Audio Modeling's SWAM engine instruments

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joeyluck
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17 Nov 2017

Anybody here using any of the SWAM engine instruments?

I'm particularly interested in the strings; mostly the cello at the moment.
Happy they use their own engine and not Kontakt (while some of their libraries are for Kontakt). Looks intelligent.

http://www.swamengine.com/portfolio-item/the-cello/

Looking to use it with my Roli Seaboard Block.





Thoughts? Experiences?

Thanks! :)

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taddx
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17 Nov 2017

Wow that sounds pretty amazing.

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joeyluck
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17 Nov 2017

taddx wrote:
17 Nov 2017
Wow that sounds pretty amazing.
Yeah it's pretty great and I'm not sure there's anything out there quite like it. Nothing that has so much in terms of expressiveness and playability like a real string instrument. I'm still learning about it as I read more.

More info about SWAM-S for those interested:
SWAM-S stands for Synchronous Waves Acoustic Modeling – Strings.

Differently from SWAM, sound is generated by pure Physical Modeling, so there are no samples at all.

We have performed an in-depth study of the Physical Modeling techniques, especially the Digital Waveguides Synthesis by prof. Julius O. Smith. Using this technique, adding new elements and performing an unceasing fine-tuning, we have built the best modeled Bowed Strings virtual instruments on the market, allowing the real-time control of bow speed, bow pressure, bow position, vibrato, portamento, harmonics, tremolo, pizzicato, and many other parameters in a realistic way, almost indistinguishable from the real instrument.

Bowed Strings

The bow allows the player to continuously input energy and so to maintain a note. This affects the timbre, too: after a pluck, the high harmonics fade away quickly, leaving only the fundamental and some weak lower harmonics, while bowing maintains the rich harmonic spectrum.

The action of the bow which drives the strings is a regular cycle of stick-slip-stick-slip. This involves some interesting properties of friction, the force that makes things difficult to slide.

The bow string interaction is important for another aspect. Over a limited range of pressure applied by the player, the cycle of stick and slip is governed by the standing wave in the string. When this happens the motion of the string is nearly exactly periodic, and it therefore makes a sound with an almost exactly harmonic spectrum. This means that any inharmonic effects of the string are reduced by bowing, which is not the case when the string is plucked.

Helmholtz motion is the name given to the idealised motion of the string during stick and slip cycles.

SWAM-S bowed strings model this complex system using the Digital Waveguide Synthesis conceived by prof. Julius O. Smith, exploiting a complex friction model and adding several elements taken from the SWAM technology created for the Woodwinds instruments.
Folks control this with breath controllers, mod wheels, Roli Seaboards, etc. Or other octaves on your keyboard. And from what I understand, the approach to pitch shift is unique and more natural sounding than other string libraries with sample-based engines.

I'm pretty sold on it at the moment and could really put it to use for a current project. The only downside is Reason doesn't have multitimbral/MPE support; so doing things like applying different pressure on individual strings or bending notes independently of one another using a single instance of an instrument isn't possible. But I can use Garagband for that, as it has support. Hopefully Reason will have this soon.


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EnochLight
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18 Nov 2017

It's interesting.. the first demo videos you posted, I was like - if I close my eyes, I could probably not discern whether or not this was a real cello or modeled/synthetic. But the second videos you posted, where it was Bach and the GOT theme alone... something about it sounded... synthetic. Noticeably synthetic, IMHO. Still, it sounded amazing - and probably the closest approximation of a cello played by keys I've ever heard!
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joeyluck
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18 Nov 2017

EnochLight wrote:
18 Nov 2017
It's interesting.. the first demo videos you posted, I was like - if I close my eyes, I could probably not discern whether or not this was a real cello or modeled/synthetic. But the second videos you posted, where it was Bach and the GOT theme alone... something about it sounded... synthetic. Noticeably synthetic, IMHO. Still, it sounded amazing - and probably the closest approximation of a cello played by keys I've ever heard!
Like many software instruments, I think there's still certain aspects with how you play them that will lend themselves to how realistic they sound. But these seem more playable then most that I've seen with a higher success rate of sounding more natural with the expressiveness and MPE support. What I found nice about the GOT example was the natural sounding pitch bend. With other instruments I've used, I either hear steps, weird formant shifts, odd changes in harmonics and volume, etc. (especially when bending between that many notes). These sound much smoother and natural.

Here's another SWAM example, this one with violin and controlled with a breath controller:



And another with Jordan Rudess with some of the wind/sax instruments:


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EnochLight
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18 Nov 2017

joeyluck wrote:
18 Nov 2017
Here's another SWAM example..
And another ..
Those are pretty bad ass. Some sound incredibly realistic for the most part - like I couldn't tell the difference between a real instrument and the modelling. There was only a few brief moments where I was like - "HAAAAA FAKE"! Amazing how much physical modelling has come along.
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ljekio
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18 Nov 2017

SWAM's wind instruments is fine, if you have midi breathcontroller.

