reason instruments lacks more than 15K of sound

This forum is for discussing Reason. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
exxx
Posts: 157
Joined: 12 Sep 2016

Post 05 Jul 2024

reason instruments lacks more than 15K of sound

If you just listen to a sample of Ableton's granula synth right now, the high-tone details are different.

This symptom is even more pronounced in modern devices. In terms of sound quality, instruments from the past, such as the Malstrom and Thor, are better than today's.

Explaining the auditory frequencies that humans can hear is ridiculous and meaningless

If you see that modern instruments in other DAWs sound much better than 15K, that part needs to be updated and improved so that the user can control it.

Not only 13, but all Reason versions should update this to improve it.

madmacman
Posts: 810
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

Post 05 Jul 2024

exxx wrote:
05 Jul 2024
Not only 13, but all Reason versions should update this to improve it.
Lol, but yes you can dream sometimes

User avatar
jam-s
Posts: 3128
Joined: 17 Apr 2015
Location: Aachen, Germany

Post 05 Jul 2024

Pretty bold claims. I suppose you have the data to back them up, right?

User avatar
deeplink
Competition Winner
Posts: 1109
Joined: 08 Jul 2020
Location: Dubai / Cape Town

Post 05 Jul 2024

I am assuming he is comparing almost all stock device Saw waves with the likes of The Legend, Serum, but also Reason's Complex-1
Get more Combinators, Patches and Resources at the deeplink website

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11299
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 05 Jul 2024

It lacks 15000 sounds? Or does it lack 15000 in sound? Wat? :?
Reason13, Win10

User avatar
Pepin
Posts: 603
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 05 Jul 2024

Maybe you have to be more specific, but high frequency content isn't "missing" from oscillators in the stock synths...
Europa.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
mcatalao
Competition Winner
Posts: 1873
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 05 Jul 2024

I guess it's the reason sound... ;)

TBH, I've never seen this on synths, samples is a different story.

A good example of a sample set that is a bit muffled is Reason Pianos where most harmonics above second order are completely subdued. However, a question of relevance is important, i.e. should we have those harmonics there? Are there as much harmonics on a real piano (harmonics in an instrument depend on the nature of that instrument). A piano string produces an almost pure sine, so... i guess that's expected.

So yeah, if you pull up a sine, play C8 and expect a 15 k harmonic you won't have it! :)
But in Pepin's example, pull a triangle or a saw, and there you go.

That being said, this a really odd take because looking at the newer RS devices (appart from radikal piano, wich i almost hate) they are all super fresh and sound astonishly good. At most you have to cut to make them sit on the mix since a lot of the patches are huge compared to Thor, Maelstrom, etc.. And that unison in Europa, man... it's instant 3d gratification!!!

So, yeah, proof please. Or else check your ears. :)

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11299
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 05 Jul 2024

mcatalao wrote:
05 Jul 2024
I guess it's the reason sound... ;)
...
Yea, some never get over it...
Reason13, Win10

User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11980
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 05 Jul 2024

Check out Subtractor for an example of limited high frequency energy above a certain point which changes depending on which note you play.
That said, in most cases you would never notice a lack of 15kHz and above, and it would only be audible (if at all) with the filter wide open. Chromatically speaking, 15kHz is around Bb9 assuming middle C = C4. 20kHz is only 4-5 semitones higher.
Also worth noting, being able to hear a slight difference between two sources doesn’t equate to a bad sound for either one. They’re just different, and even analog oscillators can all sound slightly different with the same waveforms.

