Can we capture CV???

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evolve187
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Post 19 Jan 2025

Question for you guys....Is there a way to record a CV signal? I recall learning how to do something similar years ago with an LFO to make a perfect sine wave (pre-automation curves in reason) but have forgot the process. Iv search the forums here but could not find anything.

I have a complex CV signal that I am generating from Synchronous with multiple waveform shapes in it and some phase automation that I'd like to playback live and record the resultant CV into an automation clip, that I can then copy paste and edit in places across my song.

I've tried going from CV to audio but then you can't convert that to an automation lane...

Thanks in advance!
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jam-s
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Post 19 Jan 2025

Use Thor to convert CV to audio and capture it. Then when you need it to modulate something use Thor again to convert the audio back to a CV signal.

Of course converting it to an automation lane is not possible then, but that's the only way there is AFAIK.

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Post 19 Jan 2025

there is a RE called Shape by Lectric Panda
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Loque
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Post 19 Jan 2025

You can record it as automation by using the MIDI device and MIDI loopback AFAIR.
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jam-s
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Post 19 Jan 2025

Yes, using the MIDI loopback trick works for slow CV signals, but for fast signals it reduces the resolution IIRC.

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Loque
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Post 19 Jan 2025

jam-s wrote:
19 Jan 2025
Yes, using the MIDI loopback trick works for slow CV signals, but for fast signals it reduces the resolution IIRC.
True. MIDI resolution is only 127 values.
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selig
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Post 19 Jan 2025

Loque wrote:
19 Jan 2025
jam-s wrote:
19 Jan 2025
Yes, using the MIDI loopback trick works for slow CV signals, but for fast signals it reduces the resolution IIRC.
True. MIDI resolution is only 127 values.
The 127 values are accurately reproduced in my experience, it’s the fact MIDI does not have a sample rate that is the bigger problem. This means you don’t know for sure how accurately a waveform will be reproduced with regard to the time domain, since that will depend on available bandwidth and therefore can change in real time.

So it’s typically no problem to represent the 127 values, but things can get janky in the time domain, which is why MIDI has issues with faster CV signals (it doesn’t “reduce” the timing resolution per se, as it was never high to begin with)
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bitley
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Post 19 Jan 2025

Loque wrote:
19 Jan 2025
jam-s wrote:
19 Jan 2025
Yes, using the MIDI loopback trick works for slow CV signals, but for fast signals it reduces the resolution IIRC.
True. MIDI resolution is only 127 values.
This is interesting sometimes because new hardware synths such as Behringer Pro 800 actually has something like 768 levels and software instruments have a much higher rate than that. Like a respond rate to make out the distances. If you then set a midi CC value between say 18 and 96 the result will be smooth as the real math behind this would render say 123 to 551.

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Pepin
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Post 19 Jan 2025

Here's another method that does not require midi loopback or conversion to audio. Instead, we record the CV signal as pitch bend input to Bird's MIDI Cap.
  • Hook the desired CV signal to the Pitch Bend CV input on the MIDI Cap VST
  • Let MIDI Cap record the signal and then select and drag the desired clip from MIDI Cap to the sequencer
  • Copy the recorded pitch bend data out of the MIDI clip and into your automation lane of choice

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evolve187
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Post 19 Jan 2025

selig wrote:
19 Jan 2025
Loque wrote:
19 Jan 2025


True. MIDI resolution is only 127 values.
The 127 values are accurately reproduced in my experience, it’s the fact MIDI does not have a sample rate that is the bigger problem. This means you don’t know for sure how accurately a waveform will be reproduced with regard to the time domain, since that will depend on available bandwidth and therefore can change in real time.

