are we going to see more perpetual versions ?

[Termigator]

are we going to see more perpetual versions ?


i think you should keep the rack version and some
refills on a sub

and cut off the daw as a seperate product and sell upgrades to it .

are you gonna out good things in for the people that just buy it outright ?

why don’t you seperate them for the two kinds of users there are ?

[deeplink]

I'm pretty sure they've been working long and hard on VST3 support.

That's a DAW standalone feature only.

So I'm sure we will continue to see perpetual updates.

[QVprod]

are we going to see more perpetual versions ?


i think you should keep the rack version and some
refills on a sub

and cut off the daw as a seperate product and sell upgrades to it .

are you gonna out good things in for the people that just buy it outright ?

why don’t you seperate them for the two kinds of users there are ?

What makes you think all subscribers are plug-in users and not DAW users? the only things currently exclusive to subscription are the sound packs.

[Propellerhands]

are we going to see more perpetual versions ?

Short answer, yes. Long answer - who knows. It is their business model and it works. I used to be in a same boat not so long ago thinking maybe they will move eventually away from DAW and onto sub model as rack plugin.

But right now I suspect they intend to keep it for the time being since Rack version works pretty flawlessly for other people in various DAWs. Reason Studios are shooting two birds with one stone. Having a DAW and a plugin that other people use in other DAWs. Reason will never be top DAW, but it could be top Plugin as a Rack.

[jlgrimes]

are we going to see more perpetual versions ?


i think you should keep the rack version and some
refills on a sub

and cut off the daw as a seperate product and sell upgrades to it .

are you gonna out good things in for the people that just buy it outright ?

why don’t you seperate them for the two kinds of users there are ?

I would think perpetual sales are a huge chunk of Reason's revenue so I doubt they would ever get rid of them.

Worst case they probably would just increase the price of perpetual versions.

Even if the DAW went away or got separated, there would still be a demand for perpetual plugins.

I think the option of a subscription or perpetual is the best solution as users have different needs.


Most subscription based products have a perpetual option as many users will refuse to join a subscription but gladly pay for the product outright

[Jagwah]

Props have not shown Reason much love in an extremely long time yet it feels like they could have ten times over in that time so find your own conclusion in that. Expect more of a heavy focus on R+ and of course rack devices.

I'm pretty sure they've been working long and hard on VST3 support.

That's a DAW standalone feature only.

So I'm sure we will continue to see perpetual updates.

That's cool I wasn't aware of that.

[Jagwah]

...many users will refuse to join a subscription but gladly pay for the product outright

I was of the same opinion until I was told over and over that I was wrong and subscriptions are tremendously popular and changing the game completely. I am still skeptical but we still need more time to see about this.

[crimsonwarlock]

I was of the same opinion until I was told over and over that I was wrong and subscriptions are tremendously popular and changing the game completely. I am still skeptical but we still need more time to see about this.

I've said it here before, subscription means you must be able to pay to USE the software. Getting a perpetual license means you must be able to pay to GET the software, but you can use it even when you cannot pay anything. Subscriptions work for people with steady income (is that even still a thing), but when you don't have that, then a subscription means you can't use Reason when you are out of money. And in my opinion, that's when you need your hobbies the most.

[Termigator]

I was of the same opinion until I was told over and over that I was wrong and subscriptions are tremendously popular and changing the game completely. I am still skeptical but we still need more time to see about this.

I've said it here before, subscription means you must be able to pay to USE the software. Getting a perpetual license means you must be able to pay to GET the software, but you can use it even when you cannot pay anything. Subscriptions work for people with steady income (is that even still a thing), but when you don't have that, then a subscription means you can't use Reason when you are out of money. And in my opinion, that's when you need your hobbies the most.

exactly that

subscriptions are greed
theres no need


and yes exactly that people who just take out subs and forget about it coming out there bank

not the people who have to check every penny or every direct debit

i like the option of skipping a version

even with subs i really don’t feel like i own it

feels like back when you used cracked versions to me

like your borrowing it until you can have it completly and own it yourself

subs is a good thing of someone needs to do a project and they haven’t got reason and they collaborate

but it’s not viable and wantable for me in the long term

that’s why i think

if they concentrate more on the rack

make the rack sub make it like a kontakt thing

add more cinematic libraries

and keep a small version for the daw and keep the daw seperate from that

i would be boss at this strategy and marketing and updating of this product

use amazons customer service as the base

ps: do the reason guys come in here anymore ?