In digital photography this is called “pixel peeping”, which is zooming in and finding things that are not visible zoomed out. If it’s important to someone I suggest choosing the tools that provide the sound you’re looking for - or consider whether it REALLY matters for your work. It doesn’t for mine!
Selig Audio, LLC

User avatar
Pepin
Posts: 603
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 05 Jul 2024

The behavior of a fully open filter also varies quite a bit between synths, with some opening more than others and interacting with key tracking differently. Still not really a matter of "quality".

robussc
Posts: 552
Joined: 03 May 2022

Post 05 Jul 2024

I’d recommend getting the oxygen free copper rack wiring cables to unleash the high frequencies…
Software: Reason 12 + Objekt, Vintage Vault 4, V-Collection 9 + Pigments, Vintage Verb + Supermassive
Hardware: M1 Mac mini + dual monitors, Launchkey 61, Scarlett 18i20, Rokit 6 monitors, AT4040 mic, DT-990 Pro phones

User avatar
Aosta
Posts: 1128
Joined: 26 Jun 2017

Post 05 Jul 2024

robussc wrote:
05 Jul 2024
I’d recommend getting the oxygen free copper rack wiring cables to unleash the high frequencies…
Wearing sandals is the key to unhindered frequency responses, we must also take into account whether the equipment is surrounded by cool or uncool trees and foliage.

Tend the flame

User avatar
mimidancer
Posts: 764
Joined: 30 Sep 2021

Post 05 Jul 2024

Oh shit, my dog will be upset.

User avatar
mcatalao
Competition Winner
Posts: 1873
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 08 Jul 2024

Aosta wrote:
05 Jul 2024
robussc wrote:
05 Jul 2024
I’d recommend getting the oxygen free copper rack wiring cables to unleash the high frequencies…
Wearing sandals is the key to unhindered frequency responses, we must also take into account whether the equipment is surrounded by cool or uncool trees and foliage.

Don't forget the Angels and Godly presences... :lol: :puf_bigsmile:

Don't you love the comments? This guy asked a recap of episodes 1-709...

User avatar
Aosta
Posts: 1128
Joined: 26 Jun 2017

Post 08 Jul 2024

mcatalao wrote:
08 Jul 2024
Don't you love the comments? This guy asked a recap of episodes 1-709...
That's true.
Tend the flame

User avatar
mcatalao
Competition Winner
Posts: 1873
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 08 Jul 2024

selig wrote:
05 Jul 2024

That said, in most cases you would never notice a lack of 15kHz and above, and it would only be audible (if at all) with the filter wide open. Chromatically speaking, 15kHz is around Bb9 assuming middle C = C4. 20kHz is only 4-5 semitones higher.
Well said. It really puts high frequency information in perspective on the musical context...

User avatar
Theo.M
Posts: 1228
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 08 Jul 2024

I don't see the big deal. Are you saying they are not as bright as they could be? Lack Clarity? They sound fine to me. Maybe I'm the one missing something :redface:
Mac Studio M2 Ultra/64Gb/Apollo T-Bolt 3/OS 14.5.0/PT 2024/Nuendo 13
MSI GT77/13980HX/RTX 4090m/64GB/Arturia Minifuse 2/Win 11 Pro/S1 V6/Bitwig 5/Low DPC latency tuned

User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11980
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 08 Jul 2024

Subtractor is the "worst offender" here but it totally depends on the note you play - playing a chord would mask any difference heard. To test, reset the patch and open the filter and display the Spectrum Analyzer for that channel. Playing a "F" (any octave) shows full bandwidth, playing an "A" shows a gap at the top. Different notes have different cutoffs – despite this, I (and most users) cannot hear a difference in tone between the different notes/responses.
A similar thing happens with Thor's Wavetable oscillator, and Maelstrom does this to a lesser degree as well.
Reason has two other responses, one which is more "analog" (gentle rolloff starting around 10kHz), used on Thor's Analog Oscillator, Algorithm's Osc/Noise module, MonoTone and PolyTone.
And finally, there is the response of Europa and Complex-1, which is straight out to Nyquist.

So as always, "it depends". But in a blind test could these be reliably identified? Not if I'm the one taking the test…
Selig Audio, LLC

User avatar
jam-s
Posts: 3128
Joined: 17 Apr 2015
Location: Aachen, Germany

Post 08 Jul 2024

OP didn't respond, so it seems to be just an easy attempt at trolling.

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11299
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 08 Jul 2024

jam-s wrote:
08 Jul 2024
OP didn't respond, so it seems to be just an easy attempt at trolling.
"Rant-And-Forget"
rantover.gif
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Reason13, Win10

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 11 guests