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I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 17 Aug 2017
by Marketblandings
Hi y'all....
I follow Grahan Cochrane and his wondeful tutorials on recording and mixing "in the box".
If you know him , then you know that his #1 mantra is to "stop buying stuff" and learn the DAW, plug-ins, mics you already have.
He also says that which stuff you own doesn't really matter. You can make pro-sounding tracks with any DAW and plug-ins.
(He even did one of his CD's in Reason instead of Pro Tools, used a single $70 mic, a $100 interface and mixed it all on $49 headphones in the middle of a noisy Starbucks! And yes, it came out pro sounding)
Well, I have taken his advice for a couple years now and have had good results - up to a point. Long story shortened: I downloaded a free Waves VST to try one out. It's called Waves Audio track and has a tired and sad Windows 98 look. It's compression, gate eq all in a difficult to manipulate package.
But the difference to my tracks is like night and day! More than anything, I apparently have never really heard what a compressor should be able to do. I have been trying to "learn what I have" with the M-Class compressor and, apparently it just barely effects to the results - which makes sense since I have been trying to hear what a compressor does and just not getting it for 2 years!
What's my problem? I needed to hear this 2 years ago because it could have saved hundreds of hours of unsatisfactory mixing/learning!
Thank you. Just venting. Go on with your day.....
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 17 Aug 2017
by aeox
Marketblandings wrote: ↑17 Aug 2017
Waves Audio track and has a tired and sad Windows 98 look.
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 17 Aug 2017
by CaliforniaBurrito
The Cakewalk RE-2A Rack Extension was my "aha" moment and it doesn't get any easier than that!
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 17 Aug 2017
by modecca
CaliforniaBurrito wrote: ↑17 Aug 2017
The Cakewalk RE-2A Rack Extension was my "aha" moment and it doesn't get any easier than that!
If your willing to spend a little more you can get the real thing:
- the real thing.JPG (58.52 KiB) Viewed 3834 times
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 17 Aug 2017
by CaliforniaBurrito
modecca wrote: ↑17 Aug 2017
If your willing to spend a little more you can get the real thing:
the real thing.JPG
Funny - an artist I collaborate with here in my city texted me the other day that he plans on getting one of these for his home studio. I might be touching one of these real soon!
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 17 Aug 2017
by fotizimo
CaliforniaBurrito wrote: ↑17 Aug 2017
modecca wrote: ↑17 Aug 2017
If your willing to spend a little more you can get the real thing:
the real thing.JPG
Funny - an artist I collaborate with here in my city texted me the other day that he plans on getting one of these for his home studio. I might be touching one of these real soon!
Well with free two-day shipping, how could anyone not buy this thing?
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 18 Aug 2017
by Gulale
Well that Grahan Cochrane of yours is nothing but a sells man to me. I know I have seen his videos in the past and I have never liked them. Everything he talks about is talking around the bush. You want great result? I will tell you this. Buy a decent monitor, a decent headphone and treat your room to some extent and you will see how good you can mix. If I was living in the US I would sue that dud for misleading people. Now a days they are so strategical the way they approach their youtube thing. They will come up with a better topic like lets say, 5 things that changes your mix forever. And there is another one. 10 things you are doing wrong. People are lazy they are always after shortcut rather than understanding what is going on. What the hell is 5 thing 10 things? there is no rule. If it sound good it is good. The other time I have seen Change your computer to SSL.
Man I don't go to his video and write bad stuff but that guy is a simple business man who happens to be so arrogant to upload a video in a calculative titles which makes beginners subscribe to his video. Beginners have no clue whats going on they take the so called youtube promoters words like a bible. The fact and intension in that video that you have seen is not about what you can and can not do with that amount of money. He was advertising the gear he used so that he will make you believe that you can get the same result. Or even better then you will be invested on cheap stuff that he advertises for. You want result mix everyday. Learn techniques from mixers exchange ideas with friends. Most of all have a great headphone and somehow a decent monitor if you can't afford the expensive one relatively. **** Grahan and his sales technique he is a sales man. He will kiss anybody's @$$ who manages to throw him a $. To me those youtube channels owners are like striper. How do you know something is good or bad if you don't taste them and stick with what you get with your DAW? my advice to you is, Demo Demo and again demo. See the difference.
Here check this site. There is nothing better than having a conversation with other people who do the same thing.
http://www.cambridge-mt.com/ms-mtk.htm
If you can't hear you can't decide. All your decision will be the wrong one. But your mentor managed to convince you to mix your song in echo chamber.
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 18 Aug 2017
by EdGrip
I often find you have to crank up the input gain on M-Class to make it so its thing. AFAIK the only compressor with a proper see-what's-going-on interface in Reason is
the Mace RE.
Here's a free VST comp with a graph interface:
http://www.pluginboutique.com/products/299
There might be others.
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 18 Aug 2017
by EdGrip
Or, here's a better idea: download FabFilter Pro C2 and use the 30 day trial to teach yourself compression. It's got the best graphical interface ever - spectrum, peak reduction graph, the works.
