Almost all my songs are audibly clipping, what am I missing?

[Unaudited]

Hi. I love this reason tutorial about levels and clipping:

...in it he says that the masterbus has basically limitless headroom and that you should only worry about avoiding going over 0db when exporting. Sounds lovely but I have the opposite experience. It feels like there is barely enough headroom to work with. The clipping in my case usually happens when I have a full mix and put a melody on top, typically with certain high notes. It can also happen when boosting the midrange of sounds or when bass is stacked (before I hipass one of them). It's audible distortion (both inside reason and in the exported songs) and I run into it on almost every song. The video makes it sound like this shouldn't happen. In order to avoid it I need to turn the song down too low. What am I doing wrong or misunderstanding do you think?

[rgdaniel]

I had similar issues a while back, but learned I was starting too hot. This video helped me start from more reasonable levels across the board.

[QVprod]

The Learn How to Reason guy wasn’t really that knowledgeable tbh. Selig’s breakdown will help you a bit more.

But basically while you can’t clip in Reason per-se, you can clip the the physical outputs you’re listening through. Nothing wrong with turning things down in the creative process.

[antic604]

...in it he says that the masterbus has basically limitless headroom and that you should only worry about avoiding going over 0db when exporting.

That's NOT what the video says - quite the contrary. It tells you to not worry about headroom & clipping on individual channels and busses (because of 32/64-bit floating point precision), but NOT on the Master where it goes down to fixed point precision and resolution you've set in settings, no matter whether you're exporting or not.

You seem to be implying that stuff can't clip on master when you're in the DAW and it will only start being audible in the export.

You have to gain stage stuff from the start. For example you can't have the loudest element of your mix - e.g. a kick - peak at 0dB, because once you add other stuff, you'll inevitably clip UNLESS you pull down the master fader OR use limiter / clipper / maximizer. Those are totally valid techniques, although most people - myself included - seem to prefer to produce a quiet mix and bring it up with some sort of "mastering" chain, because with modern recording gear and software instrument/FX the noise floor isn't really a concern anymore.

[Unaudited]

Thanks guys.

I find it a bit weird that the clipping on my physical outputs sounds exactly the same as it does on exported tracks. Am I right in assuming that these are clipping for different reasons e.g. the physical outputs based on sampling rate in settings, and the exported based on resolution of output file? Also I don't hear audible distortion every time I hit 0dB I'm pretty sure. It's only certain times with certain frequencies. Also using a limiter with a "safe output" type setting to make sure the track doesn't go above 0dB doesn't always fully remove the audible clipping distortion.

[selig]

...in it he says that the masterbus has basically limitless headroom and that you should only worry about avoiding going over 0db when exporting.

That's NOT what the video says - quite the contrary. It tells you to not worry about headroom & clipping on individual channels and busses (because of 32/64-bit floating point precision), but NOT on the Master where it goes down to fixed point precision and resolution you've set in settings, no matter whether you're exporting or not.

You seem to be implying that stuff can't clip on master when you're in the DAW and it will only start being audible in the export.

They are correct, you can’t clip the master - but clipping the outputs IS audible before export.

To re-cap: you can’t clip ANYWHERE in Reason until the conversion to fixed point, which only happens either right before the hardware itself or during export. So basically the signal is floating point all the way to the hardware/export – in fact, if they added 32 bit floating point file export you wouldn’t clip anywhere!

Bottom line, the master section is still floating point, which is why you can patch a limiter etc AFTER the Master Outputs and before the Hardware Interface. Note that when you do this, the clipping indicators will no longer function on the Master Channel meters because it is no longer the final stage before output (Reason is “aware” when you patch anythhing between the Master Outputs and the Hardware Interface!).

[selig]

Thanks guys.

I find it a bit weird that the clipping on my physical outputs sounds exactly the same as it does on exported tracks. Am I right in assuming that these are clipping for different reasons e.g. the physical outputs based on sampling rate in settings, and the exported based on resolution of output file? Also I don't hear audible distortion every time I hit 0dB I'm pretty sure. It's only certain times with certain frequencies. Also using a limiter with a "safe output" type setting to make sure the track doesn't go above 0dB doesn't always fully remove the audible clipping distortion.

