Reason 12.5.0 Released (VST3)

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DaveyG
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Post 20 Dec 2022

reasonosaer wrote:
20 Dec 2022
DaveyG wrote:
20 Dec 2022


I don't think Reason has any MIDI routing as such. I think it uses its own internal system which may not be very compatible with what we think of as MIDI. In a perfect world the back panel of every rack device would have MIDI ports as well as CV and we'd be free to interconnect/split/merge that stuff in any way we can think of but I think that is not as easy for RS to implement.as we might assume. As a result you get people using Combinators to route one "MIDI signal" to multiple things, which works but is very much a workaround rather than ideal.

I think this is also the reason that RS are reluctant to add support for VSTs that generate MIDI, such as Scaler 2, Captain Chords etc.
actually, unless reason is built in some really weird way i can't imagine it was a lot more work for them to partially implement vst and now vst3 support while completely disabling all midi routing functionality (which is part of the vst3 spec) and hiding it from the end user without breaking anything else (if they haven't, we'll see..). i suspect this is done because they want player REs to be the only composition aid type plugins available in the rack. by doing so they make reason and the rack plugin a walled garden for midi based music theory plugins that just so happen to be the fastest growing segment of the plugin market by far - ask someone from PB about sales numbers for scalar vs everything else they sell if you don't believe me. they apparently want this bad enough to do some more extra work making sure people can't use the rack plugin as a work around to get midi output from vsts in reason standalone.

basically they've created the same situation for player REs that they wanted for REs in general, i.e. to be able to sell plugins with zero resale value to a captive audience without having to actually compete in the vst market. i've worked with dozens of younger artists in their 20s who came up finger drumming on MPCs and are essentially one finger composers with zero knowledge of music theory and zero desire to learn any (why should they it hasn't held them back so far?) it's not a stretch to say that the majority of people under 30 i've mixed music for don't read music or play a traditional instrument and lots of them are using scaler / instachord / cthulu / captain plugins, etc. RS think they are being clever by forcing this crowd to buy players if they want access to that kind of composition in the rack, but i've literally never met a single person younger than myself (37) who uses reason, they're all using ableton, bitwig, or fl studio.

I imagine the hedge fund types steering the RS ship these days will again fail to learn the lesson their forebears at Props obviously didn't learn when they tried to do the same thing with REs thinking about all the money they were going to make and wound up being forced to sell their company instead. in that case they only reversed course when it became clear to them (several years after it was obvious to everyone but them including most of their userbase) that failing to support vsts in reason was a miscalculation that was going to be the end of the company unless they backtracked at which point they were already a decade behind the competition. that's how we got to the embarassing situation RS are in today where they have to publicly humiliate themselves by trotting out partial support for a standard everyone else implemented years ago as a major accomplishment. it's just as cringe as being really proud of adding crossfades in 2018 or partially implemented hi-res display support in 2021, etc, etc...
You are reading far too much into it and your soapbox seems very high for a completely new ReasonTalker. I'm guessing you have another ReasonTalk account.

I think if VST MIDI was simple to implement then RS would have already done it. Other theories are available but.... Occam's razor.....

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EnochLight
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Post 20 Dec 2022

DaveyG wrote:
20 Dec 2022
You are reading far too much into it and your soapbox seems very high for a completely new ReasonTalker. I'm guessing you have another ReasonTalk account.

I think if VST MIDI was simple to implement then RS would have already done it. Other theories are available but.... Occam's razor.....
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avasopht
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Post 20 Dec 2022

reasonosaer wrote:
20 Dec 2022
DaveyG wrote:
20 Dec 2022
...
actually, unless reason is built in some really weird way i can't imagine it was a lot more work for them to partially implement vst and now vst3 support while completely disabling all midi routing functionality (which is part of the vst3 spec) and hiding it from the end user without breaking anything else (if they haven't, we'll see..). i suspect this is done because they want player REs to be the only composition aid type plugins available in the rack. by doing so they make reason and the rack plugin a walled garden for midi based music theory plugins that just so happen to be the fastest growing segment of the plugin market by far - ask someone from PB about sales numbers for scalar vs everything else they sell if you don't believe me. they apparently want this bad enough to do some more extra work making sure people can't use the rack plugin as a work around to get midi output from vsts in reason standalone.

basically they've created the same situation for player REs that they wanted for REs in general, i.e. to be able to sell plugins with zero resale value to a captive audience without having to actually compete in the vst market. i've worked with dozens of younger artists in their 20s who came up finger drumming on MPCs and are essentially one finger composers with zero knowledge of music theory and zero desire to learn any (why should they it hasn't held them back so far?) it's not a stretch to say that the majority of people under 30 i've mixed music for don't read music or play a traditional instrument and lots of them are using scaler / instachord / cthulu / captain plugins, etc. RS think they are being clever by forcing this crowd to buy players if they want access to that kind of composition in the rack, but i've literally never met a single person younger than myself (37) who uses reason, they're all using ableton, bitwig, or fl studio.