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joeyluck
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18 Nov 2017

ljekio wrote:
18 Nov 2017
SWAM's wind instruments is fine, if you have midi breathcontroller.
Or something like a Seaboard, as Jordan Rudess uses them. But might easier to play for someone accustomed to real wind instruments to use a breath controller. At the same time, I'm impressed with what some people are doing with a breath controller to play stringed instruments! :thumbs_up:

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Psuper
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18 Nov 2017

I stick with purely modeled instruments or the real thing, I've been 'done' with sample libraries for years.

For me personally, I've always liked the SWAM engine stuff, just not enough to purchase as I play many instruments and can't find much value in these. However they've been around for quite some time. The best one out there is Pianoteq, but they only do piano (and other hammer-type instruments), and a good piano midi controller is all that's needed..
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esselfortium
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18 Nov 2017

This sounds impressively versatile for performing with, but my ears aren't entirely convinced of their realism. Like EnochLight, I'm hearing something noticeably synthy about the timbre in some of these videos.

For really far-out atonal cello parts I can easily see the uses for this, but the timbre is a drawback that may or may not be worthwhile depending on how complex and abstract the parts you're planning to play are. For my uses, I've been very satisfied with the Blakus Cello from Embertone's deep-sampled Intimate Strings series. I suppose it depends on what sort of cello performances you're looking to create!
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joeyluck
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18 Nov 2017

esselfortium wrote:
18 Nov 2017
This sounds impressively versatile for performing with, but my ears aren't convinced of their realism. Like EnochLight, I'm hearing something noticeably synthy about its timbre: I noticed it in the very first video, too, though the second one was better.

For really far-out atonal cello parts I can easily see the uses for this, but the timbre is a drawback that may or may not be worthwhile depending on how complex and abstract the parts you're planning to play are. For my uses, I've been very satisfied with the Blakus Cello from Embertone's deep-sampled Intimate Strings series. I suppose it depends on what sort of cello performances you're looking to create!
Yeah it's one of those things that I really wish I could try, because I think so much of it depends on how the musician is playing it and maybe the recording itself? But for the most part, I'm impressed with the sound. I like the engine/approach, and I'm sure if anything can be improved over time, it will be.

Thanks for the suggestion. I actually used the free version of the Blakus, I believe. I thought the demo version sounded pretty good, but the performance was near the same as what I had been doing with Miroslav and others in Reason. To me, the changing in pitch sounds best with the SWAM-S plugins and that's key for what I'm looking to do. Again, I'd be using these with my Seaboard Block. And I also just don't get along with Kontakt and am happy to have individual plugins using their own engine.

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esselfortium
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18 Nov 2017

joeyluck wrote:
18 Nov 2017
Yeah it's one of those things that I really wish I could try, because I think so much of it depends on how the musician is playing it and maybe the recording itself? But for the most part, I'm impressed with the sound. I like the engine/approach, and I'm sure if anything can be improved over time, it will be.
It's definitely cool stuff! I'm impressed by how far this tech has developed.

In general I'm pretty amazed with the quality of the options out there nowadays for expressive organic virtual instruments, whether modeled or sample-based. You could for sure use the SWAM libraries effectively for serious work.
Thanks for the suggestion. I actually used the free version of the Blakus, I believe. I thought the demo version sounded pretty good, but the performance was near the same as what I had been doing with Miroslav and others in Reason. To me, the changing in pitch sounds best with the SWAM-S plugins and that's key. Again, I'd be using these with my Seaboard Block. And I also just don't get along with Kontakt and am happy to have individual plugins using their own engines.
I wasn't aware there was a free version of the Blakus :shock: I know there's a limited demo version of their Friedlander Violin out there as part of the "Arcane" package, but it lacks the portamento slides and some other things that are in the full version, so it's not quite representative of the full product's expressive range.

I own both their cello and violin, and I can say for certain that little to none of what I've been using them for would've sounded convincing at all with Miroslav or other ReFill libraries: the addition of scripted true legato and portamento make a huge difference, as you've noted with the SWAM instruments.