[avasopht]

Props have not shown Reason much love in an extremely long time yet it feels like they could have ten times over in that time so find your own conclusion in that. Expect more of a heavy focus on R+ and of course rack devices.

Maybe ... but the Combinator 2 with its WISYWIG editor, high-dpi support, revamping of codebase for faster iterations, etc. suggest they're just as active as they were before. Plus they took on a new developer (an RE developer) full time.

If they didn't work on high-DPI support, that to me would sound more like they're not working on Reason

[avasopht]

exactly that

subscriptions are greed
theres no need

Firstly, it would only be greed if there were oodles of profits.

But I'd disagree that subscriptions are only for people with more money.

For some, subscriptions actually make it more accessible because they will rarely find themselves with hundreds of pounds to dish out for a full license.

Adobe Creative Cloud is a perfect example. If you're a new designer, you probably don't have $2,000+ to dish out on Premiere, After Effects, Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. A $50/mo subscription simply means that you can get started right away with minimal startup costs. Even a below-average designer should be able to pay for their subscription with their work.

Ditto for DAWs. Some people on low incomes would much rather dish out $15/mo for Presonus Sphere than a few hundred for Studio One.

Roland Cloud wouldn't exist if it was easier for the lowest-earning artists to just outright purchase full versions of whatever they wanted (which is an available option).

It's a personal choice, of course. Some on low incomes might prefer a higher upfront.

It's why the subscription model for purchasing mobiles is how the vast majority of people acquire their phones. I prefer to purchase my phone.

[avasopht]

...many users will refuse to join a subscription but gladly pay for the product outright

I was of the same opinion until I was told over and over that I was wrong and subscriptions are tremendously popular and changing the game completely. I am still skeptical but we still need more time to see about this.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the mixed messages ...

[deigm]

I'm kind of surprised we're still seeing this line of thinking.

What do you think makes more money, selling the subscription service, or selling the subscription service AND perpetual licenses?

It really is as simple as that.

[crimsonwarlock]

exactly that

subscriptions are greed
theres no need

Firstly, it would only be greed if there were oodles of profits.

.

Agreed. I don't agree with the "greed" argument. However, subscription are a way to make sure people keep paying. This goes to the heart of this discussion; if you have a perpetual license, you can decide not to pay anymore. Your license will still be there.

But I'd disagree that subscriptions are only for people with more money.

I didn't say "more money", I said "a steady income" (with room to spend, but that seemed obvious to me).

When you never had to turn dimes each month, you tend to think of "low income" as just a bit less than most have. The reality (and I'm speaking from experience here) is that many people have to struggle to make ends meet every month, they don't have 15 dollar spare each month. But every once in a while you get a bit of extra money, like a vacation bonus or end-year bonus, and you can buy yourself something nice that will bring value to your life... like a perpetual Reason license that is there to play with whenever you like.

The whole argument of people with low incomes getting subscriptions is completely flawed. When you have low income, the first thing you try to lower is recurring costs, like subscriptions.

[Termigator]

Firstly, it would only be greed if there were oodles of profits.

.

Agreed. I don't agree with the "greed" argument. However, subscription are a way to make sure people keep paying. This goes to the heart of this discussion; if you have a perpetual license, you can decide not to pay anymore. Your license will still be there.

But I'd disagree that subscriptions are only for people with more money.

I didn't say "more money", I said "a steady income" (with room to spend, but that seemed obvious to me).

When you never had to turn dimes each month, you tend to think of "low income" as just a bit less than most have. The reality (and I'm speaking from experience here) is that many people have to struggle to make ends meet every month, they don't have 15 dollar spare each month. But every once in a while you get a bit of extra money, like a vacation bonus or end-year bonus, and you can buy yourself something nice that will bring value to your life... like a perpetual Reason license that is there to play with whenever you like.