I imagine the hedge fund types steering the RS ship these days will again fail to learn the lesson their forebears at Props obviously didn't learn when they tried to do the same thing with REs thinking about all the money they were going to make and wound up being forced to sell their company instead. in that case they only reversed course when it became clear to them (several years after it was obvious to everyone but them including most of their userbase) that failing to support vsts in reason was a miscalculation that was going to be the end of the company unless they backtracked at which point they were already a decade behind the competition. that's how we got to the embarassing situation RS are in today where they have to publicly humiliate themselves by trotting out partial support for a standard everyone else implemented years ago as a major accomplishment. it's just as cringe as being really proud of adding crossfades in 2018 or partially implemented hi-res display support in 2021, etc, etc...
Premature speculation 💦 will make you go blind.
---

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altron
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Post 21 Dec 2022

madmacman wrote:
20 Dec 2022
altron wrote:
20 Dec 2022
Surprise update! But is VST3 plugin MIDI out supported?
From the updated manual (p.380):
VST compatibility in Reason
• Reason 12.5 and later supports 64-bit VST3 and VST2 (2.4) plugins.
• Both Windows and Mac VSTs are supported.
! Multitimbrality in VSTs is currently not supported - only one channel per VST can be played back at a time. If you are using a multitimbral VST it will only receive on MIDI Channel 1.
! Reason does not support VSTs that output MIDI.
! VSTs are NOT supported in Reason Rack Plugin!
(Emphasis by me)
Bummer! MIDI out would have been the one decisive purpose to use VST3 plugins for me since I have some VST3s that generate MIDI. Other than that I don't see much point to replace any of my current VST2 plugins.
Trap is where music goes to die.

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StephenHutchinson
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Post 21 Dec 2022

So today after testing Reason 12.5 on my Windows PC and my old MacBook Air... and MacBook Pro (Catalina), I thought it would be reasonable to try on my main machine, the Mac mini M1. Updated it, opened it, tried a few VST3s and while they seemed to work, every single one of them crashed Reason when I went to delete the instance of the VST... and hard. Closed Reason, rebooted, tried again about 5 or 6 more attempts, and while this behaviour continued, I tried a whole bunch of other VST3s without deleting instances. Some worked, and I was able to save the Reason file, but others just crashed and burned, taking down the Reason application. Sorely disappointed. So not ready for prime time.

I usually back up the previous Reason app in the Applications folder so I went to delete the 12.5 app and restore the previous version and it throws up errors saying I have to reinstall Reason. WTF? I have no idea if it's going to overwrite my previous settings and at this point, I'm just hoping I can get back to square one, and am now downloading the full install of 12.2.10d39 now.

If it messes with all the various folders, ReFills and patches I have in the side bar of the browser, that will just suck badly. In that case, I'll probably just use RRP in Bitwig from this point onwards.

Anyone else have this kind of thing happen?
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stillifegaijin
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Post 21 Dec 2022

StephenHutchinson wrote:
21 Dec 2022
So today after testing Reason 12.5 on my Windows PC and my old MacBook Air... and MacBook Pro (Catalina), I thought it would be reasonable to try on my main machine, the Mac mini M1. Updated it, opened it, tried a few VST3s and while they seemed to work, every single one of them crashed Reason when I went to delete the instance of the VST... and hard. Closed Reason, rebooted, tried again about 5 or 6 more attempts, and while this behaviour continued, I tried a whole bunch of other VST3s without deleting instances. Some worked, and I was able to save the Reason file, but others just crashed and burned, taking down the Reason application. Sorely disappointed. So not ready for prime time.

I usually back up the previous Reason app in the Applications folder so I went to delete the 12.5 app and restore the previous version and it throws up errors saying I have to reinstall Reason. WTF? I have no idea if it's going to overwrite my previous settings and at this point, I'm just hoping I can get back to square one, and am now downloading the full install of 12.2.10d39 now.

If it messes with all the various folders, ReFills and patches I have in the side bar of the browser, that will just suck badly. In that case, I'll probably just use RRP in Bitwig from this point onwards.

Anyone else have this kind of thing happen?
I had the same VST3 crash when removing instances on my M1 Ultra Mac Studio and M1 Mac Book Pro but after restarting both machines the issue stopped. Might be Apple Silicon related but mine seems to have resolved with the reboot.

