Reason 12.7.4 Release Notes

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deigm
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Post 10 Mar 2024

Updated Europa Shapeshifting Synthesizer

- Fixed a bug where the level of the Dist effect in Europa was louder. Opening an old song with an instance of Europa (where Dist was used) in Reason 12.7.3 would result in a louder output from Europa compared to the output in 12.7.1 (and earlier versions)

- Fixed a bug in Europa that made the LFO curve type "smooth random" work as a steady sawtooth


https://www.reasonstudios.com/en/reason ... ease-notes

okehas
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Post 13 Mar 2024

Appreciate the update details for Europa Shapeshifting Synthesizer! The bug fixes, particularly the adjustment to the Dist effect level and the correction for the 'smooth random' LFO curve type, demonstrate the commitment to maintaining a high standard of performance. It's reassuring to see developers actively addressing and resolving issues to ensure a seamless user experience.
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dusan.cani
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Post 13 Mar 2024

The fact that the latest versions of Reason can introduce bugs into the old devices worries me. I thought that there is no reason to touch the device's sound engine code at all when implementing other DAW new features and changes. But if this happens and bugs occur in older devices, it means that patch compatibility is no longer guaranteed and you can end up with patch inconsistencies over different Reason versions. This is serious issue especially if you deal with sound design as you need your patches to sound EXCATLY same in ALL Reason versions.

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Heigen5
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Post 13 Mar 2024

dusan.cani wrote:
13 Mar 2024
The fact that the latest versions of Reason can introduce bugs into the old devices worries me. I thought that there is no reason to touch the device's sound engine code at all when implementing other DAW new features and changes. But if this happens and bugs occur in older devices, it means that patch compatibility is no longer guaranteed and you can end up with patch inconsistencies over different Reason versions. This is serious issue especially if you deal with sound design as you need your patches to sound EXCATLY same in ALL Reason versions.
I thought this too. Maybe they added a line of code that keeps the old patches the same? Dunno.

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Loque
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Post 13 Mar 2024

dusan.cani wrote:
13 Mar 2024
The fact that the latest versions of Reason can introduce bugs into the old devices worries me. I thought that there is no reason to touch the device's sound engine code at all when implementing other DAW new features and changes. But if this happens and bugs occur in older devices, it means that patch compatibility is no longer guaranteed and you can end up with patch inconsistencies over different Reason versions. This is serious issue especially if you deal with sound design as you need your patches to sound EXCATLY same in ALL Reason versions.
While i agree, i also think, there must be a Reason to touch the code. Maybe they are preparing something regarding Europa? Or the simplest case, they fixed another bug and broke something. Or maybe they are experimenting with VST3 version of Europa?
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crimsonwarlock
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Post 13 Mar 2024

Loque wrote:
13 Mar 2024
there must be a Reason to touch the code.
In software development, ALL code gets touched eventually. Software libraries get updated, like to support newer OS and such, and using newer libraries means some code gets legacy status at some point in time. Eventually, that legacy code has to be replaced or updated to ensure future maintainability.

Remember, R12 got a serious rewrite to support HD-graphics and the new Apple OS stuff after that. My guess is that there is still a lot of code in the current codebase, from before R12, that needs to get updated still. This is also why I think R13 is still a long way off, because they probably won't build that on top of code that still needs to get overhauled somehow.
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avasopht
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Post 13 Mar 2024

dusan.cani wrote:
13 Mar 2024
The fact that the latest versions of Reason can introduce bugs into the old devices worries me. I thought that there is no reason to touch the device's sound engine code at all when implementing other DAW new features and changes. But if this happens and bugs occur in older devices, it means that patch compatibility is no longer guaranteed and you can end up with patch inconsistencies over different Reason versions. This is serious issue especially if you deal with sound design as you need your patches to sound EXCATLY same in ALL Reason versions.
The bug was that the level for something was too high.

They didn't change how patches work or anything.



The occasional bug is always possible (especially after revamping a lot of code that included the GUI) - but they can be easily fixed, as they've done now.



This is nothing to read too much into.



There was a bug. It got fixed.



And they're not revamping the GUI code every day. It was a once-in-a-generation (maybe even a lifetime) event.

dusan.cani
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Post 13 Mar 2024

avasopht wrote:
13 Mar 2024
dusan.cani wrote:
13 Mar 2024
The fact that the latest versions of Reason can introduce bugs into the old devices worries me. I thought that there is no reason to touch the device's sound engine code at all when implementing other DAW new features and changes. But if this happens and bugs occur in older devices, it means that patch compatibility is no longer guaranteed and you can end up with patch inconsistencies over different Reason versions. This is serious issue especially if you deal with sound design as you need your patches to sound EXCATLY same in ALL Reason versions.
The bug was that the level for something was too high.

