Reason 12.5.0 Released (VST3)

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earwig83
Posts: 206
Joined: 21 Mar 2015

Post 19 Dec 2022

crimsonwarlock wrote:
19 Dec 2022
earwig83 wrote:
19 Dec 2022


Is this accurate? because if so, this puts us all in a bad position for old file recovery in the future. My concern is that if the VST3 doesn't simply seamlessly replace the VST2 version, than we are basically going to eventually lose access to years of songs, no? I'm honestly a bit concerned about this and this was part of why I originally avoided VSTS altogether. If moving to VST3 breaks old song compatibility (should vst2 support eventually be dropped) than I feel I was right to never trust this format to begin with. It just goes to show how beautiful reason was until this vst nightmare came to our town. I regret getting sucked into the shiny VST word now for sure.
The VST-specification uses unique IDs to make sure that updates of a plugin will replace the plugin, while new versions might be able to be installed side by side with old ones, when compiled with new IDs. If VST3 plugins would automatically replace VST2 versions, that could create unwanted plugin behavior in a project because there might be differences between the VST2 and VST3 version that a DAW might not be able to handle. So, this is not an oversight, it's a security feature. And Reason Studios has absolutely zero control over this, as it is part of the VST-specification, which is controlled by Steinberg.
Yeah thanks for clarifying that. I figured it was bigger than a reason studios decision. This makes me concerned for the future of my song files compatibility with tracks already using VST2 versions... not to mention the annoyance of having double devices everywhere.

This could be solved in part if reason's browser was actually good. Which it is not at all. Can't even search for delays, unless delay appears in the device name. Needs tagging system to include device type and vst version, which would be a great solve. Instead, we would all have to make custom favourites list which is a huge data entry job that could be handled by quality browser implementations.

As far as not having VST2 supplemented by VST3 replacements I think this is a massive designed-obsolescence agenda being pushed by Steinberg. I get it but I don't like it. I could happily keep using VST2 but now I fear eventual support for that could be dropped, breaking hundreds of song files. It's like every time we get something new, the problems just get murkier. I'm somewhat regretting embracing all the cool VST stuff.

BeReasonable
Posts: 43
Joined: 26 Nov 2022

Post 19 Dec 2022

MuttReason wrote:
19 Dec 2022
mcatalao wrote:
19 Dec 2022


Auto Punch in. I need Auto Punch in.
OK, I’ll play….

1) Markers
2) Auto MIDI comp lanes (great for audio, why not MIDI too?)
3) MIDI clock out to multiple MIDI ports not just one port only, would make hardware integration easier.

Er, actually that’s it for me, for the DAW at least. Got what I need otherwise I think.

Oh, ability to have different zoom levels for the browser and the rack in the RRP would be great too but I suspect that would be v complicated and possibly not even feasible.

None of the above are really complaints though. And, for me, definitely not endless complaints…. :-)
Some more things that reason has needed forever:
- Sheet music display instead of just piano roll. Hate going back into an old song and having to figure out from the piano roll what key things are in and what the melody is doing
- Ability to split sequencer track out to seperate mix channels and not have to copy everything over to the new track. I want to be able to layer using the main mixer and not have to make every update to duplicate midi tracks.
- A simple half rack midi transpose device for instruments that do not have built in octave controls. Again, for layering, I want to be able to split things off simply and just have an instrument an octave up or down without a bunch of hassle.

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crimsonwarlock
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Post 19 Dec 2022

earwig83 wrote:
19 Dec 2022
This makes me concerned for the future of my song files compatibility with tracks already using VST2 versions... not to mention the annoyance of having double devices everywhere.
Reason has always been strong on backward compatibility. The implementation of VST3 is not to replace VST2 (although Steinberg wants to see it that way). There is absolutely no reason to expect Reason Studios to remove VST2 support, as that would break their promise of backward compatibility. And the VST2 plugins that you have used in your projects will be there as long as you keep them installed (and backup your installers :puf_wink: ). The new availability of VST3 has nothing to do with the backward compatibility of your projects. Nothing has changed in that regard.
-------
Analog tape ⇒ ESQ1 sequencer board ⇒ Atari/Steinberg Pro24 ⇒ Atari/Cubase ⇒ Cakewalk Sonar ⇒ Orion Pro/Platinum ⇒ Reaper ⇒ Reason DAW.