So it’s typically no problem to represent the 127 values, but things can get janky in the time domain, which is why MIDI has issues with faster CV signals (it doesn’t “reduce” the timing resolution per se, as it was never high to begin with)
Thanks. What is too fast of a CV signal? i have 16th note and some 32nd note sinewaves oscillations at 160BPM.
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evolve187
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Post 19 Jan 2025

Pepin wrote:
19 Jan 2025
Here's another method that does not require midi loopback or conversion to audio. Instead, we record the CV signal as pitch bend input to Bird's MIDI Cap.
  • Hook the desired CV signal to the Pitch Bend CV input on the MIDI Cap VST
  • Let MIDI Cap record the signal and then select and drag the desired clip from MIDI Cap to the sequencer
  • Copy the recorded pitch bend data out of the MIDI clip and into your automation lane of choice
Cool device. I'm downloading the the free lite version now. Thanks.
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Mattvank
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Post 24 Jan 2025

jam-s wrote:
19 Jan 2025
Use Thor to convert CV to audio and capture it. Then when you need it to modulate something use Thor again to convert the audio back to a CV signal.

Of course converting it to an automation lane is not possible then, but that's the only way there is AFAIK.
ENOUGH! Thor seems to be an fullyl underated Synth. I bought the book ,,Music production with reason``(It´s a german book) to drive deeper into Thor and rest of the tricks.
I definitely need an update :-)

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w1pl0c
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Post 24 Jan 2025

Pepin wrote:
19 Jan 2025
Here's another method that does not require midi loopback or conversion to audio. Instead, we record the CV signal as pitch bend input to Bird's MIDI Cap.
  • Hook the desired CV signal to the Pitch Bend CV input on the MIDI Cap VST
  • Let MIDI Cap record the signal and then select and drag the desired clip from MIDI Cap to the sequencer
  • Copy the recorded pitch bend data out of the MIDI clip and into your automation lane of choice
the pitch bend data turns red when I drag it to any other automated parameters. Is there a workaround for this? Otherwise I love the method!

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Loque
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Post 24 Jan 2025

w1pl0c wrote:
24 Jan 2025
Pepin wrote:
19 Jan 2025
Here's another method that does not require midi loopback or conversion to audio. Instead, we record the CV signal as pitch bend input to Bird's MIDI Cap.
  • Hook the desired CV signal to the Pitch Bend CV input on the MIDI Cap VST
  • Let MIDI Cap record the signal and then select and drag the desired clip from MIDI Cap to the sequencer
  • Copy the recorded pitch bend data out of the MIDI clip and into your automation lane of choice
the pitch bend data turns red when I drag it to any other automated parameters. Is there a workaround for this? Otherwise I love the method!
Right click on the clip and choose "Convert alien clip".
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w1pl0c
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Post 25 Jan 2025

Loque wrote:
24 Jan 2025
w1pl0c wrote:
24 Jan 2025


the pitch bend data turns red when I drag it to any other automated parameters. Is there a workaround for this? Otherwise I love the method!
Right click on the clip and choose "Convert alien clip".
Im getting an error when I click Adjust Alien Clips to Lane (R12).
Screenshot_1.jpg
I have the automation dragged onto just a random parameter.
Screenshot_4.jpg
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Pepin
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Post 25 Jan 2025

w1pl0c wrote:
25 Jan 2025
Loque wrote:
24 Jan 2025

Right click on the clip and choose "Convert alien clip".
Im getting an error when I click Adjust Alien Clips to Lane (R12).

Screenshot_1.jpg

I have the automation dragged onto just a random parameter.

Screenshot_4.jpg
MIDI Cap is using a note lane, not a dedicated automation lane. The pitch bend data is stored within a note clip. This is different from an automation clip, because it could potentially contain notes or automation for multiple parameters. You can't copy/paste the clip directly into an automation lane.

Instead, you need to open the clip for editing and copy the mod wheel "performance automation" data from under the piano roll. Select Mod Wheel from the "Controller" menu in the bottom left and then select and copy the automation data (Ctrl-A helps).

You can then paste the data into a dedicated automation clip elsewhere.

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selig
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Post 25 Jan 2025

bitley wrote:
19 Jan 2025
Loque wrote:
19 Jan 2025


True. MIDI resolution is only 127 values.
This is interesting sometimes because new hardware synths such as Behringer Pro 800 actually has something like 768 levels and software instruments have a much higher rate than that. Like a respond rate to make out the distances. If you then set a midi CC value between say 18 and 96 the result will be smooth as the real math behind this would render say 123 to 551.
You talking rate or level, I’m not clear on the distinction? We’re talking MIDI, right? Or do you mean internally?
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selig
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Post 25 Jan 2025

evolve187 wrote:
19 Jan 2025
selig wrote:
19 Jan 2025


The 127 values are accurately reproduced in my experience, it’s the fact MIDI does not have a sample rate that is the bigger problem. This means you don’t know for sure how accurately a waveform will be reproduced with regard to the time domain, since that will depend on available bandwidth and therefore can change in real time.