FYI - you can save and backup your favorites lists before reinstalling. I think the path is - User > Library > Application Support > Propellerhead > Reason

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Loque
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Post 21 Dec 2022

stillifegaijin wrote:
21 Dec 2022
StephenHutchinson wrote:
21 Dec 2022
So today after testing Reason 12.5 on my Windows PC and my old MacBook Air... and MacBook Pro (Catalina), I thought it would be reasonable to try on my main machine, the Mac mini M1. Updated it, opened it, tried a few VST3s and while they seemed to work, every single one of them crashed Reason when I went to delete the instance of the VST... and hard. Closed Reason, rebooted, tried again about 5 or 6 more attempts, and while this behaviour continued, I tried a whole bunch of other VST3s without deleting instances. Some worked, and I was able to save the Reason file, but others just crashed and burned, taking down the Reason application. Sorely disappointed. So not ready for prime time.

I usually back up the previous Reason app in the Applications folder so I went to delete the 12.5 app and restore the previous version and it throws up errors saying I have to reinstall Reason. WTF? I have no idea if it's going to overwrite my previous settings and at this point, I'm just hoping I can get back to square one, and am now downloading the full install of 12.2.10d39 now.

If it messes with all the various folders, ReFills and patches I have in the side bar of the browser, that will just suck badly. In that case, I'll probably just use RRP in Bitwig from this point onwards.

Anyone else have this kind of thing happen?
I had the same VST3 crash when removing instances on my M1 Ultra Mac Studio and M1 Mac Book Pro but after restarting both machines the issue stopped. Might be Apple Silicon related but mine seems to have resolved with the reboot.

FYI - you can save and backup your favorites lists before reinstalling. I think the path is - User > Library > Application Support > Propellerhead > Reason
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7514631
macOS: ~/Library/Application Support/Propellerhead Software/Reason
Reason12, Win10

Goriila Texas
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Post 21 Dec 2022

Reason also crashes Studio One to the point I had to take it out of my template. When launching S1 Reason launches and just freezes, it freezes when loading as an instrument and as an effect.
  • Fixed an issue where Reason Rack Plugin could crash when loading a document in Bitwig

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nikonovs
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Post 21 Dec 2022

Hi!
I have problem with Reason 12 after the update. It stopped launching at all. Previous versions worked fine. Does anyone have such a problem?
Do Reason have opportunity to download previous version before this update?
:reason: 8,9.1 :ignition: :re: Expanse, Solaris, FM4
:reason: Musician, :post: Composer

Tiny Montgomery
Posts: 356
Joined: 22 Apr 2020

Post 21 Dec 2022

nikonovs wrote:
21 Dec 2022
Hi!
I have problem with Reason 12 after the update. It stopped launching at all. Previous versions worked fine. Does anyone have such a problem?
Do Reason have opportunity to download previous version before this update?
Are you launching from the previous shortcut icon?

Chi-Individual
Posts: 287
Joined: 09 Apr 2020

Post 21 Dec 2022

So far, on a M1 MacBook Pro, D16 Drumazon crashes Reason as soon as it's loaded into the rack(10x now including uninstall and reinstall and MBP restarts), but so far no issues with Devastor or Decimort. Also IK Mixbox VST3 takes an average of 6-7seconds to load presets when using the arrows at the bottom. VST 2 is performing at about 1-2 seconds if not instant for most presets. All done in an empty rack with no other instruments or FX besides my default template.

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MrFigg
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Post 21 Dec 2022

Reason has been crashing if I drag a VST over another VST to replace it in the rack.
丰2ॐ

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ProfessaKaos
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Post 21 Dec 2022

nikonovs wrote:
21 Dec 2022
Hi!
I have problem with Reason 12 after the update. It stopped launching at all. Previous versions worked fine. Does anyone have such a problem?
Do Reason have opportunity to download previous version before this update?
https://www.reasonstudios.com/en/reason/updates
Reason 12 & 11.3 Suite PC- Windows 10, AMD Ryzen 9 5900x, Asus ROG CROSSHAIR Dark Hero VIII, 64GB G.Skill 3600C16 RAM, 980 Pro Samsung M.2, RTX3060.

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altron
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Post 21 Dec 2022

No MIDI Out support ...

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Trap is where music goes to die.

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EnochLight
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Post 21 Dec 2022

I never expected MIDI out, nor multitimbral MIDI. I just expected it to work at least in so far as VST 2 support does in Reason, which it pretty much does (plus the added "fix" of having the sidechain jacks on the back moved into better spots and getting more input/output options, along with increased max number of automatable parameters). Getting those options in the VST 2 module was nice, though.