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StephenHutchinson
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Post 19 Dec 2022

BeReasonable wrote:
19 Dec 2022
They are going to have to install a filter in the browser to list VST2, VST3, or both types when browsing. Going through a double list of all my VSTs is going to suck HARD every time I want to find something. Especially with the giant icons they use.
I notice when scrolling through the VST2 and VST3s that are together... the VST3s have a little orange thingy in the top left corner and the VST2s have a little blue thingy in the left hand corner which helps to some degree.
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earwig83
Posts: 206
Joined: 21 Mar 2015

Post 19 Dec 2022

crimsonwarlock wrote:
19 Dec 2022
earwig83 wrote:
19 Dec 2022
This makes me concerned for the future of my song files compatibility with tracks already using VST2 versions... not to mention the annoyance of having double devices everywhere.
Reason has always been strong on backward compatibility. The implementation of VST3 is not to replace VST2 (although Steinberg wants to see it that way). There is absolutely no reason to expect Reason Studios to remove VST2 support, as that would break their promise of backward compatibility. And the VST2 plugins that you have used in your projects will be there as long as you keep them installed (and backup your installers :puf_wink: ). The new availability of VST3 has nothing to do with the backward compatibility of your projects. Nothing has changed in that regard.
ok, I'll hope for the best as that logic sounds, sound. That said, would it make sense to get in the habit of using the VST3 versions moving forward? Or is that all personal choice?

madmacman
Posts: 762
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

Post 19 Dec 2022

crimsonwarlock wrote:
19 Dec 2022
There is absolutely no reason to expect Reason Studios to remove VST2 support, as that would break their promise of backward compatibility.
Perhaps the confusion stems from the fact that shortly after the Steinberg announcement, there was discussion about whether Steinberg has the ability to revoke the VST2 license from other host manufacturers based on licensing law.

From what I recall: no, they can‘t.

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Jackjackdaw
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Post 19 Dec 2022

Is it now possible to load RRP inside stand-alone?

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esselfortium
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Post 19 Dec 2022

It would definitely be wise to use VST3 versions going forward, wherever possible. In the short term, it's not going to make much difference, but it's not impossible that some VST2 versions might eventually be no longer supported by their developers (and thus no longer be able to run on new computers after a while).

I recognize the potential issues with doing this, but I do hope that we can eventually get some optional function in Reason to swap VSTs for different versions, since so many developers (like iZotope and Native Instruments) love to spam our plugin lists with completely separate versions. Meaning that eventually I'm not going to be able to run my old projects that relied on Kontakt 5, because only Kontakt 7 and maybe 6 will run on newer Macs, etc.

(I'm probably going to end up keeping an old computer in a closet to work around this, but that's clearly less than ideal for a lot of reasons.)
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crimsonwarlock
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Post 19 Dec 2022

earwig83 wrote:
19 Dec 2022
would it make sense to get in the habit of using the VST3 versions moving forward? Or is that all personal choice?
I stay with VST2 for everything that is available as that. Mainly because most of the few VST plugins I use are freeware, and I just have to backup my VST2 plugin directory to be able to get them back if needed. VST3 plugins mostly come with an installer, so you have to re-install them individually if needed. There are a few exceptions, where the VST3 version is somehow better (like a resizable GUI). But since I've moved to Reason as my main DAW, I'm actually moving away from VST altogether. Precisely because of backward compatibility is so strongly covered with Reason native and RE components, and my Reason account is basically a complete backup of my DAW software.
-------
Analog tape ⇒ ESQ1 sequencer board ⇒ Atari/Steinberg Pro24 ⇒ Atari/Cubase ⇒ Cakewalk Sonar ⇒ Orion Pro/Platinum ⇒ Reaper ⇒ Reason DAW.

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crimsonwarlock
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Post 19 Dec 2022

madmacman wrote:
19 Dec 2022
crimsonwarlock wrote:
19 Dec 2022
There is absolutely no reason to expect Reason Studios to remove VST2 support, as that would break their promise of backward compatibility.
Perhaps the confusion stems from the fact that shortly after the Steinberg announcement, there was discussion about whether Steinberg has the ability to revoke the VST2 license from other host manufacturers based on licensing law.