Modern virtual organic instruments have made an incredible transformation, from something that I used to ashamedly bury in reverb and hope no one noticed them too much, into something I love being able to put at the forefront of a mix and craft an expressive performance to carry the song with :puf_bigsmile:
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joeyluck
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18 Nov 2017

esselfortium wrote:
18 Nov 2017
joeyluck wrote:
18 Nov 2017
Yeah it's one of those things that I really wish I could try, because I think so much of it depends on how the musician is playing it and maybe the recording itself? But for the most part, I'm impressed with the sound. I like the engine/approach, and I'm sure if anything can be improved over time, it will be.
It's definitely cool stuff! I'm impressed by how far this tech has developed.

In general I'm pretty amazed with the quality of the options out there nowadays for expressive organic virtual instruments, whether modeled or sample-based. You could for sure use the SWAM libraries effectively for serious work.
Thanks for the suggestion. I actually used the free version of the Blakus, I believe. I thought the demo version sounded pretty good, but the performance was near the same as what I had been doing with Miroslav and others in Reason. To me, the changing in pitch sounds best with the SWAM-S plugins and that's key. Again, I'd be using these with my Seaboard Block. And I also just don't get along with Kontakt and am happy to have individual plugins using their own engines.
I wasn't aware there was a free version of the Blakus :shock: I know there's a limited demo version of their Friedlander Violin out there as part of the "Arcane" package, but it lacks the portamento slides and some other things that are in the full version, so it's not quite representative of the full product's expressive range.

I own both their cello and violin, and I can say for certain that little to none of what I've been using them for would've sounded convincing at all with Miroslav or other ReFill libraries: the addition of scripted true legato and portamento make a huge difference, as you've noted with the SWAM instruments.

Modern virtual organic instruments have made an incredible transformation, from something that I used to ashamedly bury in reverb and hope no one noticed them too much, into something I love being able to put at the forefront of a mix and craft an expressive performance to carry the song with :puf_bigsmile:
It's called PocketBlakus: https://vi-control.net/community/thread ... 2-4.27672/

And I'm sure it too is not a great representation of the library you are referring. I think maybe it's actually what inspired the commercial version?

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esselfortium
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18 Nov 2017

joeyluck wrote:
18 Nov 2017
It's called PocketBlakus: https://vi-control.net/community/thread ... 2-4.27672/

And I'm sure it too is not a great representation of the library you are referring. I think maybe it's actually what inspired the commercial version?
Ah yes, that's its predecessor! Really nice for a freebie. At some point after that was released, its creator performed the cello for Embertone's more extensive library.
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joeyluck
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18 Nov 2017

Here's a good video I came across that does a pretty nice walkthrough of the features and compares controlling it with a Roli Seaboard and a regular keyboard. This is the viola:


avasopht
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18 Nov 2017

It takes skill to play them like the real instruments though.

Scott Storch was known for this.

Sounds brilliant when done right.

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TheGodOfRainbows
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20 Nov 2017

Ok, I love the Sample Modeling stuff. I've had my eye on some of those intruments for years, but being in Reason, I forgot about the idea. But now that we have VST, I'm intersted again. And that free Blakus cello has me installling the Kontakt Player. And after getting that installed, I can't for the life of me figure out how to open Kontakt in Reason as VST, and I also can't get that free Plate reverb that (ReasonTalk posted the review on) to show up in Reason either.

All this verification and installing and serial numbers and registering reminds me why I like Reason and Rack Extensions. I've just spent about an hour doing all this, and I can't get ANY of it to work! Blah! :sick: :wtf: :?: :oops:

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joeyluck
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20 Nov 2017

TheGodOfRainbows wrote:
20 Nov 2017
Ok, I love the Sample Modeling stuff. I've had my eye on some of those intruments for years, but being in Reason, I forgot about the idea. But now that we have VST, I'm intersted again. And that free Blakus cello has me installling the Kontakt Player. And after getting that installed, I can't for the life of me figure out how to open Kontakt in Reason as VST, and I also can't get that free Plate reverb that (ReasonTalk posted the review on) to show up in Reason either.

All this verification and installing and serial numbers and registering reminds me why I like Reason and Rack Extensions. I've just spent about an hour doing all this, and I can't get ANY of it to work! Blah! :sick: :wtf: :?: :oops:
Yeah it's not as convenient as installing REs. I have had extra trouble with Kontakt. I uninstalled it once before, installed it again to try something I came across, and probably will be uninstalling it again. And the uninstall process is nothing but a long list displayed on their site of what to delete. It's awful. That's why I'm happy to see instruments like these that are their own plugins. It's also part of the Reason why I would consider me EastWest libraries and maybe using ComposerCloud.

Not sure why they wouldn't be showing up for you though...

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TheGodOfRainbows
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20 Nov 2017

joeyluck wrote:
20 Nov 2017
....And the uninstall process is nothing but a long list displayed on their site of what to delete. It's awful.

