Re: Reason 12.2.10 Release Notes
Posted: 12 Nov 2022
People still want to use ReWire? Why?
To connect and synchronise two DAWs, neither of which are Reason.
Reason would be an amazing sound design tool if it had native support for video. I work with Nuendo and Logic for that kind of thing, and a lot of times I think "this would be better the way Reason does it", but I can't do it in Reason because I don't have video, and third-party solutions are unreliable.crimsonwarlock wrote: ↑12 Nov 2022There is always a use case that validates some avenue of development. However, that doesn't always mean it is a viable option for a company to focus on such a use case. The point I was trying to make, is that most people who do video-related things, will use platforms that are more (or even specifically) tailored towards this kind of thing. Especially as something like Resolve is available for free, or even incredibly cheap for the pro-version. They implemented VST3 not too long ago, and although I didn't try it yet, chances are that RRP works in Fairlight now.joeyluck wrote: ↑12 Nov 2022I disagree about music for video not being a necessity. It doesn't have to be feature length films. More and more people are composing music for media. To think that most people nowadays are still only writing music to release singles and albums is a huge oversight for a popular reason why many musicians today are drawn to compose music.
Let's look at this another way: If Reason Studios would implement video-features, it would be completely impossible for them to come even close to what something like Resolve brings in this regard (Fairlight is already incredibly powerful). We would soon see posts here about all the things other platforms have for video that are missing in Reason, followed by people stating that they have moved to something like Resolve because Reason is so f-ing bad at video. It is a no-brainer for Reason Studios to stay away from such a scenario.
Also, you don't really need video inside a DAW to be able to compose to visuals... Vangelis did it all the time
My metrics are:
YES!LittleBoy wrote: ↑13 Nov 2022My metrics are:
Cubase / Nuendo - VST3 Yes
Presonus Studio One - VST3 Yes
Ableton Live - VST3 Yes
Bitwig Studio - VST3 Yes
FL Studio - VST3 Yes
Cakewalk (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Motu Digital Performer - VST3 Yes
Ardour (Open DAW) - VST3 Yes
Tracktion Waveform (Free DAW) - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Sofware - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Beats (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Native Instruments Maschine - VST3 Yes
Roland Zenbeats - VST3 Yes
Reason Studios Reason - VST3 No
Do you need more metrics?
selig wrote: ↑13 Nov 2022YES!LittleBoy wrote: ↑13 Nov 2022
My metrics are:
Cubase / Nuendo - VST3 Yes
Presonus Studio One - VST3 Yes
Ableton Live - VST3 Yes
Bitwig Studio - VST3 Yes
FL Studio - VST3 Yes
Cakewalk (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Motu Digital Performer - VST3 Yes
Ardour (Open DAW) - VST3 Yes
Tracktion Waveform (Free DAW) - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Sofware - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Beats (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Native Instruments Maschine - VST3 Yes
Roland Zenbeats - VST3 Yes
Reason Studios Reason - VST3 No
Do you need more metrics?
I’m sad you left off all the DAWs I’ve used (except Reason) in the past 20+ years:
Pro Tools
Logic
Luna
That's not a metric whether they are having difficulties implementing vst3.LittleBoy wrote: ↑13 Nov 2022
My metrics are:
Cubase / Nuendo - VST3 Yes
Presonus Studio One - VST3 Yes
Ableton Live - VST3 Yes
Bitwig Studio - VST3 Yes
FL Studio - VST3 Yes
Cakewalk (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Motu Digital Performer - VST3 Yes
Ardour (Open DAW) - VST3 Yes
Tracktion Waveform (Free DAW) - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Sofware - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Beats (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Native Instruments Maschine - VST3 Yes
Roland Zenbeats - VST3 Yes
Reason Studios Reason - VST3 No
Do you need more metrics?
AU isn't really a Logic Pro proprietary plugin format. Yes, it's Mac only, but AU is supported by a bunch of other DAWs, like Ableton Live, Studio One, Tracktion (I think?), and of course, Luna.LittleBoy wrote: ↑13 Nov 2022None of those 3 daws support VST. So they are not applicable here. Logic and Pro Tools because they work with their proprietary plug-in formats, and Luna is a rare exception that can't even be purchased individually as you know.
But if we talk about the main DAWs with VST support, the only one that doesn't have VST3 support yet is Reason.
