ReasonTalk.com

I have a project in which sliding the mixer's master fader has an audible effect but doesn't change the level entering the master section.

I've searched — quite thoroughly, I imagine — for ways in which things I might have disconnected something and found nothing.

I've been using Reason for many years (presently 12.7d3) and you'd think I could diagnose such problems myself by now.

I can devise any number of work-arounds, but that's not what I'm after. What I really want is to learn what I did so I can never do it again.

Can anyone suggest a checklist which might contain new-to-me items?

Is this only happening on one project? If so, can you load a "good" project side by side and just look for what is different.

Note: the master fader does not affect what is "entering the master section", it is controlling the final output of the master section (and thus Reason if no other devices are connected between the Master Outputs and the Hardware Interface).

You say moving the master fader has an audible effect but don't describe it in any way. Screen shots may jar someone's memory, so it wouldn't hurt to see some front/back shots just in case.

Here's what I came up with. I decided to try to intentionally create the scenario you described, and I was able to do so. If you use the Control Room output to key the Master Compressor, BUT you connect the Master Insert FX "TO" jacks directly to the Hardware Interface, you can get a situation where the amount of compression is controlled by the Master Fader, and not the overall volume/level.

They keys to check are to look and see exactly what is plugged into the Hardware Interface 1/2 Audio Output. Also check to see if anything is plugged into the Master Compressor KEY input (disregard all of my theories if you're not using the Master Compressor!). You can also try removing all connections to/from then Master Section except for the Master Out L/R (and make sure those are connected to Hardware Interface Audio Output 1/2). Let's see how far that gets us.

Thanks for jumping in so quickly with good ideas!

selig wrote: ↑

01 Dec 2023

Is this only happening on one project? If so, can you load a "good" project side by side and just look for what is different.

Ah. Yes. I didn't have my bug-screening hat on. I should already have compared and contrasted with other projects. Will do.

Note: the master fader does not affect what is "entering the master section", it is controlling the final output of the master section (and thus Reason if no other devices are connected between the Master Outputs and the Hardware Interface).

So the problem is probably in my head somehow, though that is interesting to hear in a couple of ways.

1. I am pretty confident I remember automating the mixer's master fader to control the level arriving in the master section. Maybe I am hallucinating that like an AI chatbot would.
2. Assuming you are right, which I am inclined to do, this kind of nullifies the advice Izotope gives for using their ditherer: Make sure Ozone is the last thing in the signal chain. In fact, again assuming you are right, it seems their having killed their stand-alone app must also effectively have killed their ditherer because how other than using their stand-alone app can one be sure Ozone is the last thing in the signal chain? I am still on Ozone 9, so perhaps they figured this out and dropped the ditherer from Ozone 10?

You have probably just realized that (2) is why it occurred to me to care about the details of what the master fader does.

You say moving the master fader has an audible effect but don't describe it in any way.

Oh, I just meant it has the expected effects on audible gain only. Nothing weirdly non-linear (or perhaps I should say non-logarithmic. ).

Screen shots may jar someone's memory, so it wouldn't hurt to see some front/back shots just in case.

Good idea. I may post some after I investigate more based on your other ideas.

Here's what I came up with. I decided to try to intentionally create the scenario you described, and I was able to do so. If you use the Control Room output to key the Master Compressor, BUT you connect the Master Insert FX "TO" jacks directly to the Hardware Interface, you can get a situation where the amount of compression is controlled by the Master Fader, and not the overall volume/level. They keys to check are to look and see exactly what is plugged into the Hardware Interface 1/2 Audio Output. Also check to see if anything is plugged into the Master Compressor KEY input (disregard all of my theories if you're not using the Master Compressor!). You can also try removing all connections to/from then Master Section except for the Master Out L/R (and make sure those are connected to Hardware Interface Audio Output 1/2). Let's see how far that gets us.

I'm definitely not smart enough to do anything that creative.

For what it's worth, I did tear down everything touching the master section (not a whole lot) and start from scratch.