That sounds absolutely disgusting. :thumbs_down:

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joeyluck
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20 Nov 2017

I guess I forgot to mention how I learned of this... which was via promos for the Roli app, Noise (iOS) and the SWAM soundpack.

I don't have an iOS device, and Noise isn't available for desktop, so I started looking into SWAM plugins for desktop.

Noise is free, and I believe you get the SWAM soundpack for free if you own Roli Blocks. But you can also buy it separately. Might be worth a look for those who have iOS devices.

Roli offers Equator for desktop, but I really feel like I'm missing out without Noise being for desktop; as they've been releasing lots of cool soundpacks. Most recently the Pharrell Williams soundpacks (since he joined the team).

I'll be a little bummed if I buy the SWAM plugin and then Noise becomes available for desktop, as I believe it includes the Cello.

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joeyluck
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22 Nov 2017

They just released Double Bass, a new shop, and a solo strings bundle!
New, lower regular prices and Black Friday sales on top of that.

https://audiomodeling.onfastspring.com/

For the strings, they are regularly priced at $120 and on sale for $96.
The bundle of all 4 is regularly priced at $360 and on sale for $288.

All their other instruments are on sale as well.

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TheGodOfRainbows
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26 Nov 2017

joeyluck wrote:
22 Nov 2017
They just released Double Bass, a new shop, and a solo strings bundle!
New, lower regular prices and Black Friday sales on top of that.

https://audiomodeling.onfastspring.com/

For the strings, they are regularly priced at $120 and on sale for $96.
The bundle of all 4 is regularly priced at $360 and on sale for $288.

All their other instruments are on sale as well.
I'm so glad you made this thread. I would have missed the sale. I LOVE THESE INSTRUMENTS. LOVE. I would think this kind of Re would be right at home in Reason, because there are so many parameters you can control to add all sorts of variation and life to the sound.

Also, I like the fact that they take up so little drive space, which also jibes well with Reason, as Props like to keep things light on resources. It sounds VERY good for something that doesn't take up tens and hundreds of GB just for one multisampled instrument. I got the violin and cello, and man I'm enjoying them. I'm working on a demo piece to show them off. I'll share shortly.

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joeyluck
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26 Nov 2017

TheGodOfRainbows wrote:
26 Nov 2017
joeyluck wrote:
22 Nov 2017
They just released Double Bass, a new shop, and a solo strings bundle!
New, lower regular prices and Black Friday sales on top of that.

https://audiomodeling.onfastspring.com/

For the strings, they are regularly priced at $120 and on sale for $96.
The bundle of all 4 is regularly priced at $360 and on sale for $288.

All their other instruments are on sale as well.
I'm so glad you made this thread. I would have missed the sale. I LOVE THESE INSTRUMENTS. LOVE. I would think this kind of Re would be right at home in Reason, because there are so many parameters you can control to add all sorts of variation and life to the sound.

Also, I like the fact that they take up so little drive space, which also jibes well with Reason, as Props like to keep things light on resources. It sounds VERY good for something that doesn't take up tens and hundreds of GB just for one multisampled instrument. I got the violin and cello, and man I'm enjoying them. I'm working on a demo piece to show them off. I'll share shortly.
Awesome! That's great to hear. Yeah they are very light on disk space :) Uses a bit more CPU though, but it's a great tradeoff for me for the expressiveness.

Looking forward to hearing what you come up with. What are you using to control them? I had a difficult time getting results from my basic MIDI keyboard setup that were as good as with the Seaboard Block which makes it much easier for me. Although, when having the "Bow Gesture" in "bowing" mode, I find it more satisfying using a mod wheel on my regular keyboards or an expression pedal vs. the aftertouch on the Seaboard. But fun on anything really when performing your own bows/tremolos. The aftertouch on the Seaboard is really great when in "Expression" mode for the bow gesture.

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TheGodOfRainbows
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27 Nov 2017

joeyluck wrote:
26 Nov 2017
I had a difficult time getting results from my basic MIDI keyboard setup that were as good as with the Seaboard Block which makes it much easier for me. Although, when having the "Bow Gesture" in "bowing" mode, I find it more satisfying using a mod wheel on my regular keyboards or an expression pedal vs. the aftertouch on the Seaboard. But fun on anything really when performing your own bows/tremolos. The aftertouch on the Seaboard is really great when in "Expression" mode for the bow gesture.
That Seaboard looks like a lot of fun! The ability to use real vibrato on the surface is what I want. I'm always trying to use vibrato on my keyboard keys. I'm using a Graphite 49 with aftertouch. I don't have the hang of these instruments yet because I'm not used to such dynamic expressiveness, and using wheels, sliders & keys to play a violin is a strange experience. Here's the test song I made yesterday:


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