They didn't change how patches work or anything.



The occasional bug is always possible (especially after revamping a lot of code that included the GUI) - but they can be easily fixed, as they've done now.



This is nothing to read too much into.



There was a bug. It got fixed.



And they're not revamping the GUI code every day. It was a once-in-a-generation (maybe even a lifetime) event.
For anybody who wants to get consistent and exact sounding patches for all subsequent Reason versions, this is serious sound design issue.

Even if the volume of the patch is louder, it means that it doesn't sound same and it can easily cause further, dramatic changes in the sound. For example, using FX stack inside combinator to process the Europa sound. If you have FX device which produces sound character dependent on the input gain / volume, then different volume of the Europa patch can cause unwanted alteration of the resulting character / timbre of the combinator patch.

Even if the bug is fixed now, it has broken the patch compatibility because using patches would cause difference between "pre bugfix" and "post bugfix" versions.

avasopht
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Post 13 Mar 2024

dusan.cani wrote:
13 Mar 2024
For anybody who wants to get consistent and exact sounding patches for all subsequent Reason versions, this is serious sound design issue.
But they've fixed the bug.

So backwards compatibility has not been broken.
dusan.cani wrote:
13 Mar 2024
Even if the bug is fixed now, it has broken the patch compatibility because using patches would cause difference between "pre bugfix" and "post bugfix" versions.
This is the case for ALL software if you activate a bug that yields a different behavior.



Logic Pro had a bug that made a plugin behave differently until fixed.

Cubase had a bug that made a plugin behave differently (specifically panning with REVerence, a frequency change in an LP/HP plugin, and some others) until fixed.

Studio One had a bug that made a plugin behave differently until fixed.

... and you'll find this has been the case for just about any sizeable piece of software.



There have also been bugs with many hardware devices that would yield different behavior until fixed.



This happens with software and hardware from time to time.

dusan.cani
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Post 13 Mar 2024

avasopht wrote:
13 Mar 2024

So backwards compatibility has not been broken.
Patches made in "bug-introduced" version will sound different in all subsequent Reason versions. Also patches made in versions earlier than "bug-introduced" version will sound different in "bug-introduced" version. This patch inconsistency will remain until every single Reason user will update to latest version, or until the patches made in "bug-introduced" version will be fixed in bugfixed Reason version.

Imagine you are a sound designer and you want your presets to be consistent in all Reason versions because you sell them and you want to guarantee that your product is exactly what it has to be. With issues like this, you can't guarantee to your customers that the presets you sell will sound always identical in all Reason versions. This is not desirable situation at all. I would understand it if the device has been updated with never features or functionality, but if the version of the device is same all time and there is chance that bugs appear in later Reason versions, it's not a good sign.

avasopht
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Post 13 Mar 2024

dusan.cani wrote:
13 Mar 2024
Patches made in "bug-introduced" version will sound different in all subsequent Reason versions
Who told you that?

The release notes do NOT say that patches created with that version would sound different.
dusan.cani wrote:
13 Mar 2024
Also patches made in versions earlier than "bug-introduced" version will sound different in "bug-introduced" version.
That's true for every single bug that has ever existed.

When the bugs are discovered, we just download the latest version/patch and get on with our lives.
dusan.cani wrote:
13 Mar 2024
Imagine you are a sound designer and you want your presets to be consistent in all Reason versions because you sell them and you want to guarantee that your product is exactly what it has to be. With issues like this, you can't guarantee to your customers that the presets you sell will sound always indentical in all Reason versions. This is not desirable situation at all. I would understand it if the device has been updated with never features or functionality, but if the version of the device is same all time and there is chance that bugs appear in later Reason versions, it's not a good sign.
Pretty much EVERY SINGLE DAW has had some bug with a VST at some time or another. Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill.

When this happened in Cubase and Studio One, it did not result in the end of the ability to create patches. The bugs were fixed, and everyone moved on.



But again, the release notes do NOT say that it produces patches that sound different.

It says that if you load an old patch in 12.7.3, you will get a louder volume (where dist is used).



Look dude, software and hardware sometimes have bugs. We've survived with computers and hardware for over half a decade just fine.

Let's not blow this out of proportion.

dusan.cani
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Post 13 Mar 2024

avasopht wrote:
13 Mar 2024
dusan.cani wrote:
13 Mar 2024
Patches made in "bug-introduced" version will sound different in all subsequent Reason versions
Who told you that?