If you looked at both waveforms they would look pretty much the same, which is why they sound the same.
Clipping only happens for one reason - no more head room (either intentionally or unintentionally).

Every single little clip isn’t going to always be audible. As an extreme example, clipped noise doesn’t sound any different than non-clipped noise. In many cases, it’s the transient that clips and many natural transients are mostly noise for the first few milliseconds. Plus, since “humans” hear the “average” level of sound (hence VU meters), clipped peaks/transients of up to around 5ms or so can often sound “clean” because they happen to fast to be detected as “distorted”.

Sine waves are the “opposite” of noise (which contains all frequencies) because a sine wave contains only a single frequency. As such a sine wave is the easiest signal to hear/see clipping/distortion because you know if there is only one frequency present it is clean, but if there is energy at ANY other frequency, even just a little, it is distorted.

As for your limiter, not all limiters are the same - some do better preventing overs than others. And even the limiters that DO prevent all overs may do so more aggressively than others, and thus “sound” distorted. Both clipping and limiting are “distorting” (changing) the shape of the waveform, it’s just that limiters are working hard to do so more transparantely than clippers in most cases.

And in all cases there is no “free lunch” with audio processing - you can only push any processor so far before the cure becomes worse than the disease (law of diminishing returns).

[aeox]

...in it he says that the masterbus has basically limitless headroom and that you should only worry about avoiding going over 0db when exporting.

That's NOT what the video says - quite the contrary. It tells you to not worry about headroom & clipping on individual channels and busses (because of 32/64-bit floating point precision), but NOT on the Master where it goes down to fixed point precision and resolution you've set in settings, no matter whether you're exporting or not.

You seem to be implying that stuff can't clip on master when you're in the DAW and it will only start being audible in the export.

You have to gain stage stuff from the start. For example you can't have the loudest element of your mix - e.g. a kick - peak at 0dB, because once you add other stuff, you'll inevitably clip UNLESS you pull down the master fader OR use limiter / clipper / maximizer. Those are totally valid techniques, although most people - myself included - seem to prefer to produce a quiet mix and bring it up with some sort of "mastering" chain, because with modern recording gear and software instrument/FX the noise floor isn't really a concern anymore.

The noise floor where the magic is!

[Unaudited]

If you looked at both waveforms they would look pretty much the same, which is why they sound the same.
Clipping only happens for one ...

This is great. It's nice to gain clarity on these topics. The noise vs sine wave thing is useful to know. The parts on my latest song that were audibly clipping were some plucks that had a "clean" sinewavey sound to them, not a typical sinewave sound but not a lot of high frequency noise inherent in them. I tried using a clipper on them to remove some of the transients in order to reduce master bus clipping but that just introduced audible distortion again and now I know why

[Unaudited]

A couple more questions if anyone has time to answer:
- What are some strategies to eliminate clipping that stems from frequency buildup? I believe that's what's happening in my song. I like the way my song sounds but I think certain high-mid frequencies are heavily adding up when certain plucks play.
- Why is it that when I import my own songs or reference tracks as a regular audio files in reason the master meter shows that 0dB has been hit even though I know that's not the case?

[Ottostrom]

A couple more questions if anyone has time to answer:
- What are some strategies to eliminate clipping that stems from frequency buildup? I believe that's what's happening in my song. I like the way my song sounds but I think certain high-mid frequencies are heavily adding up when certain plucks play.

When I have multiple elements that mainly occupy the same frequency space (and I don't want to carve out this space permanently with an eq) I usually sidechain with a dynamic eq like the RE Omega DEQ. So for example if I have a pad going and then some synth plucks which sits in the same freq space I will duck that area on the pad only when the plucks are playing. This is a great option because it leaves the pad sounding full whenever nothing else is trying to take up that space.

[selig]

A couple more questions if anyone has time to answer:
- What are some strategies to eliminate clipping that stems from frequency buildup? I believe that's what's happening in my song. I like the way my song sounds but I think certain high-mid frequencies are heavily adding up when certain plucks play.
- Why is it that when I import my own songs or reference tracks as a regular audio files in reason the master meter shows that 0dB has been hit even though I know that's not the case?

