Reason 12.2.10 Release Notes

This forum is for discussing Reason. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.

Yonatan
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Post 13 Nov 2022

Some kind of video-support would be handy as it is a standard and anyone has a phone to make video these days. But I do agree that it is an issue how to prioritize things. I would first like to see the DAW itself improve workflow features, MPE support.
When those things in place, video support need to come natively or if someone does it as a good VST3 or other solution. But multimedia is more a real thing today than back when that word was overly used. Video clips is everywhere today. And it needs music and sound. Reason is such a good and fun tool for sound design and making songs. It would be a miss if video is totally ignored.

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DaveyG
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Post 13 Nov 2022

joeyluck wrote:
12 Nov 2022
People still want to use ReWire? Why?
To connect and synchronise two DAWs, neither of which are Reason.
To connect a DAW to a Reason project that includes VSTs, particularly one that includes Combis that host VSTs.

It could also have been an elegant solution to your video requirements. Rewire Reason to a video editor/player. Job done.

Rewire was not just a Reason thing. The latest Cubase and Studio One releases have both triggered complaints about the removal of Rewire. and feature requests to put it back! Some of those users were not using Reason.

A perfect world would give us RRP *and* Rewire. More flexibility and backward compatibility. But we know it won't happen.

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LittleBoy
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Post 13 Nov 2022

crimsonwarlock wrote:
12 Nov 2022
joeyluck wrote:
12 Nov 2022
I disagree about music for video not being a necessity. It doesn't have to be feature length films. More and more people are composing music for media. To think that most people nowadays are still only writing music to release singles and albums is a huge oversight for a popular reason why many musicians today are drawn to compose music.
There is always a use case that validates some avenue of development. However, that doesn't always mean it is a viable option for a company to focus on such a use case. The point I was trying to make, is that most people who do video-related things, will use platforms that are more (or even specifically) tailored towards this kind of thing. Especially as something like Resolve is available for free, or even incredibly cheap for the pro-version. They implemented VST3 not too long ago, and although I didn't try it yet, chances are that RRP works in Fairlight now.

Let's look at this another way: If Reason Studios would implement video-features, it would be completely impossible for them to come even close to what something like Resolve brings in this regard (Fairlight is already incredibly powerful). We would soon see posts here about all the things other platforms have for video that are missing in Reason, followed by people stating that they have moved to something like Resolve because Reason is so f-ing bad at video. It is a no-brainer for Reason Studios to stay away from such a scenario.

Also, you don't really need video inside a DAW to be able to compose to visuals... Vangelis did it all the time :puf_wink:
Reason would be an amazing sound design tool if it had native support for video. I work with Nuendo and Logic for that kind of thing, and a lot of times I think "this would be better the way Reason does it", but I can't do it in Reason because I don't have video, and third-party solutions are unreliable.

Also, integrating basic video support like Ableton Live has can't be too difficult if there are people selling VST plugins for $20 that do it (but not quite well). But no, I don't trust Reason to add it.

Ludwig Göransson (has an Oscar) or Cliff Martinez, among other renowned composers, use Ableton Live to compose soundtracks. No one is asking Reason to compete with Pro Tools as the mixing standard for film productions, but any professional DAW should support video.

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LittleBoy
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Post 13 Nov 2022

avasopht wrote:
11 Nov 2022
LittleBoy wrote:
11 Nov 2022
They are the only DAW with VST support that does not support VST3. If they are not having difficulties, then they are making fun of their users.
How so?

Exactly what month was the cut-off (or other metric) to reach this conclusion?
My metrics are:

Cubase / Nuendo - VST3 Yes
Presonus Studio One - VST3 Yes
Ableton Live - VST3 Yes
Bitwig Studio - VST3 Yes
FL Studio - VST3 Yes
Cakewalk (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Motu Digital Performer - VST3 Yes
Ardour (Open DAW) - VST3 Yes
Tracktion Waveform (Free DAW) - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Sofware - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Beats (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Native Instruments Maschine - VST3 Yes
Roland Zenbeats - VST3 Yes

Reason Studios Reason - VST3 No

Do you need more metrics?