From what I recall: no, they can‘t.
If they could, they would've already gone that route :puf_wink:
-------
Analog tape ⇒ ESQ1 sequencer board ⇒ Atari/Steinberg Pro24 ⇒ Atari/Cubase ⇒ Cakewalk Sonar ⇒ Orion Pro/Platinum ⇒ Reaper ⇒ Reason DAW.

madmacman
Posts: 762
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

Post 19 Dec 2022

crimsonwarlock wrote:
19 Dec 2022
If they could, they would've already gone that route :puf_wink:
True :lol:

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Arrant
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Post 19 Dec 2022

There is something fishy going on with window sizing of some resizeable VST3 plugins:
raw2.png
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Xaleph
Posts: 2
Joined: 19 Dec 2022

Post 19 Dec 2022

petecampbell wrote:
19 Dec 2022
I'm now using vst3 the korg wavestate plugin and i'm getting mad CPU spikes and pops.
Not sure how this translates to other plugins, but the cpu performance is changed.
I'm getting this too - songs that I had no problems loading I'm now having issues and I'm bouncing a lot of tracks that I didn't have to before.

This mainly happens when I'm using Serum (VST2 or VST3) with certain custom presets I haven't had any trouble with before. I may post this as it affects other bugs regarding CPU and timing (popping/fuzz etc). My CPU is pretty old, but again it worked with the previous version with no issues.


The "Options > Show CPU Load for Devices" helped out quite a bit.

Windows 10 Pro
Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-6600K CPU @ 3.50GHz, 3501 Mhz, 4 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)
Installed Physical Memory (RAM) 32.0 GB

I hope this helps.
:reason: Reason User since 2.0

earwig83
Posts: 206
Joined: 21 Mar 2015

Post 19 Dec 2022

crimsonwarlock wrote:
19 Dec 2022
earwig83 wrote:
19 Dec 2022
would it make sense to get in the habit of using the VST3 versions moving forward? Or is that all personal choice?
I stay with VST2 for everything that is available as that. Mainly because most of the few VST plugins I use are freeware, and I just have to backup my VST2 plugin directory to be able to get them back if needed. VST3 plugins mostly come with an installer, so you have to re-install them individually if needed. There are a few exceptions, where the VST3 version is somehow better (like a resizable GUI). But since I've moved to Reason as my main DAW, I'm actually moving away from VST altogether. Precisely because of backward compatibility is so strongly covered with Reason native and RE components, and my Reason account is basically a complete backup of my DAW software.
agreed that RE are the best!

petecampbell
Posts: 37
Joined: 29 Apr 2022

Post 19 Dec 2022

Im also experiencing lots of trouble with plugins sounding different when bounced to audio vs playing in the DAW. This problem is unacceptable.

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avasopht
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Post 19 Dec 2022

earwig83 wrote:
19 Dec 2022
Is this accurate? because if so, this puts us all in a bad position for old file recovery in the future. My concern is that if the VST3 doesn't simply seamlessly replace the VST2 version, than we are basically going to eventually lose access to years of songs, no? I'm honestly a bit concerned about this and this was part of why I originally avoided VSTS altogether. If moving to VST3 breaks old song compatibility (should vst2 support eventually be dropped) than I feel I was right to never trust this format to begin with. It just goes to show how beautiful reason was until this vst nightmare came to our town. I regret getting sucked into the shiny VST word now for sure.
I've been trying to bounce all of my tracks so that I can always access them (no matter the DAW, no matter whose machine I'm using).
---

petecampbell
Posts: 37
Joined: 29 Apr 2022

Post 19 Dec 2022

Xaleph wrote:
19 Dec 2022
petecampbell wrote:
19 Dec 2022
I'm now using vst3 the korg wavestate plugin and i'm getting mad CPU spikes and pops.
Not sure how this translates to other plugins, but the cpu performance is changed.


The "Options > Show CPU Load for Devices" helped out quite a bit.

Windows 10 Pro
Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-6600K CPU @ 3.50GHz, 3501 Mhz, 4 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)
Installed Physical Memory (RAM) 32.0 GB

I hope this helps.
Thanks i'll look into that.
I have a mac m1 so i have to see what that entails.

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challism
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Post 19 Dec 2022

Arrant wrote:
19 Dec 2022
There is something fishy going on with window sizing of some resizeable VST3 plugins:raw2.png
Is it RAW fish?
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Arrant
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Posts: 521
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Post 19 Dec 2022

challism wrote:
19 Dec 2022
Arrant wrote:
19 Dec 2022
There is something fishy going on with window sizing of some resizeable VST3 plugins:raw2.png
Is it RAW fish?
Probably, hovever this didn't fix the issue:
raw.png
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rorystorm
Posts: 649
Joined: 06 Jul 2019

Post 19 Dec 2022

Xaleph wrote:
19 Dec 2022
petecampbell wrote:
19 Dec 2022
I'm now using vst3 the korg wavestate plugin and i'm getting mad CPU spikes and pops.
Not sure how this translates to other plugins, but the cpu performance is changed.
I'm getting this too - songs that I had no problems loading I'm now having issues and I'm bouncing a lot of tracks that I didn't have to before.