The whole argument of people with low incomes getting subscriptions is completely flawed. When you have low income, the first thing you try to lower is recurring costs, like subscriptions.

exactly your outgoings every months

you have to live that life to understand i guess

[Jackjackdaw]

Well they used to make money selling refill DVDs and time moved on. Then they sold Rack extensions and time moved on. Now they sell the subscription. I expect it contributes to their income stream as do perpetual license and upgrade sales. They probably don’t make a huge amount of money but hopefully enough to keep the lights on and continue with the snail paced development of the product.

[avasopht]

I didn't say "more money", I said "a steady income" (with room to spend, but that seemed obvious to me).

When you never had to turn dimes each month, you tend to think of "low income" as just a bit less than most have. The reality (and I'm speaking from experience here) is that many people have to struggle to make ends meet every month, they don't have 15 dollar spare each month. But every once in a while you get a bit of extra money, like a vacation bonus or end-year bonus, and you can buy yourself something nice that will bring value to your life... like a perpetual Reason license that is there to play with whenever you like.

The whole argument of people with low incomes getting subscriptions is completely flawed. When you have low income, the first thing you try to lower is recurring costs, like subscriptions.

Aah.

Yeah, I don't think music production software gets an easy ride for subscriptions.

At least with Adobe, you've no real need for it until you've got a paying client. The free alternatives are more than good enough to not even need them if you are making money.

Music, on the other hand, is one of the most expensive hobbies. Maybe the most expensive of all for the average person.

At the same time, subscriptions (especially if you're free to pull out when you want) can offer you quality tools for the one month you do need them. I did EWQL Creative Cloud for a year. I bounced a few tracks before the year was up. Had a bit of fun with it. Same thing with Roland Cloud (which is even better because I was only spending $5/mo most of the time).

With R+, however, I'm still on the fence. $20/mo is a bit too committal and makes me start considering the alternatives (EWQL, Presonus Sphere).

[crimsonwarlock]

Music, on the other hand, is one of the most expensive hobbies. Maybe the most expensive of all for the average person.

Music can be an expensive hobby, if you think you need expensive stuff. I've used only free plugins together with a Reaper license that cost me about 50 euros back then (and it still works fine). I would say that's pretty cheap. Of course, you need a computer, but you can use that for more than just making music. Even a one-time purchase of a Reason perpetual license is doable in the scenario that I gave (year-end bonus, etc.). I still won't call that expensive.

It gets expensive when you start paying monthly recurring sums of money, no matter how little it seems at a time.

With R+, however, I'm still on the fence. $20/mo is a bit too committal and makes me start considering the alternatives (EWQL, Presonus Sphere).

To put this into perspective, $20 was about a week of groceries to me, only a few years back.

[demt]

All those added synths you've got to shell out for tot up the cost then subs worth

[dakta]

For me, subscription works because of the accessibility - if I bought everything the subs got me then I'd probably make no music - i'd be bankrupt

"if you have a perpetual license, you can decide not to pay anymore"

I haven't done it but I beleive I can decide not to pay anymore either, consequence is temporary. I've no big issue paying a monthly as long as it';s not an absolute fortune (which RS isn't as it's just a few premium coffees every month, or twice the radio i used to listen to). The constant revenue stream might also keep RS a viable ship which despite peoples views on their attitude towards updates is a vital

Imagine having to buy hardware

[Termigator]

For me, subscription works because of the accessibility - if I bought everything the subs got me then I'd probably make no music - i'd be bankrupt

"if you have a perpetual license, you can decide not to pay anymore"

I haven't done it but I beleive I can decide not to pay anymore either, consequence is temporary. I've no big issue paying a monthly as long as it';s not an absolute fortune (which RS isn't as it's just a few premium coffees every month, or twice the radio i used to listen to). The constant revenue stream might also keep RS a viable ship which despite peoples views on their attitude towards updates is a vital

