Can anyone tell me what the most recent version number is for Agent CM on PC? The reason I ask is that it is constantly crashing for me with most of the plugins I try hosting (effects)...fortunately, it is not making Reason crash.
The paid for version of AGENT ($99) is now up to 1.4.1.0. If you look at the version change-log since 1.1.X.X there has been many bug/crash/hang fixes.

However.. I have been running it for days and have not experienced any major crashes... except the following which I can live with...

1. The initial search for VSTs did crash for me (I have about 200+ VSTs and it got stuck half way through). However, as reported earlier in this thread, if you re-run the search again (and possibly again and again) you will eventually get through it. Ok - that's annoying, but worth the patience. It will popup at the end with a list of VSTs that it didn't like - however, what is funny is that it listed a whole bunch of VSTs that I have opened in AGENT and they run totally fine - so ignore the warning list.

2. Don't try and load VSTs into AGENT whilst your sequencer is playing. Reason has crashed a few times when I did this. But seriously... I shouldn't do that and can easily stop myself doing it!

PLUS... it isn't just about using LESS CPU for each instance of VST you are running. If you read my comment at the beginning... you will use ZERO CPU if there is no audio running through your effect VSTs. So - used carefully and thoughtfully, you can add 10s, maybe 100s more VSTs than you could before. So the $99 cost for the bug free version is worth considering me thinks.
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danc
Posts: 1017
Joined: 14 Oct 2016

05 Feb 2018

joeyluck wrote:
05 Feb 2018
I'm curious what makes it different from other hosts/wrappers? Or I wonder if it's a similar case with any wrapper like this?
Any hosted VST in AGENT CM will use ZERO CPU if there is no audio running through it. This is for me the big USP for AGENT VST. Most VST hosts do not offer this feature. As I said earlier in an post, Blue Cat Audio Patchwork and some of their other HOST VSTs have similar technology - but... reading various other forums it does appear that Blue Cat Audio VSTs are not as effective at bringing it down to ZERO, but I haven't tested that myself. I do have Blue Cat Audio's Late Replies and that claims to have ZERO CPU with ZERO AUDIO... so I will test it out.

The main reason why I mentioned AGENT CM is because it is free. Which I know everyone loves free things!
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SoulState
Posts: 308
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

05 Feb 2018

[edit]
Last edited by SoulState on 06 Feb 2018, edited 3 times in total.
:reason:

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raymondh
Posts: 1776
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

05 Feb 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
05 Feb 2018
a very simple and cheap trick: make your decisions earlier.

in stead of running effects live, add them to a track and convert to audio.

The Beatles used to work like that. Bowie too. recorded with effects. Heroes with that Flanger on the bass. not being afraid. decide now! :D
The big problem though, is the lack of a proper Reason freeze function.

I bounce all the synths and effects to audio, then mute the channels and even bypass the insert FX afterwards, and the DSP bars are still up there. Delete all the synths and FX from the song and just leave the audio tracks and it's fine, but very impactful to the workflow to restore the instruments and FX for further arranging.

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miscend
Posts: 1955
Joined: 09 Feb 2015

05 Feb 2018

Magnus Lidstrom said he coded Reason’s VST implementation. Apparently it’s very old code he wrote a long time ago but Props only fairly recently decided to finally implement it.

Perhaps someone can hit him up on Twitter and see if similar techniques could be implemented in Reason to reduce overall CPU consumption of VSTs.

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aeox
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Location: Oregon

05 Feb 2018

If you are looking to buy, you're probably better off spending the money on PatchWork

danc
Posts: 1017
Joined: 14 Oct 2016

06 Feb 2018

raymondh wrote:
05 Feb 2018
I bounce all the synths and effects to audio, then mute the channels and even bypass the insert FX afterwards, and the DSP bars are still up there. Delete all the synths and FX from the song and just leave the audio tracks and it's fine, but very impactful to the workflow to restore the instruments and FX for further arranging.
You are correct that MUTING VST racks doesn't reduce CPU... but you don't need to remove the whole rack to save CPU. All you need to do is click the green ON/OFF switch on the VST rack. You will instantly save CPU.