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selig
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Post 13 Nov 2022

LittleBoy wrote:
13 Nov 2022
avasopht wrote:
11 Nov 2022


How so?

Exactly what month was the cut-off (or other metric) to reach this conclusion?
My metrics are:

Cubase / Nuendo - VST3 Yes
Presonus Studio One - VST3 Yes
Ableton Live - VST3 Yes
Bitwig Studio - VST3 Yes
FL Studio - VST3 Yes
Cakewalk (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Motu Digital Performer - VST3 Yes
Ardour (Open DAW) - VST3 Yes
Tracktion Waveform (Free DAW) - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Sofware - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Beats (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Native Instruments Maschine - VST3 Yes
Roland Zenbeats - VST3 Yes

Reason Studios Reason - VST3 No

Do you need more metrics?
YES!
I’m sad you left off all the DAWs I’ve used (except Reason) in the past 20+ years:
Pro Tools
Logic
Luna
Selig Audio, LLC

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LittleBoy
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Post 13 Nov 2022

selig wrote:
13 Nov 2022
LittleBoy wrote:
13 Nov 2022


My metrics are:

Cubase / Nuendo - VST3 Yes
Presonus Studio One - VST3 Yes
Ableton Live - VST3 Yes
Bitwig Studio - VST3 Yes
FL Studio - VST3 Yes
Cakewalk (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Motu Digital Performer - VST3 Yes
Ardour (Open DAW) - VST3 Yes
Tracktion Waveform (Free DAW) - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Sofware - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Beats (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Native Instruments Maschine - VST3 Yes
Roland Zenbeats - VST3 Yes

Reason Studios Reason - VST3 No

Do you need more metrics?
YES!
I’m sad you left off all the DAWs I’ve used (except Reason) in the past 20+ years:
Pro Tools
Logic
Luna

None of those 3 daws support VST. So they are not applicable here. Logic and Pro Tools because they work with their proprietary plug-in formats, and Luna is a rare exception that can't even be purchased individually as you know.

But if we talk about the main DAWs with VST support, the only one that doesn't have VST3 support yet is Reason.

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joeyluck
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Post 13 Nov 2022

And Reason has its own plugin format and supports VST. So maybe they are the ones ahead of the game?

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avasopht
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Post 13 Nov 2022

LittleBoy wrote:
13 Nov 2022

My metrics are:

Cubase / Nuendo - VST3 Yes
Presonus Studio One - VST3 Yes
Ableton Live - VST3 Yes
Bitwig Studio - VST3 Yes
FL Studio - VST3 Yes
Cakewalk (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Motu Digital Performer - VST3 Yes
Ardour (Open DAW) - VST3 Yes
Tracktion Waveform (Free DAW) - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Sofware - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Beats (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Native Instruments Maschine - VST3 Yes
Roland Zenbeats - VST3 Yes

Reason Studios Reason - VST3 No

Do you need more metrics?
That's not a metric whether they are having difficulties implementing vst3.

And it doesn't answer the question.

The question was WHEN is the exact cutoff point to determine whether they have difficulties with vst3?

"Everyone what has vst3" isn't a metric. You're effectively saying Reason was the last one to implement vst3, which is very different from a metric capable of reaching the conclusion.

You made the claim of difficulties.

That's not how you measure difficulties. It's a much better gauge of priorities, or development/release cycle.

There is no valid reason to claim professional software engineers don't know how to host vst3.

It's an ignorant claim. ANY competent software developer can implement a vst3 host without having difficulties.

Now, they might be having other difficulties (which I recall they did have with the bugs and whatnot).

AND we don't know anything about their next release.

For all you know, their rollout of vst3 and M1 support could be tied to a significant branch of code and is waiting on some other features being implemented and THAT is what we're really waiting for.
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AnotherMathias
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Post 13 Nov 2022

LittleBoy wrote:
13 Nov 2022
None of those 3 daws support VST. So they are not applicable here. Logic and Pro Tools because they work with their proprietary plug-in formats, and Luna is a rare exception that can't even be purchased individually as you know.

