Cv sequencing of non western tunings possible in reason ?

[phletch432]

Hi,wondered if anyone on the forum has knowledge of if there are any ways within reason to organise CV values to non western pitch tunings

I've very intetested in this and in particular the work of the above author, Bo Constantinsen (highly recommend a read of this!) Who states:


The Sacred Sounds Scale harmonizes the frequencies 424, 432, 440 and 528Hz into a single Tuning having the 1/1 reference pitch on 256 Hz. This tuning scalecomes from the Natural Ascending Series of Harmonics 32 to 64 of the 8 Hz Funda-mental Tone and brings an end to the tuning dilemmas and consonance

So in essence in my head, i'd like to input values into a plug in /reason rack with sequencing capabilities of programmable pitch and for it to have note duration,note volume and swing

Starting with 256hz and using the authors mathmatical calculations to structure the relevant scales

I admit to Ltd techy knowledge but in my head it seems a reason-able aim

Any thoughts greatly appreciated and would live to hear other people thoughts on this short book

[huggermugger]

Here we go...

[huggermugger]

Neither the MIDI note spec nor Reason's CV note spec address microtuning. They are simply numbers/note names corresponding to the twelve keys of a standard chromatic octave. It's up to the instrument to pitch the notes up or down as needed. There was for a while an RE in the shop that provided a way to microtune each note, but it wasn't very effective and I think it's gone now. Other than that, AFAIK, there are no REs that do microtuning.

But there are VSTs that can do microtuning. Some do it by tuning the 12 notes of the octave internally, others by importing SCALA files, which are easy to customize. Microtuning VSTs that import SCALA include AAS (Chromaphone, String Studio, Lounge Lizard and Ultra Analog) and AudioDamage (Phosphor 3 and Continua). Some of Korg's VSTs (PolySix, MS20, MonoPoly) allow manual tuning. Arturia's Absynth and FM8 also do manual microtuning.

Here's the manual tuning layout in Korg's PolySix.

[Floyd42]

or

[phletch432]

thanks huggermugger for your thoughts and reason based cv knowledge and poss limitations, just to reply to extend the conversation if others are exploring such possibilities. entonal studio app is very in-depth app, looks a possible way for creators to explore microtunings in a daw so I may well explore that as a possible approach via that app, the creators youtube is very deep in content and well received, this example is bitwig based

i was kind of interested in a cv sequencing solution as a 2nd toolkit and as the very well researched and studied doc shared shows mathematical calculations i wondered if poss to program in desired values into cv like the microtuning app can . .

[phletch432]

https://whatmusicreallyis.com/papers/Bo ... 0Scale.pdf

[selig]

https://whatmusicreallyis.com/papers/Bo ... 0Scale.pdf

And this:
http://whatmusicreallyis.com
Part of what he is 'preaching' is that equal temperament doesn't sound good, and he claims to be able to train you to eventually agree with him.

I think, at least for me, it's all about what you are used to hearing. When I first heard Beauty and the Beast (Wendy Carlos) it sounded like instruments were out of tune to my ear. This is because I was used to equal temperament since it is all I've really experienced.
OTOH, if you grew up hearing a different scale/tuning, then equal tempered scales will likely sound out of tune to you.
That's my theory/experience, fwiw. Neither is "correct" or "universal", and each have pros/cons. But ONE is a industry standard, at least the industry I'm a part of, which is the tie breaker for me (that and it's getting harder and harder to acquire new tastes in life).

[huggermugger]

One approach you could try would be something like this. Subtractor is a good candidate for a sound source because it has an OSC PITCH CV Input on the back. You could use a sequencer like Sequences that has an additional CV lane. Patch the CV output from Sequences into the OSC PITCH CV Input of Subtractor. Put your notes into Sequences, then fine tune each one by adjusting the CV for that note. You could use a utility like GTune for precise tuning of each step.