So it’s typically no problem to represent the 127 values, but things can get janky in the time domain, which is why MIDI has issues with faster CV signals (it doesn’t “reduce” the timing resolution per se, as it was never high to begin with)
Thanks. What is too fast of a CV signal? i have 16th note and some 32nd note sinewaves oscillations at 160BPM.
If we’re talking MIDI, it is unknown because MIDI doesn’t have a fixed sample rate like audio. Clog the data stream and things slow down - that’s how you can get data overruns when you have a MIDI feedback loop.

It also depends on what you are modulating, whereas pitch modulation will be more sensitive to jitter and distortion of the waveform than say, filter modulation or pulse width modulation etc., and audio level modulation could even add harmonics due to the distortion in certain cases.

It also depends on the source: if you’re sending a smooth sine wave you’ll notice ‘errors’ long before you’d notice if sending a random waveform (as two extreme examples).

And as for levels, it will depend on how much modulation you’re using on the receiving end, since it will be scaled. Meaning, if you send a sine LFO to pitch and only modulate less than a semi tone total, you’ve got 127 levels for that semitone (100 cents) of modulation (one step = 0.79 cents) Compare that to modulating an octave width, where you have 1/12 the resolution for levels and may begin to hear steps instead of a smooth transition as you now have 127 levels for 1200 cents, so one step = 9.45 cents.

Compare that to the 32bit floating point resolution of CV inside Reason, which has many thousands of levels.

In my tests using the SL mkIII to convert MIDI to CV over USB, I recall things starting to fall apart as early as 10Hz for smooth sine waves.
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selig
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Post 25 Jan 2025

Pepin wrote:
25 Jan 2025
w1pl0c wrote:
25 Jan 2025


Im getting an error when I click Adjust Alien Clips to Lane (R12).

Screenshot_1.jpg

I have the automation dragged onto just a random parameter.

Screenshot_4.jpg
MIDI Cap is using a note lane, not a dedicated automation lane. The pitch bend data is stored within a note clip. This is different from an automation clip, because it could potentially contain notes or automation for multiple parameters. You can't copy/paste the clip directly into an automation lane.

Instead, you need to open the clip for editing and copy the mod wheel "performance automation" data from under the piano roll. Select Mod Wheel from the "Controller" menu in the bottom left and then select and copy the automation data (Ctrl-A helps).

You can then paste the data into a dedicated automation clip elsewhere.
There is no mod wheel data to copy in this case, so I’m not following the second paragraph you wrote
Reason is ‘weird’ in this behavior IMO… ;(
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Pepin
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Post 25 Jan 2025

selig wrote:
25 Jan 2025
Pepin wrote:
25 Jan 2025


MIDI Cap is using a note lane, not a dedicated automation lane. The pitch bend data is stored within a note clip. This is different from an automation clip, because it could potentially contain notes or automation for multiple parameters. You can't copy/paste the clip directly into an automation lane.

Instead, you need to open the clip for editing and copy the mod wheel "performance automation" data from under the piano roll. Select Mod Wheel from the "Controller" menu in the bottom left and then select and copy the automation data (Ctrl-A helps).

You can then paste the data into a dedicated automation clip elsewhere.
There is no mod wheel data to copy in this case, so I’m not following the second paragraph you wrote
Reason is ‘weird’ in this behavior IMO… ;(
Oh! Right I mistyped. "Mod wheel" should be "pitch bend" in that second paragraph. Hopefully that didn't add to the confusion.
This gif should clarify the process (link if the embed isn't working):


In this case, MIDI Cap is used to capture the output of Pulsar as pitch bend input. A note clip is created by dragging a selection of MIDI Cap's data into the sequencer. The pitch bend "performance data" is then copied from this note clip and pasted into the automation lane for a Combinator knob.

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