But if we talk about the main DAWs with VST support, the only one that doesn't have VST3 support yet is Reason.
AU isn't really a Logic Pro proprietary plugin format. Yes, it's Mac only, but AU is supported by a bunch of other DAWs, like Ableton Live, Studio One, Tracktion (I think?), and of course, Luna.
As a Mac guy, I'm perfectly content if my DAW only supports AU plugins.

But when should Reason have begun to implement VST3? Right away in 2017, as soon as VST2 was complete.

kitekrazy
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Post 13 Nov 2022

Now RRP shows up for me in Live,

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Kilsane
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Location: Villeneuve saint Georges - France

Post 13 Nov 2022

I'm happy that VST3 is implemented in Reason, but I would have preferred improvements of the RE SDK and given more possibilities to the developer of Rack extension.

Anyway I would be happy to be able to use my native opsix VST3 in Reason
Reason is the richest DAW, between VST and its own format (Rack Extension) which DAW can boast of having so many tools for creativity

My config
https://fr.audiofanzine.com/membres/1097104/products/

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LittleBoy
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Post 13 Nov 2022

AnotherMathias wrote:
13 Nov 2022
LittleBoy wrote:
13 Nov 2022
None of those 3 daws support VST. So they are not applicable here. Logic and Pro Tools because they work with their proprietary plug-in formats, and Luna is a rare exception that can't even be purchased individually as you know.

But if we talk about the main DAWs with VST support, the only one that doesn't have VST3 support yet is Reason.
AU isn't really a Logic Pro proprietary plugin format. Yes, it's Mac only, but AU is supported by a bunch of other DAWs, like Ableton Live, Studio One, Tracktion (I think?), and of course, Luna.
As a Mac guy, I'm perfectly content if my DAW only supports AU plugins.

But when should Reason have begun to implement VST3? Right away in 2017, as soon as VST2 was complete.
I don't know how it will be in English, but in Spanish a proprietary format is that it belongs to a specific company or group. It does not have to be used only by that company or group. So the AU is proprietary to Apple, but not exclusive to Apple.

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LittleBoy
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Post 13 Nov 2022

avasopht wrote:
13 Nov 2022
LittleBoy wrote:
13 Nov 2022

My metrics are:

Cubase / Nuendo - VST3 Yes
Presonus Studio One - VST3 Yes
Ableton Live - VST3 Yes
Bitwig Studio - VST3 Yes
FL Studio - VST3 Yes
Cakewalk (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Motu Digital Performer - VST3 Yes
Ardour (Open DAW) - VST3 Yes
Tracktion Waveform (Free DAW) - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Sofware - VST3 Yes
Akai MPC Beats (Free Daw) - VST3 Yes
Native Instruments Maschine - VST3 Yes
Roland Zenbeats - VST3 Yes

Reason Studios Reason - VST3 No

Do you need more metrics?
That's not a metric whether they are having difficulties implementing vst3.

And it doesn't answer the question.

The question was WHEN is the exact cutoff point to determine whether they have difficulties with vst3?

"Everyone what has vst3" isn't a metric. You're effectively saying Reason was the last one to implement vst3, which is very different from a metric capable of reaching the conclusion.

You made the claim of difficulties.

That's not how you measure difficulties. It's a much better gauge of priorities, or development/release cycle.

There is no valid reason to claim professional software engineers don't know how to host vst3.

It's an ignorant claim. ANY competent software developer can implement a vst3 host without having difficulties.

Now, they might be having other difficulties (which I recall they did have with the bugs and whatnot).

AND we don't know anything about their next release.

For all you know, their rollout of vst3 and M1 support could be tied to a significant branch of code and is waiting on some other features being implemented and THAT is what we're really waiting for.
I had understood you in relation to them being the last to arrive with VST3 support.

And if they are not having problems implementing it, then they are making fun of their clients, for being the last one and for delaying their previous roadmap by a year.
ANY competent software developer can implement a vst3 host without having difficulties.
If any competent software developer can implement a VST3 host without having difficulties... Why haven't they done it already? I've read people from Reason Studios on this forum saying that implementing VST3 in Reason is not as easy as it is in other DAWs. You do not?

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avasopht
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Post 13 Nov 2022

LittleBoy wrote:
13 Nov 2022
And if they are not having problems implementing it, then they are making fun of their clients, for being the last one and for delaying their previous roadmap by a year.
This is why I asked what is the exact cutoff point whereby anything past that particular date is "making fun of their clients".