Do you have some button direct monitoring or something? Can you show us the routing on the back?

integerpoet wrote: ↑

01 Dec 2023

Assuming you are right, which I am inclined to do, this kind of nullifies the advice Izotope gives for using their ditherer: Make sure Ozone is the last thing in the signal chain.

I found the page I remembered reading way back whenever:

https://support.izotope.com/hc/en-us/ar ... -dithering

Here's the important poop:

For (Ozone) dithering to work, it must be the absolute last edit performed on an audio file, except for the final conversion to 16-bit depth. This means that any effect applied after dithering, even a slight gain adjustment, or a sample-rate conversion, can undermine the positive effects of your dithering. For this reason, it's important to make sure that no changes are made to your mix between dithering and the conversion to 16-bit CD format, and that nothing changes this file afterwards - it needs to be written to CD exactly as it is, with no added gain adjustments or fades.

So, if you're using Ozone dithering, your fades need to occur before Ozone, which means you can't do them with the master fader. In the master section, one could insert before Ozone an RE which has a gain fader or knob and automate that control to perform the final fade. Of course, that would mean Ozone's output would measurably differ — in ways other than gain — as input gain decreases. But probably no one cares about that during the final fade unless it's conspicuously weird.

However...

Some hosts may reserve a special slot for dithering plug-ins to reside in, and are designed so that no fades, mixes, or gain changes can occur after the dithering plug-in is applied.

Reason ain't got such a slot. So I guess my next mission, should I choose to accept it, is to read about Reason's signal path between the output of the master section and the output file. I have a feeling it is not completely unobstructed even if the master fader doesn't move and Reason's dithering is disabled.

Or I could just make sure Ozone dithering is disabled, which seems to the default anyway, and let Reason do it. Because can I hear the difference? And, if I could, would I think enough other people can? Is this a cork-sniffing bat-ears consideration? Probably.

Or, because I'm still on Ozone 9, I could just use the stand-alone app. But because Ozone 10 drops the the stand-alone app, that's not a future-proof strategy.

integerpoet wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023

So, if you're using Ozone dithering, your fades need to occur before Ozone, which means you can't do them with the master fader. In the master section, one could insert before Ozone an RE which has a gain fader or knob and automate that control to perform the final fade. Of course, that would mean Ozone's output would measurably differ — in ways other than gain — as input gain decreases. But probably no one cares about that during the final fade unless it's conspicuously weird.

However...

Some hosts may reserve a special slot for dithering plug-ins to reside in, and are designed so that no fades, mixes, or gain changes can occur after the dithering plug-in is applied.

Reason ain't got such a slot. So I guess my next mission, should I choose to accept it, is to read about Reason's signal path between the output of the master section and the output file. I have a feeling it is not completely unobstructed even if the master fader doesn't move and Reason's dithering is disabled.

Sure Reason got that special "slot", simply put Ozone right before the connection to the outputs on the "hardware interface" rack device instead of in the master section.

As per dithering, I've been advocating for putting mastering stuff AFTER the Master Section and before the Hardware Interface. I have a combinator that sits there and when something changes (like getting Combinator 2) I modify it and save it again, then make sure it's also updated in my startup song (set in Prefs).

This is why Pro Tools has the non-standard routing of master inserts POST Fader (which is weird), but means you can put dither on an insert and still do a fade out on the mix. Not sure how other DAWs handle this, but in Reason it's done by inserting the mastering devices between the Master Output and the Hardware Interface - been doing it that way for years and it really makes sense because that's where (in the signal path) mastering historically happens (after the mix).

jam-s wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023

Sure Reason got that special "slot", simply put Ozone right before the connection to the outputs on the "hardware interface" rack device instead of in the master section.

selig wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023

As per dithering, I've been advocating for putting mastering stuff AFTER the Master Section and before the Hardware Interface. I have a combinator that sits there and when something changes (like getting Combinator 2) I modify it and save it again, then make sure it's also updated in my startup song (set in Prefs)... Not sure how other DAWs handle this, but in Reason it's done by inserting the mastering devices between the Master Output and the Hardware Interface - been doing it that way for years and it really makes sense because that's where (in the signal path) mastering historically happens (after the mix).