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 18 Aug 2017
by Marco Raaphorst
It is simply great to discover things.
Never use the rules of others. Just try to discover your own rules.
Anything is okay in art.
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 18 Aug 2017
by Marketblandings
I think you need to see more of his videos. His overall message is to learn, learn, learn your way out of the buying-stuff-as-a-solution conundrum.
I think his equivalent in the Food Network world would be the guys who show you how to cook great, memorable food with cheap canned and frozen ingredients or what's leftover in your fridge.
This wasn't a bash Graham thread (his approach is just undeniable) but a bash the MClass compressor thread.
Out of frustration
Someone suggested below that an input gain boost to the MClass compressor is needed to get good results. I bet that's right because my complaint with it is that it doesn't seem to "bite in to" or "grip" the sound enough.
Seriously, give Graham another try. He sells you no equipment at all.
Gulale wrote: ↑18 Aug 2017
Well that Grahan Cochrane of yours is nothing but a sells man to me. I know I have seen his videos in the past and I have never liked them. Everything he talks about is talking around the bush. You want great result? I will tell you this. Buy a decent monitor, a decent headphone and treat your room to some extent and you will see how good you can mix. If I was living in the US I would sue that dud for misleading people. Now a days they are so strategical the way they approach their youtube thing. They will come up with a better topic like lets say, 5 things that changes your mix forever. And there is another one. 10 things you are doing wrong. People are lazy they are always after shortcut rather than understanding what is going on. What the hell is 5 thing 10 things? there is no rule. If it sound good it is good. The other time I have seen Change your computer to SSL.
Man I don't go to his video and write bad stuff but that guy is a simple business man who happens to be so arrogant to upload a video in a calculative titles which makes beginners subscribe to his video. Beginners have no clue whats going on they take the so called youtube promoters words like a bible. The fact and intension in that video that you have seen is not about what you can and can not do with that amount of money. He was advertising the gear he used so that he will make you believe that you can get the same result. Or even better then you will be invested on cheap stuff that he advertises for. You want result mix everyday. Learn techniques from mixers exchange ideas with friends. Most of all have a great headphone and somehow a decent monitor if you can't afford the expensive one relatively. **** Grahan and his sales technique he is a sales man. He will kiss anybody's @$$ who manages to throw him a $. To me those youtube channels owners are like striper. How do you know something is good or bad if you don't taste them and stick with what you get with your DAW? my advice to you is, Demo Demo and again demo. See the difference.
Here check this site. There is nothing better than having a conversation with other people who do the same thing.
http://www.cambridge-mt.com/ms-mtk.htm
If you can't hear you can't decide. All your decision will be the wrong one. But your mentor managed to convince you to mix your song in echo chamber.
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 18 Aug 2017
by Marco Raaphorst
Simple way to find out people to trust: listen to their productions. See if you like them. Maybe you can learn from them.
On the internet there are a lot of people who have the tools. Who do videos. But what are they creating with it?
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 18 Aug 2017
by EnochLight
Eh... I think what Graham Cochrane offers is a lot of good advice and tutorials at a pretty affordable rate (a lot of his content is free), and it's presented well. But as it is with all things being sold on the Internet, you have to take it with a grain of salt. Anyway, I can think of other sources of info that are far worse, that's for sure! Just look at the years you've spent using his guides - you likely learned quite a bit just trying to squeeze what you wanted out of the MClass comp.
But yeah, there are many plugs out there that just sound simply better than some of the old stock Reason devices. You have to remember: MClass are about 10 years old at this point, and a lot of other stuff has come out since then in VST-land (even in RE-land)! Back when Reason was sandboxed and all you could use was its own built-in effects, the MClass were a breath of fresh air... but that was 2007.
I guess, the bottom line is: I'm not surprised you feel this way. Don't let it bring you down, though. Sticking inside of your core DAW allows you to squeeze every bit of everything out of it, and that just makes you a better producer. But at least you can add anything you want at this point.
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 18 Aug 2017
by esselfortium
EnochLight wrote: ↑18 Aug 2017
Back when Reason was sandboxed and all you could use was its own built-in effects, the MClass were a breath of fresh air... but that was 2007.
They're actually even older than that! The MClass devices were added in Reason 3.0, so 2004.
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 18 Aug 2017
by EnochLight
esselfortium wrote: ↑18 Aug 2017
EnochLight wrote: ↑18 Aug 2017
Back when Reason was sandboxed and all you could use was its own built-in effects, the MClass were a breath of fresh air... but that was 2007.
They're actually even older than that! The MClass devices were added in Reason 3.0, so 2004.
Holy crap - was it 3.0? It's hard to remember. I thought it was 4.0, but honestly - I forget what I did for lunch the day before, so... there's that LOL!
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 18 Aug 2017
by davidvilla
I'm not shocked that you're shocked, OP.