This mainly happens when I'm using Serum (VST2 or VST3) with certain custom presets I haven't had any trouble with before. I may post this as it affects other bugs regarding CPU and timing (popping/fuzz etc). My CPU is pretty old, but again it worked with the previous version with no issues.


The "Options > Show CPU Load for Devices" helped out quite a bit.

Windows 10 Pro
Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-6600K CPU @ 3.50GHz, 3501 Mhz, 4 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)
Installed Physical Memory (RAM) 32.0 GB

I hope this helps.
I'm having huge cpu spikes and popping as well. The cpu load indicators are showing each mix channel hitting around 30%.... even when tgeres a single associated device only running at 2 or 3% - so not sure whats happening here.

Edit - this is just running REs, no VSTs at all

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 10963
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 19 Dec 2022

moalla wrote:
19 Dec 2022
:clap: Comb2 CV input upgrade, and Ryans explanation how to handle controls are great ;)
only waiting download is done
it´s black monday at reasonstudios :thumbs_up:
I’m not seeing anything about Combi 2 upgrade, can you elaborate?
Selig Audio, LLC

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jam-s
Posts: 2709
Joined: 17 Apr 2015
Location: Aachen, Germany

Post 19 Dec 2022

earwig83 wrote:
19 Dec 2022
Is this accurate? because if so, this puts us all in a bad position for old file recovery in the future. My concern is that if the VST3 doesn't simply seamlessly replace the VST2 version, than we are basically going to eventually lose access to years of songs, no? I'm honestly a bit concerned about this and this was part of why I originally avoided VSTS altogether. If moving to VST3 breaks old song compatibility (should vst2 support eventually be dropped) than I feel I was right to never trust this format to begin with. It just goes to show how beautiful reason was until this vst nightmare came to our town. I regret getting sucked into the shiny VST word now for sure.
That has been clear from the first day they implemented VST support. As VST don't come nicely bundled and automatically recompiled for new architectures or OS versions (unlike REs) some of those they will get outdated and unsupported by the flow of time. My advice is: For any project using VSTs you should always have their output also bounced in place or as stems to ward off any future problems after OS updates or licensing issues.

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jam-s
Posts: 2709
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Post 19 Dec 2022

BeReasonable wrote:
19 Dec 2022
- A simple half rack midi transpose device for instruments that do not have built in octave controls. Again, for layering, I want to be able to split things off simply and just have an instrument an octave up or down without a bunch of hassle.
This can easily be done for a long time by simply using a combinator.

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zoidkirb
Posts: 739
Joined: 18 Nov 2018
Location: Brisbane Australia

Post 19 Dec 2022

Jackjackdaw wrote:
19 Dec 2022
Is it now possible to load RRP inside stand-alone?
No, they seem to have disabled that possibility.

Xaleph
Posts: 2
Joined: 19 Dec 2022

Post 19 Dec 2022

rorystorm wrote:
19 Dec 2022
Xaleph wrote:
19 Dec 2022


I'm getting this too - songs that I had no problems loading I'm now having issues and I'm bouncing a lot of tracks that I didn't have to before.

This mainly happens when I'm using Serum (VST2 or VST3) with certain custom presets I haven't had any trouble with before. I may post this as it affects other bugs regarding CPU and timing (popping/fuzz etc). My CPU is pretty old, but again it worked with the previous version with no issues.


The "Options > Show CPU Load for Devices" helped out quite a bit.

Windows 10 Pro
Processor Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-6600K CPU @ 3.50GHz, 3501 Mhz, 4 Core(s), 4 Logical Processor(s)
Installed Physical Memory (RAM) 32.0 GB

I hope this helps.
I'm having huge cpu spikes and popping as well. The cpu load indicators are showing each mix channel hitting around 30%.... even when tgeres a single associated device only running at 2 or 3% - so not sure whats happening here.

Edit - this is just running REs, no VSTs at all
This is true - one of my Europa combinators has a relatively heavy CPU footprint, whereas my older copy of reason did not. It seems like they allocated more space for certain automation components (or sound in general) that scales differently than it did previously (I believe they eluded to this in the patch notes to support more VST automation). I also have an issue with Echo rolling on some of the CPU-hungry REs / VSTs that I didn't have before.

I'm due for a new computer, I may end up upgrading in 2023. 6th generation Intel is like 2016/2017 I think.
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