The release notes do NOT say that patches created with that version would sound different.
I just assume based on Release notes. So output of Europa is not always louder when dist is used in the "bug-introduced" Reason version ? Does the bug happen only if older songs are loaded and not if you are using new instance of Europa and creating new sounds or loading older patches ?
avasopht wrote:
13 Mar 2024

But again, the release notes do NOT say that it produces patches that sound different.
It certainly could sound different in the combinator context where additional FX was used. Maybe you've missed that part in my previous reply.

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jam-s
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Post 13 Mar 2024

So, Europa in Reason 12.7.3 can sound a little bit off when using distortion. As you now know about this it's an easy thing to fix:
If you made a patch in an earlier version --> no problem, just update to 12.7.4 or higher and don't use R12.7.3
If you made a patch or mix in R12.7.3 --> Choose one of the options:
a) Update to R12.7.4 and simply adjust back to taste
b) Bounce it to audio with R12.7.3, then update to R12.7.4 and try to dial back the volume until you get a (almost) perfect null with the inverted bounce.

In total I don't see much to be agitated over. In comparison to removing the Line6 amps that's a really minor thing even for creators of Refills.

dusan.cani
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Post 13 Mar 2024

jam-s wrote:
13 Mar 2024

In total I don't see much to be agitated over. In comparison to removing the Line6 amps that's a really minor thing even for creators of Refills.
Yes, If you know where to find your 1 patch which should be fixed because of this.But Imagine you have huge library where dozens of Europa patches were used so you must check, verify and eventually fix all of them, especially those with additional FX in combinator setups...

In old days of Reason until the version R10 you didn't have to worry as sound designer that you sell patches for customers and there is chance that your sounds will not sound identical in subsequent Reason versions although the version of the devices are always same.

avasopht
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Post 13 Mar 2024

dusan.cani wrote:
13 Mar 2024
I just assume based on Release notes. So output of Europa is not always louder when dist is used in the "bug-introduced" Reason version ? Does the bug happen only if older songs are loaded and not if you are using new instance of Europa and creating new sounds or loading older patches ?
The release notes only say the bug happens when loading an old patch. It did not say it happens when creating new ones.



dusan.cani wrote:
13 Mar 2024
It certainly could sound different in the combinator context where additional FX was used. Maybe you've missed that part in my previous reply.
The release notes did not say that the patch that is saved will sound different from what you hear when saved and when loaded in versions without the bug.

There are a few specifics you could ask:

1. Does that mean it saves a patch that sounds the same on all versions of Reason?
- That would mean it's not the same as the patch it loaded from the old version.
2. What happens if you modify the patch and save it?
- Especially any control associated with the bug?



The logical thing to do would be to upgrade to 12.7.4 and get on with producing patches.



Since RE patches are modifiable XML files, if this has affected many of your patches, I'm sure someone could knock together a script if you can provide them a before and after.



Given 12.7.3 came out a month ago (February 12th), and this only impacts a very specific type of Europa patch (using dist loaded from an old patch/project), it shouldn't be too difficult to resolve.
Last edited by avasopht on 13 Mar 2024, edited 1 time in total.

avasopht
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Post 13 Mar 2024

dusan.cani wrote:
13 Mar 2024
jam-s wrote:
13 Mar 2024

In total I don't see much to be agitated over. In comparison to removing the Line6 amps that's a really minor thing even for creators of Refills.
Yes, If you know where to find your 1 patch which should be fixed because of this.But Imagine you have huge library where dozens of Europa patches were used so you must check, verify and eventually fix all of them, especially those with additional FX in combinator setups...

In old days of Reason until the version R10 you didn't have to worry as sound designer that you sell patches for customers and there is chance that your sounds will not sound identical in subsequent Reason versions although the version of the devices are always same.
Dude. This has happened with EVERY DAW at some point in time. Let's not overdramatize the fact that there was a bug once.



Every DAW and many pieces of hardware has at some point in time had a bug that resulted in something behaving differently until the next patch. Just look at the release notes for bug fixes.



This doesn't change anything about Reason.



Reason, like ALL software and hardware can encounter bugs from time to time.

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Creativemind
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Post 13 Mar 2024

Has Reason basically been abandoned now workflow wise? just ridiculous now. We're half way through the third month of 2024 after a year of waiting for workflow additions.
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deigm
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Post 14 Mar 2024

Creativemind wrote:
13 Mar 2024
Has Reason basically been abandoned now workflow wise? just ridiculous now. We're half way through the third month of 2024 after a year of waiting for workflow additions.
Workflow updates haven't been mentioned by reasonstudios since the very first roadmap back in 2021, and even then it was a dot point on an info-graphic that said 'under consideration' or something to that effect.