I don't know how it will be in English, but in Spanish a proprietary format is that it belongs to a specific company or group. It does not have to be used only by that company or group. So the AU is proprietary to Apple, but not exclusive to Apple.AnotherMathias wrote: ↑13 Nov 2022AU isn't really a Logic Pro proprietary plugin format. Yes, it's Mac only, but AU is supported by a bunch of other DAWs, like Ableton Live, Studio One, Tracktion (I think?), and of course, Luna.LittleBoy wrote: ↑13 Nov 2022None of those 3 daws support VST. So they are not applicable here. Logic and Pro Tools because they work with their proprietary plug-in formats, and Luna is a rare exception that can't even be purchased individually as you know.
But if we talk about the main DAWs with VST support, the only one that doesn't have VST3 support yet is Reason.
As a Mac guy, I'm perfectly content if my DAW only supports AU plugins.
But when should Reason have begun to implement VST3? Right away in 2017, as soon as VST2 was complete.
I had understood you in relation to them being the last to arrive with VST3 support.avasopht wrote: ↑13 Nov 2022That's not a metric whether they are having difficulties implementing vst3.LittleBoy wrote: ↑13 Nov 2022
My metrics are:
Cubase / Nuendo - VST3 Yes
Presonus Studio One - VST3 Yes
Ableton Live - VST3 Yes
Bitwig Studio - VST3 Yes
FL Studio - VST3 Yes
Cakewalk (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Motu Digital Performer - VST3 Yes
Ardour (Open DAW) - VST3 Yes
Tracktion Waveform (Free DAW) - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Sofware - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Beats (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Native Instruments Maschine - VST3 Yes
Roland Zenbeats - VST3 Yes
Reason Studios Reason - VST3 No
Do you need more metrics?
And it doesn't answer the question.
The question was WHEN is the exact cutoff point to determine whether they have difficulties with vst3?
"Everyone what has vst3" isn't a metric. You're effectively saying Reason was the last one to implement vst3, which is very different from a metric capable of reaching the conclusion.
You made the claim of difficulties.
That's not how you measure difficulties. It's a much better gauge of priorities, or development/release cycle.
There is no valid reason to claim professional software engineers don't know how to host vst3.
It's an ignorant claim. ANY competent software developer can implement a vst3 host without having difficulties.
Now, they might be having other difficulties (which I recall they did have with the bugs and whatnot).
AND we don't know anything about their next release.
For all you know, their rollout of vst3 and M1 support could be tied to a significant branch of code and is waiting on some other features being implemented and THAT is what we're really waiting for.
If any competent software developer can implement a VST3 host without having difficulties... Why haven't they done it already? I've read people from Reason Studios on this forum saying that implementing VST3 in Reason is not as easy as it is in other DAWs. You do not?ANY competent software developer can implement a vst3 host without having difficulties.
This is why I asked what is the exact cutoff point whereby anything past that particular date is "making fun of their clients".
Some people have said it MAY not be as easy in Reason as it might require them to change parts of Reason as well for VST3 devices to function well in a rack. For example, the way they do parameters and some other features just might conflict with Remote and require Remote to be redesigned.
avasopht wrote: ↑13 Nov 2022This is why I asked what is the exact cutoff point whereby anything past that particular date is "making fun of their clients".
It can't just be a matter of who is last. An assertion like that has to be quantified by date, not merely by who released it last.
Bearing in mind most of those hosts had VST2 support 20 years ago, if RS are "making fun of their clients" by implementing VST3 5 years after releasing a version with VST2, then were Ableton "making fun of their clients" by implementing VST3 10 years after VST3 was released in 2018?
Note: Native Instruments Maschine only just got VST3 support in the last month. Were they also "making fun of their clients"?
What about AKAI MPC? They still don't have VST3 support. Are they "making fun of their clients"?
Some people have said it MAY not be as easy in Reason as it might require them to change parts of Reason as well for VST3 devices to function well in a rack. For example, the way they do parameters and some other features just might conflict with Remote and require Remote to be redesigned.
And even if that were true, that wouldn't mean they're having difficulties (and they have directly responded to this saying they have not), it would just mean they have an incurred cost to resolve conflicts with what already exists in Reason.
... and that is IF that were true.
"Why haven't they done it already?"