Imagine having to buy hardware

you must have money to burn if your paying £20 for a couple of coffees lol

i just like owning stuff tbh.

for me having it only for a month and
maybe it’s just my brain here but i don’t feel like it’s mine,
it just feels the same as cracking software to me
maybe i’m
different but
because i really don’t think about paying the developer i care more that it belongs to me , it makes me feel like i want to use it more because it’s my thing , it’s like i’m borrowing someone else’s television every month it’s nice i can watch stuff but i feel like ohh it’s gotta go back eventually if circumstances change its the same for me with subs ,
i think if stuff becomes sub only a lot more people will use the reason 12 cracked version

i’m on 11 now and i will stay there for a while unless 13 is great . i will never sub .

[Jagwah]

Props have not shown Reason much love in an extremely long time yet it feels like they could have ten times over in that time so find your own conclusion in that. Expect more of a heavy focus on R+ and of course rack devices.

Maybe ... but the Combinator 2 with its WISYWIG editor, high-dpi support, revamping of codebase for faster iterations, etc. suggest they're just as active as they were before. Plus they took on a new developer (an RE developer) full time.

If they didn't work on high-DPI support, that to me would sound more like they're not working on Reason

You could argue that Combinator 2 and its editor, codebase revamps, taking on a new RE developer and so much of what Props have done recently is all aimed at R+, with some of it also benefiting Reason standalone - yet as an afterthought.

I haven't looked at DPI support enough to understand it but if you think it is associated with progressing / upgrading Reason standalone that's great, and as Deeplink mentioned VST3 support means the same thing, we can only hope it happens in our lifetimes.

[Termigator]

Maybe ... but the Combinator 2 with its WISYWIG editor, high-dpi support, revamping of codebase for faster iterations, etc. suggest they're just as active as they were before. Plus they took on a new developer (an RE developer) full time.

If they didn't work on high-DPI support, that to me would sound more like they're not working on Reason

You could argue that Combinator 2 and its editor, codebase revamps, taking on a new RE developer and so much of what Props have done recently is all aimed at R+, with some of it also benefiting Reason standalone - yet as an afterthought.

I haven't looked at DPI support enough to understand it but if you think it is associated with progressing / upgrading Reason standalone that's great, and as Deeplink mentioned VST3 support means the same thing, we can only hope it happens in our lifetimes.

all that stuff apart from vst3 support
( which has taken so long even renoise implemented it quicker with there small tiny amount of coders )
is for
the rack plugin as well , i think vst3 has taken so long because it’s not a priority .
if reason was bought by bandlab or
something and given away free and just charged you for plugins and soundpacks
i would love it .

[crimsonwarlock]

You could argue that Combinator 2 and its editor, codebase revamps, taking on a new RE developer and so much of what Props have done recently is all aimed at R+, with some of it also benefiting Reason standalone - yet as an afterthought.

R+ is not Standalone DAW vs RRP, it includes both.

R+ is a payment schedule, it is subscription vs perpetual licenses. Any development they do for either the DAW or the RRP goes towards both R+ and the perpetual licenses equally.

So, no, you can't argue that.

[Jagwah]

You could argue that Combinator 2 and its editor, codebase revamps, taking on a new RE developer and so much of what Props have done recently is all aimed at R+, with some of it also benefiting Reason standalone - yet as an afterthought.

R+ is not Standalone DAW vs RRP, it includes both.

R+ is a payment schedule, it is subscription vs perpetual licenses. Any development they do for either the DAW or the RRP goes towards both R+ and the perpetual licenses equally.

So, no, you can't argue that.

My bad I got confused with the versions available.

I'm not so sure that the development of some of the latest features would mean the development of Reason standalone is happening. Developing / improving the RRP does not improve Reason standalone as far as I know? Don't forget for the longest time we have been debating if Reason standalone is going to be discontinued in some way, moving everyone to the RRP except for hardcore legacy users because of the obvious lack of interest / commitment / advancement from Props. The introduction of Combinator 2 did not all of a sudden alleviate those concerns, nor did High Res or any new rack devices etc etc - all of these could be considered a focus on the RRP.