[phletch432]

thanks for that idea . . personally I do not agree this man preaches (IMHO that seems a unnecessary slight), his course is very rational in how it evidences his research findings and propositions
I find Bo Constantinsen to be very clear,logical and articulate
He is very inquisitive in nature and very well researched, for some people of a different disposition perhaps used to following established industry rules /conventions due to attachments/monetary gain/salaries/reputations/not wanting to stand out as different etc then his knowledge may present a challenge but then again many innovators throughout history in all walks of life have encountered the similar reactions

is a very worthwhile watch as is his course

[jam-s]

I've very intetested in this and in particular the work of the above author, Bo Constantinsen (highly recommend a read of this!) Who states:

The Sacred Sounds Scale harmonizes the frequencies 424, 432, 440 and 528Hz into a single Tuning having the 1/1 reference pitch on 256 Hz. This tuning scalecomes from the Natural Ascending Series of Harmonics 32 to 64 of the 8 Hz Funda-mental Tone and brings an end to the tuning dilemmas and consonance

[phletch432]

Its a fascinating world where people can insult without taking the time to read or research as my post and its content would take quite some time to read and process imho the quick post content replies would suggest this hasn't happened. I'm pretty certain those targeting negative energy at this man and my post aren't even taking the time to read the PDF I attached and actually giving the post due consideration.such is the nature of quick click forums. But then again we live in a world where fourtet now goes back to back with skrillex Fortunatley my radar picks up on important details like these and none of this puts me off exploring or raising awareness of potentially very important areas of musical development. I note no one even responded to the innovative entonal app for microtuning..always good to put these things out in case lurkers find of interest

[Ahornberg]

Reason Studio is not the DAW of choice when it comes to microtonality. I would go for Bitwig Studio. If you like to mess around with CV-cables, go for VCV Rack. If you are working with VSTs only, go for MTS-ESP by OddSound.

More information at https://sevish.com/category/tutorials/

[selig]

Its a fascinating world where people can insult without taking the time to read or research as my post and its content would take quite some time to read and process imho the quick post content replies would suggest this hasn't happened. I'm pretty certain those targeting negative energy at this man and my post aren't even taking the time to read the PDF I attached and actually giving the post due consideration.such is the nature of quick click forums. But then again we live in a world where fourtet now goes back to back with skrillex Fortunatley my radar picks up on important details like these and none of this puts me off exploring or raising awareness of potentially very important areas of musical development. I note no one even responded to the innovative entonal app for microtuning..always good to put these things out in case lurkers find of interest

It is also a fascinating world where people can assume they are the only one ‘doing the research’. I read the entire paper, watched more than a few of his videos, commented specifically on what I read. No “quick post” here. I REALLY WANT this to be true, it would be awesome if it were and there was some universal frequency we could use to heal the planet. Seriously.

I also LOVE the dialog created by threads like this, and remain open to this day to learn new things about new areas of musical development.

I am also acutely aware of how much misinformation is out there, and even dropped out of recording school because of this (many, many years ago, before there are options for learning about the music world). So I try to be hyper informed and acutely aware I need to be able to back up every comment I make in the public arena.

But I also pointed out the incorrect assumptions at the root of this ‘information’, which makes any conclusions suspect IMO. For example, even if you had the most clear and logical arguments about the earth, if you were basing them all on a belief the Earth is flat then your conclusions are all suspect in my book. Same for the incorrect assumption a resonant frequency of the Earth is exactly 8 Hz (it is not, and it moves around). But more than that, there is no data connecting ANY specific frequency to well being or health on any level. Especially a precise frequency that just happens to fall exactly on our man made and completely arbitrary system of measuring frequencies, or the idea that all other frequencies are somehow “negative energy” and destructive in any way. Show me the evidence.

All to say, the information debunking stuff like this is FAR more compelling and scientific IMO than the arguments made to support such theories. And yet despite that I TRY to remain open, even taking time from my day to watch and read and re-read things I already know I find ‘suspect’, just to be sure I’m not overlooking something.

And I certainly did not mean to insult anyone in the process, so apologies if you felt insulted by any of my comments!

[Ahornberg]

I did not read the paper. As a microtonalist, I only trust my ears

[Chizmata]

regardless of the validity of all of this, in "edit->preferences->audio" you can change reason's master tuning in microsteps, so just go 440hz -8.

btw i dont buy the whole thing, if 432hz could rescue the world it would already have happened, as so many people have already experimented with it. of course it sounds a bit different but any effect must be homeopathic at best.