I so wish that green button could be automated, because if I could get the sequencer to switch the VST ON/OFF then I wouldn't have a need for AGENT CM.,
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33db
Posts: 71
Joined: 26 Nov 2017

06 Feb 2018

TLDR: If you really had any useful information you would just state it not run on like some sort of time share seminar.

danc
Posts: 1017
Joined: 14 Oct 2016

06 Feb 2018

33db wrote:
06 Feb 2018
TLDR: If you really had any useful information you would just state it not run on like some sort of time share seminar.
Shame. Other readers have found that it works.
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avasopht
Competition Winner
Posts: 3931
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

06 Feb 2018

33db wrote:
06 Feb 2018
TLDR: If you really had any useful information you would just state it not run on like some sort of time share seminar.
I'm failing to see what was wrong with the information he shared.

Everyone else seems to have been able to make use of it.

Is there anything specific you had trouble with?

33db
Posts: 71
Joined: 26 Nov 2017

06 Feb 2018

avasopht wrote:
06 Feb 2018
Is there anything specific you had trouble with?
To long didn't read, what could be summed up in a paragraph took several.
This sort of thing irritates me, just as 20 minute youtube videos to explain something that can be shown in 30 seconds of video or a paragraph or 2 of text.

Not only was it a PITA, but you had to purchase some magazine scam in order to get the thing.

This is how I would do it:
Hey check out this freeware VSTHost.
http://hermannseib.com/english/vsthost.htm

WongoTheSane
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Posts: 1851
Joined: 14 Sep 2015
Location: Paris, France

06 Feb 2018

33db wrote:
06 Feb 2018
avasopht wrote:
06 Feb 2018
Is there anything specific you had trouble with?
To long didn't read, what could be summed up in a paragraph took several.
This sort of thing irritates me, just as 20 minute youtube videos to explain something that can be shown in 30 seconds of video or a paragraph or 2 of text.

Not only was it a PITA, but you had to purchase some magazine scam in order to get the thing.

This is how I would do it:
Hey check out this freeware VSTHost.
http://hermannseib.com/english/vsthost.htm
You seem to have missed a few details though. Like, the whole point.

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adfielding
Posts: 959
Joined: 19 May 2015
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06 Feb 2018

This is really interesting. I picked up a copy of Computer Music and gave it a try with Agent CM and... yep, you weren't kidding. Thanks for the tip!

As a handy side-effect, it also lets me open AUs in Reason now as well. I only have one AU-only plug-in that I really wanted to use in Reason, and it's a bit of a faff to use it... but hey, as far as workarounds go, this is a good one.

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adfielding
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06 Feb 2018

33db wrote:
06 Feb 2018
This is how I would do it:
Hey check out this freeware VSTHost.
http://hermannseib.com/english/vsthost.htm
I feel like I'm missing something here - how does this freeware utility aid with VST functionality inside Reason 9.5+?

EdGrip
Posts: 2343
Joined: 03 Jun 2016

06 Feb 2018

33db wrote:
06 Feb 2018
I am awful

avasopht
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07 Feb 2018

33db wrote:
06 Feb 2018
Not only was it a PITA, but you had to purchase some magazine scam in order to get the thing.
What scam exactly?

Other users have tried it out and found it does in fact give massive speed improvements. That pretty much rules it out as being a scam.

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Oquasec
Posts: 2849
Joined: 05 Mar 2017

07 Feb 2018

Seems like the way Reason handles vsts is that each loaded vst seems to be running even when you aren't doing anything with them.
And when you turn the on button off it...oh hell that's supposed to be done manually, I dunno what to think about that lol damn Ima have to stick to rewire for vst support props.
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

chaosroyale
Posts: 728
Joined: 05 Sep 2017

07 Feb 2018

Oquasec wrote:
07 Feb 2018
Seems like the way Reason handles vsts is that each loaded vst seems to be running even when you aren't doing anything with them.
And when you turn the on button off it...oh hell that's supposed to be done manually, I dunno what to think about that lol damn Ima have to stick to rewire for vst support props.
I made a thread explaining how to get round this issue entirely in Reason, and Danc has also confirmed that it works.

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7505475

Right now these 2 methods seem to be the best way to squeeze just a little more DSP use out of Reason, depending on your setup and personal preferences.