Hopefully the instability/bugs people are having will be hotfixed in a maintenance update soon.
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joeyluck
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Post 21 Dec 2022

StephenHutchinson wrote:
21 Dec 2022
So today after testing Reason 12.5 on my Windows PC and my old MacBook Air... and MacBook Pro (Catalina), I thought it would be reasonable to try on my main machine, the Mac mini M1. Updated it, opened it, tried a few VST3s and while they seemed to work, every single one of them crashed Reason when I went to delete the instance of the VST... and hard. Closed Reason, rebooted, tried again about 5 or 6 more attempts, and while this behaviour continued, I tried a whole bunch of other VST3s without deleting instances. Some worked, and I was able to save the Reason file, but others just crashed and burned, taking down the Reason application.
MrFigg wrote:
21 Dec 2022
Reason has been crashing if I drag a VST over another VST to replace it in the rack.
stillifegaijin wrote:
21 Dec 2022
I had the same VST3 crash when removing instances on my M1 Ultra Mac Studio and M1 Mac Book Pro but after restarting both machines the issue stopped. Might be Apple Silicon related but mine seems to have resolved with the reboot.
Anybody who is having issues with any plugins, what plugins are they? That would be good to know so others of us can test it.

Have you confirmed the stability of these plugins in other DAWs? So far I'm not having any issues with any of the VST3 plugins I have here on macOS Catalina.

Be sure to report it.

Chi-Individual
Posts: 287
Joined: 09 Apr 2020

Post 21 Dec 2022

joeyluck wrote:
21 Dec 2022
Anybody who is having issues with any plugins, what plugins are they? That would be good to know so others of us can test it.

Have you confirmed the stability of these plugins in other DAWs? So far I'm not having any issues with any of the VST3 plugins I have here on macOS Catalina.

Be sure to report it.
Ticket already sent but I can confirm IK Mixbox VST2, VST3 and AU all work correctly in S1 V5. D16 Drumazon does crash S1, the AU version and VST, so not Reason specific.

Can anyone confirm the preset delay for Mixbox?

M1 MacBook Pro, macOS Monterey

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miyaru
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Post 21 Dec 2022

MrFigg wrote:
21 Dec 2022
Reason has been crashing if I drag a VST over another VST to replace it in the rack.
Tried it with VST 2 and 3 instruments and FX's, but no problems whatsoever...... I'm on a Win10 PC.

Tried focusrite plugins, NI Massive and Predator2
Greetings from Miyaru.
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Korg N1, Yamaha RM1x :thumbup:

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MrFigg
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Post 21 Dec 2022

miyaru wrote:
21 Dec 2022
MrFigg wrote:
21 Dec 2022
Reason has been crashing if I drag a VST over another VST to replace it in the rack.
Tried it with VST 2 and 3 instruments and FX's, but no problems whatsoever...... I'm on a Win10 PC.

Tried focusrite plugins, NI Massive and Predator2
I can’t remember what ones it was. Just got the “x has stopped working blah blah” dialogue box.
丰2ॐ

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miyaru
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Post 21 Dec 2022

MrFigg wrote:
21 Dec 2022
miyaru wrote:
21 Dec 2022


Tried it with VST 2 and 3 instruments and FX's, but no problems whatsoever...... I'm on a Win10 PC.

Tried focusrite plugins, NI Massive and Predator2
I can’t remember what ones it was. Just got the “x has stopped working blah blah” dialogue box.
I think it all depends on ones system, the used plugins and other variables which are hard to determine......... Maybe the new Reason isn't rock solid yet!
Greetings from Miyaru.
Prodaw i7-7700, 16Gb Ram, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 3rd gen, ESI M4U eX, Reason12, Live Suit 10, Push2, Presonus Eris E8 and Monitor Station V2, Lexicon MPX1,
Korg N1, Yamaha RM1x :thumbup:

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StephenHutchinson
Posts: 394
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Post 21 Dec 2022

stillifegaijin wrote:
21 Dec 2022
StephenHutchinson wrote:
21 Dec 2022
So today after testing Reason 12.5 on my Windows PC and my old MacBook Air... and MacBook Pro (Catalina), I thought it would be reasonable to try on my main machine, the Mac mini M1. Updated it, opened it, tried a few VST3s and while they seemed to work, every single one of them crashed Reason when I went to delete the instance of the VST... and hard. Closed Reason, rebooted, tried again about 5 or 6 more attempts, and while this behaviour continued, I tried a whole bunch of other VST3s without deleting instances. Some worked, and I was able to save the Reason file, but others just crashed and burned, taking down the Reason application. Sorely disappointed. So not ready for prime time.