[huggermugger]

regardless of the validity of all of this, in "edit->preferences->audio" you can change reason's master tuning in microsteps, so just go 440hz -8.

That isn't microtuning, it's just moving the pitch reference away from A440. The tuning of all Reason's instruments will still be equal temperament, which is what the OP is trying to get away from.

[Tiny Montgomery]

or

Of course both of these vids are right in that there is a lot of woo and bullshit spread on this topic.

But Benn Jordan is just so impossibly smug that I can no longer watch him. I mean even in this video the look on his face in the thumbnail, the 3 letter i in "miiight", and that stupid f*cking eyebrow just make me want to slap him.

[Mataya]

Both videos are enough for anybody who is not biased and is willing to accept the facts. I wonder what your face look like when you are writing such nonsense?

M

[Tiny Montgomery]

Both videos are enough for anybody who is not biased and is willing to accept the facts. I wonder what your face look like when you are writing such nonsense?

M

I said both videos are correct did I not? And I saw the Neely one many moons ago and thought it was very good.

I just find Jordan insufferably smug - that's my reaction to him and these "well, akshually..." style of videos he does now - its an honest expression of my reaction so not "nonsense".

He has a choice in how he looks in his thumbnails and videos doesn't he? He is clearly good at creating videos, not disputing that, very professionally done. So he chose that image and the idiom in which he titled the video. I personally find that style he has adopted to be grating & smug so I no longer subscribe.

Oh and fyi my face looked absolutely gorgeous as I typed that (as it always does).

[phletch432]

@Ahornberg thanks for the bitwig tip, will research further, perhaps reason and thus reason talks isn't the way . . maybe testing out his proposition via CV is impossible or fraught with technicalities

@selig - whilst you have said you've read Bo's content - i'm confused because you then proceed to go on to flinging flat earth into it and numerous aspects that he doesn't cover that you add in so that really for me doesn't show a balanced or open mindset on this issue.

IMHO this just distracts from looking at his key value proposition of a system with a root value and then his calculations away from that being harmonically pure and aligned with the mathematics that he proposes exist in nature and addresses mathematical errors within other established systems, which he is clear and articulate on

perhaps a more open forum attitude would creates a better setting for progressive discussions with new members ?

so far feels more like being in a disruptive, secondary school classroom (not that anyone is the teacher here)

it would be of interest to see if any members have viewpoints on things he has actually put down as his data calculations such as him addressing the mathematical errors within other established systems

i haven't said or implied he is "the only one doing the research" so not sure what that is about

i was pretty clear I was seeking viewpoints from forum members on if reason or and CV is a potential tool to seek to try out and test out such a mathematical musical proposition, it would seem i have my answer to that in amongst the replies

IMHO he is a interesting person and I find his explanations backed up by audio based fact.he is not attached to conventions but seeks to find a common system beneath established systems and he should be applauded for this positive intention and work

[Ahornberg]

Only the Viking REs by Blamsoft support non-quantized CV-pitch values. All other built-in synths and REs (taht I tested so far) do quantize the CV-pitch to western standard tuning. All my trials with CV-pitch-bend led to nowhere, because the amout of pitch-bend is mostly set in the sound-patch parameters.

[phletch432]

seems to be a healthy forum discussing microtuning approaches here for anyone else interested https://forum.audiob.us/discussion/3409 ... -important

[ljekio]

Only the Viking REs by Blamsoft support non-quantized CV-pitch values. All other built-in synths and REs (taht I tested so far) do quantize the CV-pitch to western standard tuning.

not quite so
OSC Pitch socket (on all built-in devices) give access for non-quantized pitch.

[Ahornberg]

Only the Viking REs by Blamsoft support non-quantized CV-pitch values. All other built-in synths and REs (taht I tested so far) do quantize the CV-pitch to western standard tuning.

not quite so
OSC Pitch socket (on all built-in devices) give access for non-quantized pitch.

I only found OSC Pitch CV inputs on

Dr. Octo Rex
NN-XT
NN-19
Subtractor

am I missing something?

[ljekio]

Malstrom too.
Thor (and other devices with CV ins and mod matrix) can it through mod matrix.
I love this particular method, because I don’t like it through the pitch bend because of the unwanted portamento.