Lets hope Props optimize their code and give us a few VST options for further customization. It doesn't need to be perfect, or even as light on CPU as other DAWs (due to the unique nature of cv in Reason I believe this is difficult), it just needs to be better than it is now.

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miscend
Posts: 1955
Joined: 09 Feb 2015

07 Feb 2018

Oquasec wrote:
07 Feb 2018
Seems like the way Reason handles vsts is that each loaded vst seems to be running even when you aren't doing anything with them.
And when you turn the on button off it...oh hell that's supposed to be done manually, I dunno what to think about that lol damn Ima have to stick to rewire for vst support props.
chaosroyale wrote:
07 Feb 2018

I made a thread explaining how to get round this issue entirely in Reason, and Danc has also confirmed that it works.

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7505475

Right now these 2 methods seem to be the best way to squeeze just a little more DSP use out of Reason, depending on your setup and personal preferences.

Lets hope Props optimize their code and give us a few VST options for further customization. It doesn't need to be perfect, or even as light on CPU as other DAWs (due to the unique nature of cv in Reason I believe this is difficult), it just needs to be better than it is now.
The method described by the OP saves CPU even when the VST is actually running. So it will increase the number of VSTs you can run at once. Well according to the information on the Nyrv website anyway, they did tests with Ableton & Sonar and were able to reduce CPU load.

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Oquasec
Posts: 2849
Joined: 05 Mar 2017

08 Feb 2018

You know what? I think Ima just stick to rewire cuz the benefits of rewiring (At least for me) far outweigh having vst support natively in Reason.
After a certain point you just need to get things done with as little hassle as possible.
So Ima be usin reaper instead of both Jbridge and integrated vst module again and call it a day.
When I feel like using Combinators with vsts I will be doing a lot of bouncing anyways tho lol.

I will also be learning the new plugins inside and out from the reason 9 and up only section as well since the others have been around so long I know the layout by heart.
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

chaosroyale
Posts: 728
Joined: 05 Sep 2017

08 Feb 2018

miscend wrote:
07 Feb 2018
Oquasec wrote:
07 Feb 2018
Seems like the way Reason handles vsts is that each loaded vst seems to be running even when you aren't doing anything with them.
And when you turn the on button off it...oh hell that's supposed to be done manually, I dunno what to think about that lol damn Ima have to stick to rewire for vst support props.
chaosroyale wrote:
07 Feb 2018

I made a thread explaining how to get round this issue entirely in Reason, and Danc has also confirmed that it works.

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7505475

Right now these 2 methods seem to be the best way to squeeze just a little more DSP use out of Reason, depending on your setup and personal preferences.

Lets hope Props optimize their code and give us a few VST options for further customization. It doesn't need to be perfect, or even as light on CPU as other DAWs (due to the unique nature of cv in Reason I believe this is difficult), it just needs to be better than it is now.
The method described by the OP saves CPU even when the VST is actually running. So it will increase the number of VSTs you can run at once. Well according to the information on the Nyrv website anyway, they did tests with Ableton & Sonar and were able to reduce CPU load.
Danc said this as well, and I want to believe, but I suspect that they were not running audio through all the VSTs all the time.

The quote below is directly from the developer, Nyrv (*via KVR forum)

"What the smart CPU saver does do is to cut off cpu usage when the particular track it is on doesn't have sound going through it. If every track in your project is running all the time then you will see a small increase in CPU usage because AGENT also consumers some small amount of CPU on it's own. If however as is often the case, only a fraction of the tracks are running simultaneously then you can see anything from a small cpu savings to a huge cpu savings depending on the overall size of the project and how many tracks are playing at any given time."

If that is the case, my "switch off VSTs using automated combinators" trick will work nearly as well* while still allowing you to save individual patches, use sidechains etc. And will not have any stability issues. And requires no 3rd party plugins!

*nearly, because "agent" can disable a VST as soon as the buffer reaches zero, whereas with automation you have to give a little bit of leeway on each side to avoid cutting anything you don't want to cut. It's not a big deal though.

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Oquasec
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Joined: 05 Mar 2017

08 Feb 2018

It honestly sounds like it's meant to be like that and that "workaround" might actually be how that mechanic is supposed to be used due to how Reason operates.
Bouncing vsts or shutting them off with automation except for the spots with the sounds on them is not too much hassle.