I usually back up the previous Reason app in the Applications folder so I went to delete the 12.5 app and restore the previous version and it throws up errors saying I have to reinstall Reason. WTF? I have no idea if it's going to overwrite my previous settings and at this point, I'm just hoping I can get back to square one, and am now downloading the full install of 12.2.10d39 now.

If it messes with all the various folders, ReFills and patches I have in the side bar of the browser, that will just suck badly. In that case, I'll probably just use RRP in Bitwig from this point onwards.

Anyone else have this kind of thing happen?
I had the same VST3 crash when removing instances on my M1 Ultra Mac Studio and M1 Mac Book Pro but after restarting both machines the issue stopped. Might be Apple Silicon related but mine seems to have resolved with the reboot.

FYI - you can save and backup your favorites lists before reinstalling. I think the path is - User > Library > Application Support > Propellerhead > Reason
Ah so I see I'm not alone. Thanks for the confirmation, and the Favorites path... much appreciated!

I tried rebooting a few times but to no avail. I did come up with a kind of workaround for now until this may get fixed... If you put the offending VST3 inside a combinator and then delete the combinator, Reason doesn't crash.

Also, I went through every single VST3 on my Mac mini M1and seeing if any WOULDN'T crash.. and yes.. the Arturia collection, both instruments and effects worked fine, as did Cherry Audio. Others like AudioModern VST3s stuff bring down Reason hard. So it's kinda hit and miss at this point. I did a thorough run through on my MacBook Air (2015) (running the same Monterey version as the Mac mini) and got the same VSTs to crash. Earlier I had only tried the Arturia stuff but it looks like it''s a Mac specific issue rather than an M1 issue...
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ReFiils: Ambientia Cinematic Soundscapes | String Theory (Friktion) | Algoritmo (Algoritm)

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StephenHutchinson
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Post 21 Dec 2022

Loque wrote:
21 Dec 2022
stillifegaijin wrote:
21 Dec 2022


I had the same VST3 crash when removing instances on my M1 Ultra Mac Studio and M1 Mac Book Pro but after restarting both machines the issue stopped. Might be Apple Silicon related but mine seems to have resolved with the reboot.

FYI - you can save and backup your favorites lists before reinstalling. I think the path is - User > Library > Application Support > Propellerhead > Reason
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7514631
macOS: ~/Library/Application Support/Propellerhead Software/Reason
Loque, thanks for the path... much appreciated!
:reason: Reason User Since Version 1.0
:refill: Reason Sound Design & Content Creation
Sound Dimension https://www.sounddimension.io

ReFiils: Ambientia Cinematic Soundscapes | String Theory (Friktion) | Algoritmo (Algoritm)

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Arrant
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Post 21 Dec 2022

Another problem with VST3 unfortunately, the preset browser in the VST3 wrapper doesn't work.
Many plugins don't have internal presets browsers but rely on the one in the DAW. Reason never implemented this in a good way, but now it's completely broken.
Try any plugin alliance plugin in VST2 vs VST3 and you'll see what I mean.

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joeyluck
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Post 21 Dec 2022

Arrant wrote:
21 Dec 2022
Another problem with VST3 unfortunately, the preset browser in the VST3 wrapper doesn't work.
Many plugins don't have internal presets browsers but rely on the one in the DAW. Reason never implemented this in a good way, but now it's completely broken.
Try any plugin alliance plugin in VST2 vs VST3 and you'll see what I mean.
I just tested with PA's bx_oberhausen VST3 and had no issues. The preset I saved with the VST proxy device recalled all the parameter settings as I had saved them. I tried various other VST3s as well without any issues.

What isn't working for you? What plugins specifically are you using?

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Arrant
Posts: 517
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Post 21 Dec 2022

joeyluck wrote:
21 Dec 2022
Arrant wrote:
21 Dec 2022
Another problem with VST3 unfortunately, the preset browser in the VST3 wrapper doesn't work.
Many plugins don't have internal presets browsers but rely on the one in the DAW. Reason never implemented this in a good way, but now it's completely broken.
Try any plugin alliance plugin in VST2 vs VST3 and you'll see what I mean.
I just tested with PA's bx_oberhausen VST3 and had no issues. The preset I saved with the VST proxy device recalled all the parameter settings as I had saved them. I tried various other VST3s as well without any issues.

What isn't working for you? What plugins specifically are you using?
There are no presets to choose from in the little preset browser. Effects plugins, like the Lindell 80 channel or LISA.
VST2 versions of the plugins have the presets intact.

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