To the first, avoid frequency build up. Seriously, IF that’s what is happening then that is the best solution.
Short plucks are difficult to get “loud” because they are so “transient” by nature. That means they have a higher crest factor, which is the peak level minus the average level. Sounds that are transient heavy are not perceived as being as loud as more sustaining sounds because of how humans “average” levels when judging loudness. So getting a pluck sound to cut through a dense mix can be a delicate balancing act - you have to somehow squash it to get it to compete with the other textures/density, but that risks sounding distorted. Tape style saturation or even soft clipping may be more helpful here, I’ve had to resort to both when mixing plucked strings into dense tracks in the past.

To the second, there is not enough information in your comment to say. Is the master meter showing peak or RMS or PPM levels? I default my master/big meters to Peak + VU so I get the best of both worlds. But if I had to guess, you master meters may be set to VU which is an average indicator. Meaning that even if the peaks hit 0dBFS the average level will be lower.

[antic604]

That's NOT what the video says - quite the contrary. It tells you to not worry about headroom & clipping on individual channels and busses (because of 32/64-bit floating point precision), but NOT on the Master where it goes down to fixed point precision and resolution you've set in settings, no matter whether you're exporting or not.

You seem to be implying that stuff can't clip on master when you're in the DAW and it will only start being audible in the export.

They are correct, you can’t clip the master - but clipping the outputs IS audible before export.

This seems like a very technical, nitpicky distinction - master can't clip, but it does clip whenever you're listening to it or exporting it (unless it's floating rate export file).

You're right of course, but I still think it's better to assume that master CAN clip and behave accordingly, because inevitably it becomes the truth.

[Unaudited]

Thanks guys.

To the second, there is not enough information in your comment to say. Is the master meter showing peak or RMS or PPM levels? I default my master/big meters to Peak + VU so I get the best of both worlds. But if I had to guess, you master meters may be set to VU which is an average indicator. Meaning that even if the peaks hit 0dBFS the average level will be lower.

I honestly don't know what peak/RMS/PPM levels and VU mean. So much to learn. Nice. For checking overall loudness I use a VST LUFS meter, which I find works fairly well to compare my mixes to pro ones in terms of how loud they are. Anyways, I mean the LEDs at the very top which I believe indicate 0db has been exceeded not just hit (I should have been more specific about that). It's the red LEDs that are lit up at this timestamp in the video (at the very top outside of the meter, where it says CLIP)

[Popey]

Thanks guys.

To the second, there is not enough information in your comment to say. Is the master meter showing peak or RMS or PPM levels? I default my master/big meters to Peak + VU so I get the best of both worlds. But if I had to guess, you master meters may be set to VU which is an average indicator. Meaning that even if the peaks hit 0dBFS the average level will be lower.

I honestly don't know what peak/RMS/PPM levels and VU mean. So much to learn. Nice. For checking overall loudness I use a VST LUFS meter, which I find works fairly well to compare my mixes to pro ones in terms of how loud they are. Anyways, I mean the LEDs at the very top which I believe indicate 0db has been exceeded not just hit (I should have been more specific about that). It's the red LEDs that are lit up at this timestamp in the video (at the very top outside of the meter, where it says CLIP)

Someone like selig can give you a better explanation than me but I was of the understanding peak is kinda like at that moment but lufs is more average perceived volume levels.

Perhaps put try a peak meter and aim for below 0db and see if clipping still occurs.

Im self taught so could be completely wrong

[fullforce]

The Learn How to Reason guy wasn’t really that knowledgeable tbh. Selig’s breakdown will help you a bit more.

This is a Reason Studios video. Come to think of it, where's that free 909 kong patch?

[avasopht]

The Learn How to Reason guy wasn’t really that knowledgeable tbh. Selig’s breakdown will help you a bit more.

This is a Reason Studios video. Come to think of it, where's that free 909 kong patch?

Totally forgot about that!

[selig]

They are correct, you can’t clip the master - but clipping the outputs IS audible before export.

This seems like a very technical, nitpicky distinction - master can't clip, but it does clip whenever you're listening to it or exporting it (unless it's floating rate export file).

