NNXT tenor sax preset “blart” is very ugly and grating

[robussc]

I’m sure saxophonists have a proper term for the overdriven sound you get from blowing hard, but I find the sampled versions for the NNXT to be really unmusical, in this case the Tenor sax case, but it’s also bad for the baritone too IIRC.

Am I’m doing it wrong? Is there a way to make it sound vaguely real/pleasing?

[Jackjackdaw]

Reason stock library is the wrong place to look for realistic multi sampled instruments . It’s all very basic and ancient.

[DaveyG]

Reason stock library is the wrong place to look for realistic multi sampled instruments . It’s all very basic and ancient.

I was about to say that exact same thing.
Many of those NNXT patches date from an era when hardware samplers typically had only a couple of MB of memory so multi-samples had to be small. Modern sample libraries use thousands of times more memory and still don't always manage to sound realistic! Sax is one of the hardest instruments to get right simply because of the amount of expression a human player puts into the sound.

You can still use the Reason library stuff for sounds but for realism you need to look elsewhere.

(Joey will be along shortly to big up SWAM libraries )

[Floyd42]

Am I’m doing it wrong? Is there a way to make it sound vaguely real/pleasing?

Here you go - https://soundpaint.com/products/tenor-s ... 1529530539

[robussc]

Am I’m doing it wrong? Is there a way to make it sound vaguely real/pleasing?

Here you go - https://soundpaint.com/products/tenor-s ... 1529530539

Lol, I feel like I was rick rolled!

[robussc]

Reason stock library is the wrong place to look for realistic multi sampled instruments . It’s all very basic and ancient.

Yeah, I guess I should have known that would be the answer. Is there a refill that improves the NNXT or is it a case of getting one of the VSTs with vast libraries like the Spitfire stuff?

[joeyluck]

You can still use the Reason library stuff for sounds but for realism you need to look elsewhere.

(Joey will be along shortly to big up SWAM libraries )

Yes, here I am reporting to big up the SWAM libraries lol

Aside from quality of samples, it's all about the expressiveness and control of dynamics. There's a few sax patches in Objekt that are pretty decent.

Here you go - https://soundpaint.com/products/tenor-s ... 1529530539

This is also great! I have this as well. I'm a fan of Soundpaint and their prices are hard to beat.

[robussc]

Here you go - https://soundpaint.com/products/tenor-s ... 1529530539

Lol, I feel like I was rick rolled!

Ha, the jokes on me I guess. I thought that was a link to a $30 plastic sax from China or something! lol Thanks for the link.

[robussc]

So I picked up the Soundpaint Tenor sax, but the Download button is not working in either Safari or Chrome, I've messaged their support (which is currently closed of course) - wondering if anyone here knows what's up? Or an alternate route?

Safari says: "Safari cannot open the page because the address is invalid." And Chrome just spins for second before doing nothing.

[robussc]

Ah dammit - it requires 10.14 and my music Mac is too old to upgrade to that.

[joeyluck]

Ah dammit - it requires 10.14 and my music Mac is too old to upgrade to that.

Oh shoot. What Mac do you have?

I'm on macOS 10.15 (Catalina) right now on a 2015 MacBook Air. I can upgrade to macOS 12 (Monterey). Some other devs I test for are starting to make macOS 11 (Big Sur) a minimum requirement, but I'm holding off upgrading because I'm in middle of several projects.

Sorry if you won't be able to use Soundpaint I'm sure they can refund it for you. They are really great group of people.

[joeyluck]

Ah dammit - it requires 10.14 and my music Mac is too old to upgrade to that.

Hey I just spoke to them via their Discord channel (it's a really great community worth joining).

They said this:

The engine can technically work on macOS prior to 10.14 (at least it used to), but the downloader will only download the files, not extract them, which was the issue we had previously.

They then suggested that you contact support. Hopefully they can help you!

[robussc]

Hey I just spoke to them via their Discord channel (it's a really great community worth joining).

They said this:

The engine can technically work on macOS prior to 10.14 (at least it used to), but the downloader will only download the files, not extract them, which was the issue we had previously.

They then suggested that you contact support. Hopefully they can help you!

Cool - thanks for that. Now I'm downloading currently on my laptop to hopefully connect with the sound engine on the music Mac. It seems like it should work. Just a ton of data to shuttle around!

Very excited for it so I'm glad it should work. The demos sounded fantastic. My cover is coming along amazingly well, this is just the weakest bit (well and any attempt at a vocal of course. This track demands a warm up, lol)

Amazingly a electric guitar sample from my Proteus 1 refill (I've still got a Proteus FX in a box here for sentimental reasons apparently) is doing a fantastic job for the guitar solo inside an NNXT (helped by the Softube Amp and a dual doubler, but still quite convincing.

[robussc]

Oh shoot. What Mac do you have?

A 27" iMac from 2009 I think The max it can go to is 10.13 - but amazingly audio software is generally remaining compatible, at least for now. I know eventually I'll have to switch it out, but it's been a trusty workhorse.

[deigm]

Thanks for introducing me to soundpaint. Demo's sound good and looks reasonably priced. To spend or not to spend. Hmmmm...