It can't just be a matter of who is last. An assertion like that has to be quantified by date, not merely by who released it last.

Bearing in mind most of those hosts had VST2 support 20 years ago, if RS are "making fun of their clients" by implementing VST3 5 years after releasing a version with VST2, then were Ableton "making fun of their clients" by implementing VST3 10 years after VST3 was released in 2018?

Note: Native Instruments Maschine only just got VST3 support in the last month. Were they also "making fun of their clients"?

What about AKAI MPC? They still don't have VST3 support. Are they "making fun of their clients"?
LittleBoy wrote:
13 Nov 2022
If any competent software developer can implement a VST3 host without having difficulties... Why haven't they done it already? I've read people from Reason Studios on this forum saying that implementing VST3 in Reason is not as easy as it is in other DAWs. You do not?
Some people have said it MAY not be as easy in Reason as it might require them to change parts of Reason as well for VST3 devices to function well in a rack. For example, the way they do parameters and some other features just might conflict with Remote and require Remote to be redesigned.

And even if that were true, that wouldn't mean they're having difficulties (and they have directly responded to this saying they have not), it would just mean they have an incurred cost to resolve conflicts with what already exists in Reason.

... and that is IF that were true.

"Why haven't they done it already?"

What exact date (and Reason major version) do you think it should have been completed?

Were they "making fun of their clients" by not implementing VST3:
1. When they introduced VST2?
2. When they developed Reason 10, 11, or 12?
3. Instead of VST3?

It's easy to make a claim about an intention without any valid grounds.

Do you know something everyone else doesn't?
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LittleBoy
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Post 13 Nov 2022

avasopht wrote:
13 Nov 2022
LittleBoy wrote:
13 Nov 2022
And if they are not having problems implementing it, then they are making fun of their clients, for being the last one and for delaying their previous roadmap by a year.
This is why I asked what is the exact cutoff point whereby anything past that particular date is "making fun of their clients".

It can't just be a matter of who is last. An assertion like that has to be quantified by date, not merely by who released it last.

Bearing in mind most of those hosts had VST2 support 20 years ago, if RS are "making fun of their clients" by implementing VST3 5 years after releasing a version with VST2, then were Ableton "making fun of their clients" by implementing VST3 10 years after VST3 was released in 2018?

Note: Native Instruments Maschine only just got VST3 support in the last month. Were they also "making fun of their clients"?

What about AKAI MPC? They still don't have VST3 support. Are they "making fun of their clients"?
LittleBoy wrote:
13 Nov 2022
If any competent software developer can implement a VST3 host without having difficulties... Why haven't they done it already? I've read people from Reason Studios on this forum saying that implementing VST3 in Reason is not as easy as it is in other DAWs. You do not?
Some people have said it MAY not be as easy in Reason as it might require them to change parts of Reason as well for VST3 devices to function well in a rack. For example, the way they do parameters and some other features just might conflict with Remote and require Remote to be redesigned.

And even if that were true, that wouldn't mean they're having difficulties (and they have directly responded to this saying they have not), it would just mean they have an incurred cost to resolve conflicts with what already exists in Reason.

... and that is IF that were true.

"Why haven't they done it already?"

What exact date (and Reason major version) do you think it should have been completed?

Were they "making fun of their clients" by not implementing VST3:
1. When they introduced VST2?
2. When they developed Reason 10, 11, or 12?
3. Instead of VST3?

It's easy to make a claim about an intention without any valid grounds.

Do you know something everyone else doesn't?

You're not getting it. I don't think they're making fun of their customers, I think they're having a harder time implementing it than they expected, for whatever reason. Arriving at the latest in technology is bad news and it is usually for some reason.