You're right of course, but I still think it's better to assume that master CAN clip and behave accordingly, because inevitably it becomes the truth.

Not sure we’re disagreeing, except:
The truth is you can’t clip the master, because ‘floating point”.
That said…
You CAN clip the output and should thus always pay attention to levels at all stages.

[avasopht]

The SSL master is not the last link in the chain.

Any rack device could sure between the master out and the hardware interface out.

[jklok]

I am having luck with about -10 on the individual channels. It goes together with most patches, that seem to play around that level without any modification. If there is a clip it is usually something you can fix using sidechain and eq/compression. I try to keep the faders at 0, and find that most of the time it's about having the same level come out of an insert effect chain, and keeping sub groups active ducking pads and melodies when you need to hear the drums and bass cut through. It's a fine balance keeping the lo-end defined when doing a dense track, but the SSL does a great job making it easy to keep a good overview of everything. I usually have the mix hit up to zero peak and then use a tiny amount of mastering, just to flatten the track a bit more. The challenge being the mix needing as little mastering as possible.

[QVprod]

The Learn How to Reason guy wasn’t really that knowledgeable tbh. Selig’s breakdown will help you a bit more.

This is a Reason Studios video. Come to think of it, where's that free 909 kong patch?

my bad

[antic604]

This seems like a very technical, nitpicky distinction - master can't clip, but it does clip whenever you're listening to it or exporting it (unless it's floating rate export file).

You're right of course, but I still think it's better to assume that master CAN clip and behave accordingly, because inevitably it becomes the truth.

Not sure we’re disagreeing, except:
The truth is you can’t clip the master, because ‘floating point”.
That said…
You CAN clip the output and should thus always pay attention to levels at all stages.

Not sure either

I thought you're making a quantum physics theory-like argument, that the signal on the master doesn't clip while being there (which technically might be true), until you send it to master's output, i.e. to a file or speaker, because it needs to be converted from math to "reality"...

In that case we agree, although I see this argument as academic, because there's no point to have signal on master other than to hear it or export it to file. The peak & VU meters measure the output, not the signal "inside" of master.

So, similarly, I can appreciate the fact that when not measured we only know the distribution of probability for the position and speed of a particle (as illustrated by Schroedinger's cat being both dead and alive at once), but we'll know on of them for sure only when we'll "look" at it.

[raymondh]

To the first, avoid frequency build up. Seriously, IF that’s what is happening then that is the best solution.

I'm a huge fan of Trackspacer. Came across it when watching a video from Éric_Mouquet of Deep Forest and how he manages to get great clarity from his dense mixes with layers of pads etc. Really useful plug-in.

https://www.wavesfactory.com/audio-plugins/trackspacer/

[QVprod]

Not sure we’re disagreeing, except:
The truth is you can’t clip the master, because ‘floating point”.
That said…
You CAN clip the output and should thus always pay attention to levels at all stages.

Not sure either

I thought you're making a quantum physics theory-like argument, that the signal on the master doesn't clip while being there (which technically might be true), until you send it to master's output, i.e. to a file or speaker, because it needs to be converted from math to "reality"...

In that case we agree, although I see this argument as academic, because there's no point to have signal on master other than to hear it or export it to file. The peak & VU meters measure the output, not the signal "inside" of master.

So, similarly, I can appreciate the fact that when not measured we only know the distribution of probability for the position and speed of a particle (as illustrated by Schroedinger's cat being both dead and alive at once), but we'll know on of them for sure only when we'll "look" at it.

I'll add in here. It's not simply academic. The distinction really does matter. You can have clipping lights on the master but not hear audible clipping on the output. You will however hear that clipping upon export once floating point is no longer saving you from it.

[antic604]

I'll add in here. It's not simply academic. The distinction really does matter. You can have clipping lights on the master but not hear audible clipping on the output. You will however hear that clipping upon export once floating point is no longer saving you from it.

I'm pretty sure the playback already isn't floating point.

I only found one interface that supports 32-bit float: https://zoomcorp.com/en/us/audio-interf ... s/uac-232/ and I'm not sure Reason would be able to take advantage of it.