[reasonosaer]

i love that you made a post to say this, it inspired me to sample myself saying saxamophone through a tenor sax in mimic (which could be really good if they'd add a few dealbreaker missing features for people coming from mpc and serrato).

the original Reason sample library via NNXT is some real retro sample tech at this point but that probably won't stop RS from building a half-assed combinator, slapping a gui on it and selling some 20 year old samples for $99 as the Reason Brass RE, they are exactly that shameless. you should give it a shot when it comes out, it will sound less blarty with a real saxaphoney gui...

[reasonosaer]

Oh shoot. What Mac do you have?

A 27" iMac from 2009 I think The max it can go to is 10.13 - but amazingly audio software is generally remaining compatible, at least for now. I know eventually I'll have to switch it out, but it's been a trusty workhorse.

its cause real-time audio is built into mac OS (core audio) instead of the kludge that most Windows interfaces are amazingly still using (ASIO). apple flipped the cpu performance/price point edge PCs have had forever back in their favor even at apple price points with the m2 chips, they're that good. i've seen a recent mac mini with an m2 chip in it run a benchmark cubase session that a massive watercooled gaming rig PC with one of the fastest intel chips from like 4 years ago was choking on.

[jlgrimes]

Code: Select all

I’m sure saxophonists have a proper term for the overdriven sound you get from blowing hard, but I find the sampled versions for the NNXT to be really unmusical, in this case the Tenor sax case, but it’s also bad for the baritone too IIRC.

Am I’m doing it wrong? Is there a way to make it sound vaguely real/pleasing?

My guess is reverb and EQ.

Ambience play a good in getting a good sax/brass part.

Most Reason samples were recorded pretty dry and most factory patches are dry to allow the producer to customize the Ambience to their needs. As if you are going for a 50s Rock sax performance, the sax will be pretty dry but an 80s sax performance will be drenched with reverb. Reverb can sometimes smooth out alot of harshness.

Nowadays most modern sample libraries usually have Ambience built in the GUI and often comes with a fairly usable stock patch.

I'd say for something dry you might want to experiment with tape emulations.

Saxophones by nature have a bunch of harsh frequencies and I think tape helped tame alot of harshness that probably would have been present if many songs were digitally recorded. That said good use of EQ might also tame some of the harshness.

[robussc]

My guess is reverb and EQ.

Ambience play a good in getting a good sax/brass part.

Most Reason samples were recorded pretty dry and most factory patches are dry to allow the producer to customize the Ambience to their needs. As if you are going for a 50s Rock sax performance, the sax will be pretty dry but an 80s sax performance will be drenched with reverb. Reverb can sometimes smooth out alot of harshness.

Nowadays most modern sample libraries usually have Ambience built in the GUI and often comes with a fairly usable stock patch.

I'd say for something dry you might want to experiment with tape emulations.

Saxophones by nature have a bunch of harsh frequencies and I think tape helped tame alot of harshness that probably would have been present if many songs were digitally recorded. That said good use of EQ might also tame some of the harshness.

Thanks, I’ve picked up the SoundPaint tenor sax, which is very nice, but I’ve not yet found a way to “blart” it (that’s now the official term ), so I might try layering it with the sound from the NNXT and just drown it in reverb to smooth it out as you suggest. Perhaps put it as an insert and make it 100% wet? Will experiment…

[joeyluck]

Oh I thought you were trying to avoid the "blart" lol. Yeah the 1980 Tenor Saxophone Spectralius is maybe more of a sensual and jazzy sax? It's not very blarty or growly.

Although you can do plenty with it. Aside from the legatos and polyphonic legatos, I like the glissando/scoops at higher velocities. I usually need to go into the Touch module and set the velocity curve so it's easier to trigger on my keyboard.

You could try adding some subtle distortion or saturation?

[robussc]

Oh I thought you were trying to avoid the "blart" lol. Yeah the 1980 Tenor Saxophone Spectralius is maybe more of a sensual and jazzy sax? It's not very blarty or growly.

Although you can do plenty with it. Aside from the legatos and polyphonic legatos, I like the glissando/scoops at higher velocities. I usually need to go into the Touch module and set the velocity curve so it's easier to trigger on my keyboard.

You could try adding some subtle distortion or saturation?

Yeah, I don’t want it all the time, so the SoundPaint is doing a nice job for most of it, but when things start rocking it would be nice to get that signature power sound. Distortion is an interesting idea (as that is what is happening of course) not sure it’ll give the right sound, but worth a try.

Layering the NN-XT blart didn’t help (it’s a single sample so I loaded it into Mimic to pitch it right, but it just didn’t blend in any pleasing way).

[robussc]

You could try adding some subtle distortion or saturation?

Thanks for this idea. To implement it I created a parallel channel and added the distortion on there so I can bring it up when I need it. It has the bonus effect of adding volume too so it does give the impression of a sax getting over blown.

[crimsonwarlock]

The DX7, which could use a breath controller, came with a saxophone patch that was pretty usable. Blowing hard did actually overblow the sax sound. Back in the day, I played in a band with a real sax player, and we had a song where I played a second voice sax to his real sax. With the blowing expression and some delay and reverb, it can sound rather convincing.

It is patch 05 SAX BC on the second ROM that came with the DX7. This patch is also available for PX7 (and probably the now available PX1). Although the breath controller input is not implemented in PX7, I found that the TOUCH slider has the same effect on that patch, and you can of course automate that slider.

It should be possible to set this up with the free Dexed VST as well, but again no breath control there.