That sounds solid to me.

It didn't occur to me to try that because routing output to "hardware" seem (to me) a pretty unambiguous statement.

But I suppose the app must direct the audio stream into a file at some point. Why not at the "hardware"?

It would help if one could place a "device" such as Ozone visually between the master section and the "hardware" section.

One can route cables wherever one wants, of course.

The "Hardware" is basically just the path to your soundcard (driver). Once the bitstream is there it can easily be grabbed and encoded into a file as well.

integerpoet wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023

It would help if one could place a "device" such as Ozone visually between the master section and the "hardware" section.

I usually put all of those devices that sit between "Mixer output" and "Hardware Interface" simply in the extra Rack column to the left of the Mixer/Hardware IF Rack.

jam-s wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023

integerpoet wrote: ↑

03 Dec 2023

It would help if one could place a "device" such as Ozone visually between the master section and the "hardware" section.

I usually put all of those devices that sit between "Mixer output" and "Hardware Interface" simply in the extra Rack column to the left of the Mixer/Hardware IF Rack.

That is indeed what I just did. Great minds think alike.

Perhaps I'm mistaken but I don't believe Reason renders what is sent out to the hardware interface? I believe it renders was is on the Master Out from the Master Device. (Generally these are the same things of course!) But I'm not sure that items added after the master out are included in the export.

I've been scanning the manual for confirmation of that (as I'm sure I read it at some point) but now, of course, I can't find anything. I guess the test would be if there is no hardware output connected, does Reason still render an audio file (or you could put some obvious EQ in the chain and check that it's included in the export).

Just something to double check.

After a shower, I've remembered why I believe this is true. I use the Control Room outs to connect to the Hardware interface, but my master bus is still correctly rendered on export even though it's not connected to a hardware output!

Well I did the experiment and now I'm the idiot! It *is* taking the output from the audio interface and not the master bus. Which means routing the control room out to the hardware interface interferes with the export and I would say, defeats the purpose of the control room outs. This is definitely not made clear from the manual.

Changing the control room level affected the export level which is completely broken IMHO. Gah!

robussc wrote: ↑

04 Dec 2023

Well I did the experiment and now I'm the idiot! It *is* taking the output from the audio interface and not the master bus. Which means routing the control room out to the hardware interface interferes with the export and I would say, defeats the purpose of the control room outs. This is definitely not made clear from the manual.

Changing the control room level affected the export level which is completely broken IMHO. Gah!

That is the main reason why I’ve always advised against using the Control Room outputs. Most every interface I’ve used has a volume control already…

selig wrote: ↑

06 Dec 2023

robussc wrote: ↑

04 Dec 2023

Well I did the experiment and now I'm the idiot! It *is* taking the output from the audio interface and not the master bus. Which means routing the control room out to the hardware interface interferes with the export and I would say, defeats the purpose of the control room outs. This is definitely not made clear from the manual.

Changing the control room level affected the export level which is completely broken IMHO. Gah!

That is the main reason why I’ve always advised against using the Control Room outputs. Most every interface I’ve used has a volume control already…

Yeah, I do use that, but I’ve also appreciated monitoring the send returns in the SSL mixer.

I’ve managed to reconfigure my hardware to route the second output pair to the headphones, but now the Mac audio (which is routed to my interface) has gone AWOL just can’t win.

robussc wrote: ↑

06 Dec 2023

I’ve managed to reconfigure my hardware to route the second output pair to the headphones, but now the Mac audio (which is routed to my interface) has gone AWOL just can’t win.

Clearly: everyone needs a hardware output device with two stereo pairs, one for master out and one for control room out.

And a hardware mixer to control how much of each pair goes to headphones and how much of each pair goes to monitors.

Because one can never have too many knobs and faders or enough confusion and human error.