Jbridge can be unused at all costs.
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

chaosroyale
Posts: 728
Joined: 05 Sep 2017

08 Feb 2018

Oquasec wrote:
08 Feb 2018
It honestly sounds like it's meant to be like that and that "workaround" might actually be how that mechanic is supposed to be used due to how Reason operates.
Bouncing vsts or shutting them off with automation except for the spots with the sounds on them is not too much hassle.

Jbridge can be unused at all costs.
If the actual "on switch" itself was automatable, I would agree with you, but it isn't, so I suspect Props didn't think of it. What Props could probably do quite easily as well as make the switch directly automatable, is add the option for "switch off VST when it has nothing in the buffer".

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miscend
Posts: 1955
Joined: 09 Feb 2015

08 Feb 2018

chaosroyale wrote:
08 Feb 2018
miscend wrote:
07 Feb 2018



The method described by the OP saves CPU even when the VST is actually running. So it will increase the number of VSTs you can run at once. Well according to the information on the Nyrv website anyway, they did tests with Ableton & Sonar and were able to reduce CPU load.
Danc said this as well, and I want to believe, but I suspect that they were not running audio through all the VSTs all the time.

The quote below is directly from the developer, Nyrv (*via KVR forum)

"What the smart CPU saver does do is to cut off cpu usage when the particular track it is on doesn't have sound going through it. If every track in your project is running all the time then you will see a small increase in CPU usage because AGENT also consumers some small amount of CPU on it's own. If however as is often the case, only a fraction of the tracks are running simultaneously then you can see anything from a small cpu savings to a huge cpu savings depending on the overall size of the project and how many tracks are playing at any given time."

If that is the case, my "switch off VSTs using automated combinators" trick will work nearly as well* while still allowing you to save individual patches, use sidechains etc. And will not have any stability issues. And requires no 3rd party plugins!

*nearly, because "agent" can disable a VST as soon as the buffer reaches zero, whereas with automation you have to give a little bit of leeway on each side to avoid cutting anything you don't want to cut. It's not a big deal though.
It has to be pretty clever to be able to anticipate when audio is going to be passed though. Especially in Combinators with complex routing. Something which even Props cannot do.

danc
Posts: 1017
Joined: 14 Oct 2016

08 Feb 2018

miscend wrote:
08 Feb 2018
chaosroyale wrote:
08 Feb 2018


Danc said this as well, and I want to believe, but I suspect that they were not running audio through all the VSTs all the time.
I am running audio on all of the VSTs at the same time and I am getting significant CPU improvements.
miscend wrote:
08 Feb 2018
chaosroyale wrote:
08 Feb 2018

The quote below is directly from the developer, Nyrv (*via KVR forum)

"What the smart CPU saver does do is to cut off cpu usage when the particular track it is on doesn't have sound going through it. If every track in your project is running all the time then you will see a small increase in CPU usage because AGENT also consumers some small amount of CPU on it's own. If however as is often the case, only a fraction of the tracks are running simultaneously then you can see anything from a small cpu savings to a huge cpu savings depending on the overall size of the project and how many tracks are playing at any given time."

If that is the case, my "switch off VSTs using automated combinators" trick will work nearly as well* while still allowing you to save individual patches, use sidechains etc. And will not have any stability issues. And requires no 3rd party plugins!

*nearly, because "agent" can disable a VST as soon as the buffer reaches zero, whereas with automation you have to give a little bit of leeway on each side to avoid cutting anything you don't want to cut. It's not a big deal though.
It has to be pretty clever to be able to anticipate when audio is going to be passed though. Especially in Combinators with complex routing. Something which even Props cannot do.
Do bear in mind that there are TWO benefits from hosting VSTs inside AGENT:

A. No CPU is used when there is NO audio running into the VST.
B. The hosted VSTs use a lot less DSP, as shown within Reason, than they would if the VSTs were just added to the rack.

Regarding B: how or why there is less DSP usage I don't know. But what it means is that I can run many more VSTs with ALL of them concurrently having audio running through them.

B is the thing that most people reading this topic are struggling to believe. However... the only way to believe is to try it for yourself and then decide if it is true. Simply saying "I don't believe it" isn't helping anyone - especially yourself! Seriously - it works!
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