That other developers had VST 20 years ago is irrelevant, because PS also took a long time to implement it, which was another mistake. I don't want Reason to change its philosophy, to be like Nuendo or Logic, I already have Nuendo or Logic. But I do want that, maintaining its philosophy, they equip it with the minimum technologies to be able to work properly at all times. VST3, Apple Silicon. From there, well, it's up to me (or whoever buys or uses it), but a company that sells software at a professional price, the least it has to offer is compatibility for professional standards.
Some people have said it MAY not be as easy
No, Mattias said here, literally, that by the very nature of Reason it was more complicated to implement VST3 than in other DAWs. I guess he does know things that we don't. And having to rewrite parts of the code or having to take actions that delay deadlines is having complications that prevent you from meeting deadlines. I don't think they don't know how to do it, but it is costing them more than they thought.

And the precise moment in which they show that they have had complications that have not allowed them to fulfill their roadmap is precisely the moment in which they do not fulfill their roadmap. Because if a serious company gives a specific date for something, I want to think that if they don't meet it, it's because they couldn't, and I think Reason Studios couldn't, I don't think there was any bad intention. But that does not mean that those of us who believe it convenient cannot tell them that they are not doing things right, no matter how much it bothers you that we do it.

Native Instruments is also getting a lot of flak for its late support for M1 and because Maschine and Komplete Kontrol took a long time to support VST3. And yes, Maschine just added support for VST3 and for Apple Silicon... But it already has it. Reason doesn't, and we have no idea when those improvements will arrive. I think it is an important difference.

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joeyluck
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Post 13 Nov 2022

They said they are "expecting [VST3] to reach [our] hands by end of year" back in June. https://reasonstudios.com/blog/ceo-road ... june-2022/

I think it's ok to be frustrated when things get pushed back, but it was five months ago that we learned of the new roadmap update and it feels like some energy here is fresh off of a new announcement.

This isn't about something they said they'll consider. We know they are working on VST3. We know they understand the importance of VST3 and it's why it was on the roadmap in the first place. We know they last said it would be here by end of year. So we've had an idea of when to expect it.

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avasopht
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Post 13 Nov 2022

I think we'll have a better idea of why it took so long when they release it.

I'll bet you my last cookie they introduce something new.
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LittleBoy
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Post 13 Nov 2022

joeyluck wrote:
13 Nov 2022
They said they are "expecting [VST3] to reach [our] hands by end of year" back in June. https://reasonstudios.com/blog/ceo-road ... june-2022/

I think it's ok to be frustrated when things get pushed back, but it was five months ago that we learned of the new roadmap update and it feels like some energy here is fresh off of a new announcement.

This isn't about something they said they'll consider. We know they are working on VST3. We know they understand the importance of VST3 and it's why it was on the roadmap in the first place. We know they last said it would be here by end of year. So we've had an idea of when to expect it.
But I am talking about the previous roadmap. In which they advanced M1 support for December 2021 and VST3 for January 2022.

https://reasonstudios.com/blog/roadmap-for-reason/

Image

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avasopht
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Post 13 Nov 2022

LittleBoy wrote:
13 Nov 2022
But I am talking about the previous roadmap. In which they advanced M1 support for December 2021 and VST3 for January 2022.

https://reasonstudios.com/blog/roadmap-for-reason/

Image
And that's why it's probably best to just wait and see what is in their next release.

We already know that roadmap had to be adjusted because of the bugs in R12 (and they had to do more with Hi-res support).

We also know what else they were developing because there have been a number of releases since then, right? That's why this thread is called Reason 12.2.10 Release Notes
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LittleBoy
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Post 13 Nov 2022

avasopht wrote:
13 Nov 2022
LittleBoy wrote:
13 Nov 2022
But I am talking about the previous roadmap. In which they advanced M1 support for December 2021 and VST3 for January 2022.

https://reasonstudios.com/blog/roadmap-for-reason/

Image
And that's why it's probably best to just wait and see what is in their next release.

We already know that roadmap had to be adjusted because of the bugs in R12 (and they had to do more with Hi-res support).

We also know what else they were developing because there have been a number of releases since then, right? That's why this thread is called Reason 12.2.10 Release Notes
But you say that they "release updates" as if they were doing us a favor. It's their job. They charge €499 for a license and €199 for updates (or €20 per month) to do that.

The world isn't going to end because Reason doesn't have VST3 support, but I don't have to act like everything is full of unicorns and candy either.