Audio track isn't exactly a new kid on the block. The EQ section is the Q4 version of the Q10 which was released in 1992, and the comp is a simplified version of the C1, which is also ancient. The M-Class devices are simply low quality, cpu efficient effects.
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 18 Aug 2017
by Marco Raaphorst
BTW nothing wrong with MClass. As well as the SSL. Like all compressors, they might work on some material, not on everything.
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 18 Aug 2017
by EnochLight
Marco Raaphorst wrote: ↑18 Aug 2017
BTW nothing wrong with MClass. As well as the SSL. Like all compressors, they might work on some material, not on everything.
Agreed 100%!
I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 18 Aug 2017
by selig
Marketblandings wrote:Someone suggested below that an input gain boost to the MClass compressor is needed to get good results. I bet that's right because my complaint with it is that it doesn't seem to "bite in to" or "grip" the sound enough.
Boosting input gain is exactly the same as lowering the threshold and adding makeup gain.
Every compressor has their own qualities - 'bite' is not one of the MClass compressor's qualities IMO.
Also, every compressor has it's limits (no pun intended, if you can believe that!). That is to say, you can boost input 100 dB and you won't get any more 'bite' out of the MClass compressor.
Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 18 Aug 2017
by Marketblandings
A wonderful way to look at it! Maybe not time lost at all. Thanks so much!
EnochLight wrote: ↑18 Aug 2017
Eh... I think what Graham Cochrane offers is a lot of good advice and tutorials at a pretty affordable rate (a lot of his content is free), and it's presented well. But as it is with all things being sold on the Internet, you have to take it with a grain of salt. Anyway, I can think of other sources of info that are far worse, that's for sure! Just look at the years you've spent using his guides - you likely learned
quite a bit just trying to squeeze what you wanted out of the MClass comp.
But yeah, there are many plugs out there that just sound simply better than some of the old stock Reason devices. You have to remember: MClass are about 10 years old at this point, and a lot of other stuff has come out since then in VST-land (even in RE-land)! Back when Reason was sandboxed and all you could use was its own built-in effects, the MClass were a breath of fresh air... but that was 2007.
I guess, the bottom line is: I'm not surprised you feel this way. Don't let it bring you down, though. Sticking inside of your core DAW allows you to squeeze every bit of everything out of it, and that just makes you a better producer. But at least you can add anything you want at this point.
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 18 Aug 2017
by Marketblandings
I thought of a far better description later: The MClass Comp. is like a device with a wet/dry knob. And it's stuck on about 50/60 wet to dry.
selig wrote: ↑18 Aug 2017
Marketblandings wrote:Someone suggested below that an input gain boost to the MClass compressor is needed to get good results. I bet that's right because my complaint with it is that it doesn't seem to "bite in to" or "grip" the sound enough.
Boosting input gain is exactly the same as lowering the threshold and adding makeup gain.
Every compressor has their own qualities - 'bite' is not one of the MClass compressor's qualities IMO.
Also, every compressor has it's limits (no pun intended, if you can believe that!). That is to say, you can boost input 100 dB and you won't get any more 'bite' out of the MClass compressor.
Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 18 Aug 2017
by Marketblandings
I started with Essentials. With that there is no compressor (or gate) on the SSL strips. I might have learned more sooner if I had had more than just 1 Compressor at that time.
Marco Raaphorst wrote: ↑18 Aug 2017
BTW nothing wrong with MClass. As well as the SSL. Like all compressors, they might work on some material, not on everything.
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 19 Aug 2017
by Ahornberg
Marketblandings wrote: ↑17 Aug 2017
[...] I downloaded a free Waves VST to try one out. It's called Waves Audio track and has a tired and sad Windows 98 look. It's compression, gate eq all in a difficult to manipulate package.
But the difference to my tracks is like night and day! More than anything, I apparently have never really heard what a compressor should be able to do. I have been trying to "learn what I have" with the M-Class compressor and, apparently it just barely effects to the results - which makes sense since I have been trying to hear what a compressor does and just not getting it for 2 years! [...]
Can you explain the difference between the Compressor in Waves Audio Track and the MClass compressor?
Btw, it seems that this VST does fairly the same as Reason's channelstrip on the mixer.
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 19 Aug 2017
by miscend
The MCLASS is more of a mastering compressor really so it's quite transparent. At low levels of gain reduction you can't hear it.
Howcome you weren't using the SSL channel compressors, they have more character and you can easily perceive their effect. Even the SSL master buss compressor is aggressive and full of character.
Re: I'm shocked and troubled about my first VST
Posted: 19 Aug 2017
by miscend
The best mixing tutorials I've seen are the ones Fab does at Puremix dot com. He'll take you from start to finish in the production and mixing of a commercially released track. He also has a few tutorials on how to use a basic compressor, EQ, reverb, etc on different instruments. It's very enlightening to see how the pros do it.
The other treasure trove is Pensado's Place. Just watch all of his in the mix videos. Honestly it will take you a few years to really master use of compression. I'm always learning new things myself.