What exact date (and Reason major version) do you think it should have been completed?
Were they "making fun of their clients" by not implementing VST3:
1. When they introduced VST2?
2. When they developed Reason 10, 11, or 12?
3. Instead of VST3?
It's easy to make a claim about an intention without any valid grounds.
Do you know something everyone else doesn't?
No, Mattias said here, literally, that by the very nature of Reason it was more complicated to implement VST3 than in other DAWs. I guess he does know things that we don't. And having to rewrite parts of the code or having to take actions that delay deadlines is having complications that prevent you from meeting deadlines. I don't think they don't know how to do it, but it is costing them more than they thought.Some people have said it MAY not be as easy
But I am talking about the previous roadmap. In which they advanced M1 support for December 2021 and VST3 for January 2022.joeyluck wrote: ↑13 Nov 2022They said they are "expecting [VST3] to reach [our] hands by end of year" back in June. https://reasonstudios.com/blog/ceo-road ... june-2022/
I think it's ok to be frustrated when things get pushed back, but it was five months ago that we learned of the new roadmap update and it feels like some energy here is fresh off of a new announcement.
This isn't about something they said they'll consider. We know they are working on VST3. We know they understand the importance of VST3 and it's why it was on the roadmap in the first place. We know they last said it would be here by end of year. So we've had an idea of when to expect it.
And that's why it's probably best to just wait and see what is in their next release.LittleBoy wrote: ↑13 Nov 2022But I am talking about the previous roadmap. In which they advanced M1 support for December 2021 and VST3 for January 2022.
https://reasonstudios.com/blog/roadmap-for-reason/
But you say that they "release updates" as if they were doing us a favor. It's their job. They charge €499 for a license and €199 for updates (or €20 per month) to do that.avasopht wrote: ↑13 Nov 2022And that's why it's probably best to just wait and see what is in their next release.LittleBoy wrote: ↑13 Nov 2022But I am talking about the previous roadmap. In which they advanced M1 support for December 2021 and VST3 for January 2022.
https://reasonstudios.com/blog/roadmap-for-reason/
We already know that roadmap had to be adjusted because of the bugs in R12 (and they had to do more with Hi-res support).
We also know what else they were developing because there have been a number of releases since then, right? That's why this thread is called Reason 12.2.10 Release Notes
I'm just saying that most responses like this were five months ago when the update was given. It was a bummer to hear, but I think much of that initial frustration has dissipated, given the time passed and all the updates, especially the big improvement to performance. Now I think that many of those feelings are turning to excitement in anticipation as we near the end of the year. VST3 is coming.LittleBoy wrote: ↑13 Nov 2022But I am talking about the previous roadmap. In which they advanced M1 support for December 2021 and VST3 for January 2022.joeyluck wrote: ↑13 Nov 2022They said they are "expecting [VST3] to reach [our] hands by end of year" back in June. https://reasonstudios.com/blog/ceo-road ... june-2022/
I think it's ok to be frustrated when things get pushed back, but it was five months ago that we learned of the new roadmap update and it feels like some energy here is fresh off of a new announcement.
This isn't about something they said they'll consider. We know they are working on VST3. We know they understand the importance of VST3 and it's why it was on the roadmap in the first place. We know they last said it would be here by end of year. So we've had an idea of when to expect it.
https://reasonstudios.com/blog/roadmap-for-reason/
I neither said nor implied anything to do with them doing us a favour.
And neither do I.
There will always be someone who wants to spew vitriol.joeyluck wrote: ↑13 Nov 2022I don't want Reason Studios to not give us roadmaps in the future, but maybe they need to transition to just telling us about plans for bigger features for that version without giving dates. Dates aren't as important. If R13 is announced and it doesn't include MPE support, but they say it is planned later for R13, I will be a happy R13 user.
They have had years to do it (VST3).while at the same time understanding that software development doesn't magic out features overnight
They are a company that develops software, this is a commercial transaction for them. And they have been the ones who have neglected the DAW for years, the ones who have released a botched update (Reason 12) full of bugs and performance problems, the ones who have raised the price of licenses by 42% and 54 % the price of updates after introducing one of their sloppiest versions, and those that are late with supporting technologies that all other DAWs have (in some cases years ago) not being able to meet their own roadmap.I hope they won't be too bothered about a few Debbie Downer's