Nothing was planned, they were just thinking about maybe looking into it, and it hasn't been mentioned since. I wouldn't hold my breath.

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deigm
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Post 14 Mar 2024

That being said, they seem to have made a decision to focus on squashing every bug possible for the time being.
And I'm OK with that.
Hopefully they come hard with the sequencer/workflow stuff in R13.. But who knows.

Haku
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Post 14 Mar 2024

This particular bug in Europa created a problem in my mix; a track with Europe was suddenly louder, and I couldn’t figure out why my track sounded louder and harsh as I was close to finishing the mix. I had to redo the chain in that track to compensate for that and make other changes in the song along. And now, after the bug fix the sound is changed again. I was not expecting this lack of QC from Reason Studios, as they have high-quality products. Now I have to rethink my production and mixing as in to bounce tracks after each session to make sure it’s not my ears.

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deigm
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Post 14 Mar 2024

Haku wrote:
14 Mar 2024
This particular bug in Europa created a problem in my mix; a track with Europe was suddenly louder, and I couldn’t figure out why my track sounded louder and harsh as I was close to finishing the mix. I had to redo the chain in that track to compensate for that and make other changes in the song along. And now, after the bug fix the sound is changed again. I was not expecting this lack of QC from Reason Studios, as they have high-quality products. Now I have to rethink my production and mixing as in to bounce tracks after each session to make sure it’s not my ears.
That sucks, but as frustrating as it is, I wouldn't rethink my whole production and mixing process just yet. Seems to me you were just an unlucky victim of a dot point bug, rather than something ongoing. You should be fine now that the bugs been squashed.

Your experience highlights why I appreciate that they're being so liberal with the big spray at the moment. They've always had a reputation for quality/stability and with the launch of R12 that reputation took a hit. Now they're doing the work to repair that damage. I have a feature wish-list just like the next guy but I think this is an important/respectable/necessary priority.

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Post 14 Mar 2024

Haku wrote:
14 Mar 2024
This particular bug in Europa created a problem in my mix; a track with Europe was suddenly louder, and I couldn’t figure out why my track sounded louder and harsh as I was close to finishing the mix. I had to redo the chain in that track to compensate for that and make other changes in the song along. And now, after the bug fix the sound is changed again. I was not expecting this lack of QC from Reason Studios, as they have high-quality products. Now I have to rethink my production and mixing as in to bounce tracks after each session to make sure it’s not my ears.
Ouch!

Issues saving was what dusan.cani was worried about.

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Post 24 Mar 2024

Creativemind wrote:
13 Mar 2024
Has Reason basically been abandoned now workflow wise? just ridiculous now. We're half way through the third month of 2024 after a year of waiting for workflow additions.
I have a feeling they are working on something big. Why give up once you have so much more to explore? :geek:

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Post 24 Mar 2024

Creativemind wrote:
13 Mar 2024
Has Reason basically been abandoned now workflow wise? just ridiculous now. We're half way through the third month of 2024 after a year of waiting for workflow additions.
As a rule of thumb, if you don't see any updates on a product that is being actively developed, it's because they're either:
1. Working on some bigger features.
2. Packaging new features for a single release (like R12.5 or R13).
3. Balancing new features to make them work well together.
4. Overhauling or rethinking the product.
5. Doing something else that is necessary that you don't know about.



Remember, they've just invested a HUGE amount of development resources overhauling the code for this exact reason.



It's not as if we're seeing them all working on some other product, or executing mass layoffs.



We need to quit this "are we there yet" mentality.

Why are we so obsessed with frequent releases?




If all of your releases are frequent, they won't be big updates, and they might not be able to improve workflow if workflow is so severely lacking.

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Loque
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Post 24 Mar 2024

avasopht wrote:
24 Mar 2024
Creativemind wrote:
13 Mar 2024
Has Reason basically been abandoned now workflow wise? just ridiculous now. We're half way through the third month of 2024 after a year of waiting for workflow additions.
As a rule of thumb, if you don't see any updates on a product that is being actively developed, it's because they're either:
1. Working on some bigger features.
2. Packaging new features for a single release (like R12.5 or R13).
3. Balancing new features to make them work well together.
4. Overhauling or rethinking the product.
5. Doing something else that is necessary that you don't know about.



Remember, they've just invested a HUGE amount of development resources overhauling the code for this exact reason.



It's not as if we're seeing them all working on some other product, or executing mass layoffs.



We need to quit this "are we there yet" mentality.

Why are we so obsessed with frequent releases?




If all of your releases are frequent, they won't be big updates, and they might not be able to improve workflow if workflow is so severely lacking.
I thought they were doing this:
ezgif.com-optimize(3).gif
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