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joeyluck
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Post 13 Nov 2022

LittleBoy wrote:
13 Nov 2022
joeyluck wrote:
13 Nov 2022
They said they are "expecting [VST3] to reach [our] hands by end of year" back in June. https://reasonstudios.com/blog/ceo-road ... june-2022/

I think it's ok to be frustrated when things get pushed back, but it was five months ago that we learned of the new roadmap update and it feels like some energy here is fresh off of a new announcement.

This isn't about something they said they'll consider. We know they are working on VST3. We know they understand the importance of VST3 and it's why it was on the roadmap in the first place. We know they last said it would be here by end of year. So we've had an idea of when to expect it.
But I am talking about the previous roadmap. In which they advanced M1 support for December 2021 and VST3 for January 2022.

https://reasonstudios.com/blog/roadmap-for-reason/
I'm just saying that most responses like this were five months ago when the update was given. It was a bummer to hear, but I think much of that initial frustration has dissipated, given the time passed and all the updates, especially the big improvement to performance. Now I think that many of those feelings are turning to excitement in anticipation as we near the end of the year. VST3 is coming.

I don't want Reason Studios to not give us roadmaps in the future, but maybe they need to transition to just telling us about plans for bigger features for that version without giving dates. Dates aren't as important. If R13 is announced and it doesn't include MPE support, but they say it is planned later for R13, I will be a happy R13 user.

I am the owner of Zebra2 + ZebraHZ. Aside from wanting both, I bought them a while ago based on the fact that owning both would grant me a free license to Zebra3. Zebra3 has been talked about for over a decade I think, and they might be within a year or so from releasing it. They're getting close. It has been a very long time, but they are keeping their promise. That's what's most important to me. Likewise, people who bought R12 are getting VST3 and M1 support.

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avasopht
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Post 13 Nov 2022

LittleBoy wrote:
13 Nov 2022
But you say that they "release updates" as if they were doing us a favor. It's their job. They charge €499 for a license and €199 for updates (or €20 per month) to do that.
I neither said nor implied anything to do with them doing us a favour.

You showed the roadmap.

I mentioned the updates to point out that they also do develop things that aren't VST3 as you didn't seem to be aware of this.
LittleBoy wrote:
13 Nov 2022
The world isn't going to end because Reason doesn't have VST3 support, but I don't have to act like everything is full of unicorns and candy either.
And neither do I.

Things don't have to be extreme yay or extreme nay you know.

We can, as intelligent human beings, acknowledge that the release of VST3 and M1 support is taking longer than expected (and even be frustrated with it), while at the same time understanding that software development doesn't magic out features overnight.

Things don't have to be either all doom and gloom or all delusionally positive.

We can hold both positive and negative thoughts and feelings about the same person or entity :thumbup:
Last edited by avasopht on 13 Nov 2022, edited 2 times in total.
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avasopht
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Post 13 Nov 2022

joeyluck wrote:
13 Nov 2022
I don't want Reason Studios to not give us roadmaps in the future, but maybe they need to transition to just telling us about plans for bigger features for that version without giving dates. Dates aren't as important. If R13 is announced and it doesn't include MPE support, but they say it is planned later for R13, I will be a happy R13 user.
There will always be someone who wants to spew vitriol.

I've seen how easily one forum member can turn a single developer away, ... but they've been in the game too long to let a few angry voices make them change course so easily.

They can see all of our speculation threads, and they know how right or wrong we are. So by now, I hope they won't be too bothered about a few Debbie Downer's
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LittleBoy
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Post 14 Nov 2022

while at the same time understanding that software development doesn't magic out features overnight
They have had years to do it (VST3).
I hope they won't be too bothered about a few Debbie Downer's
They are a company that develops software, this is a commercial transaction for them. And they have been the ones who have neglected the DAW for years, the ones who have released a botched update (Reason 12) full of bugs and performance problems, the ones who have raised the price of licenses by 42% and 54 % the price of updates after introducing one of their sloppiest versions, and those that are late with supporting technologies that all other DAWs have (in some cases years ago) not being able to meet their own roadmap.

If they don't mind being criticized after everything I've said, I don't care. And if you think it's bad that I criticize them for believing that they are doing things wrong in recent years, honestly, I worry even less.

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