How to sidechain in Reason, exactly? Is there an easy way?

[eXode]

I don't always use a ghost kick, and I guess the more correct term would be trigger. Like I said it depends on the source material, if I for some reason can't trigger from the kick directly (i.e. because I use a VST that doesn't offer gate outs) I can use a Redrum that follows the kick to trigger the sidechain envelope.

Have you had any luck using Sweeper to convert to a trigger? Seems it would be simpler than creating a new device and copying the kick pattern, but I’ve only used it to trigger drum samples…

Yeah, that's actually what I do mostly, esp with VST. I copy the kick pattern to a Redrum that triggers the Sweeper.

[joeyluck]

I've wondered about the misconception by some VST devs that Reason doesn't have sidechaining.

For instance, the Transmutator plugin has always worked in Reason. Yet the website says Reason is not supported because it doesn't support sidechaining.

sidechain disclaimer.png (391.09 KiB) Viewed 2903 times

I feel like I've seen this in other places too. I thought maybe there's confusion with Reason not having VST3 support yet and some people thinking that's necessary for sidechaining, but then there is a VST2 version of the plugin that loads in Reason, it has inputs 3&4 available and it works.

Or maybe the confusion is because Reason doesn't have a "sidechain" menu option? And because it is something done manually with cables, some devs don't realize it is there?

And maybe because inputs 3&4 are hidden in the "CV Programmer" section
I hope RS considers moving inputs 3&4 to the unexpanded view of the VST device panel. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7508602

[Propellerhands]

I've wondered about the misconception by some VST devs that Reason doesn't have sidechaining.

For instance, the Transmutator plugin has always worked in Reason. Yet the website says Reason is not supported because it doesn't support sidechaining.

I noticed it with many other plugins too, Reason as DAW was never in supported list even though the plugin works perfectly fine withing Reason.

My theory is it is simply lazy developers who do not or for some reason can not test their plugins in all the DAWS and furthermore, keep their plugins working in said DAWS if there are some updates later on. So it is easier for them just to not include Reason or outright tell it is not supported. At least, that's how I understand it.

[chimp_spanner]

Tutorial vid on audio and envelope sidechaining, with a CMB preset for you too!

[joeyluck]

I've wondered about the misconception by some VST devs that Reason doesn't have sidechaining.

For instance, the Transmutator plugin has always worked in Reason. Yet the website says Reason is not supported because it doesn't support sidechaining.

I noticed it with many other plugins too, Reason as DAW was never in supported list even though the plugin works perfectly fine withing Reason.

My theory is it is simply lazy developers who do not or for some reason can not test their plugins in all the DAWS and furthermore, keep their plugins working in said DAWS if there are some updates later on. So it is easier for them just to not include Reason or outright tell it is not supported. At least, that's how I understand it.

Yeah I've seen that too, where a dev says that in general, Reason isn't supported. But this one specifically says it's because Reason doesn't support sidechain audio connections...

[elMisse]

I wonder how difficult would it be to allow multiple outputs from same parallel outputs, so we could get rid of the hassle of multiple spiders etc...

[arnigretar]

I understand people want everything now and just want a preset and not in the proccess understand what sidechain is or what it does.
You could even sidechain with standard Spider Audio and old timer Comp-01

[dan_g]

My preferred approach is to use an output bus for the tracks I want sidechained. I create a Sweeper effect insert in that bus and configure it the way I want. I use the Gate output of the kick of either Redrum or Kong to trigger the Sweeper envelope. Depending on the source material I can choose to use a Redrum as a ghost kick to trigger the sidechain. The advantage of using Sweeper is that you can tweak the sidechain curve, or shape, to your liking.


sidechain_1_front.png sidechain_2_back.png

i use this method too. i love about this that you don't need an extra sidechain track for it to work.

slight variations: i sum up kick and snare cv with a spider and route the cv to a combi with a cableguys volumeshaper inside.


when sidechaining with audio i use the send 1 of the ssl and route it through an audio spider so i can run it to every compressor i need the signal. this also has the benefit of sending several tracks' audio to sidechain something. for example kick and snare.

[selig]

Have you had any luck using Sweeper to convert to a trigger? Seems it would be simpler than creating a new device and copying the kick pattern, but I’ve only used it to trigger drum samples…

Yeah, that's actually what I do mostly, esp with VST. I copy the kick pattern to a Redrum that triggers the Sweeper.

But have you tried using Sweeper to convert to a trigger? I’m aware you use triggers TO Sweeper, was asking about using audio to trigger Sweeper to specifically avoid the extra step of copy/paste the kick pattern and then have to keep any changes in ‘sync’ with the trigger playing device. Sorry if I wasn’t more clear…

[eXode]

Yeah, that's actually what I do mostly, esp with VST. I copy the kick pattern to a Redrum that triggers the Sweeper.

But have you tried using Sweeper to convert to a trigger? I’m aware you use triggers TO Sweeper, was asking about using audio to trigger Sweeper to specifically avoid the extra step of copy/paste the kick pattern and then have to keep any changes in ‘sync’ with the trigger playing device. Sorry if I wasn’t more clear…

Ah, yeah I've done that too, it can be super useful. Stating the obvious but you need two Sweppers then, one for the audio to trigger, and then one for the audio to be ducked.

[selig]

But have you tried using Sweeper to convert to a trigger? I’m aware you use triggers TO Sweeper, was asking about using audio to trigger Sweeper to specifically avoid the extra step of copy/paste the kick pattern and then have to keep any changes in ‘sync’ with the trigger playing device. Sorry if I wasn’t more clear…

Ah, yeah I've done that too, it can be super useful. Stating the obvious but you need two Sweppers then, one for the audio to trigger, and then one for the audio to be ducked.

Yes, you need two Sweepers, one for the kick and one for the bass (forgot about that part). But in messing around with it I find it incredible easy to get it up and running with minimal adjustments - mainly to the timing on the ducking envelope. You don't even needs any splitters or other tricky routing, just insert one Sweeper after the kick and one after the bass, connect a CV cable from Trigger Out on the kick Sweeper to Trig Envelope In on the bass Sweeper. Bypass the Sweeper on the kick and turn AUDIO TRIG on (the trigger out still functions when bypassed, but no audible changes are made to the kick sound). Then turn the Dry/Wet to 100% dry on the Bass Sweeper and then adjust Mod->Volume to negative values (this is where the actual ducking happens).
You can pretty much leave the rest of the controls where they are, but it's good to know there is plenty of control if you need it.
One reason the envelope is nice for this is you can sync it to the grid and get very precisely timed control, and do it "live" to any audio input signal.

[RandomSkratch]

Kick can’t mask the bass if it’s a traditional short kick. It doesn’t last long enough to ‘clash’ in my experience.

This is so often the case with modern kicks... they're too damn long! Shorten them up and see that in most cases it'll help with mixing and your track won't translate to a big club system like a wall of mud.

[eXode]

Then turn the Dry/Wet to 100% dry on the Bass Sweeper and then adjust Mod->Volume to negative values (this is where the actual ducking happens).

Not sure if you were aware, or maybe I didn't understand you correctly, but you don't need to use negative values with Sweeper. If you set Mod->Volume to a positive value it will actually start from a negative value to whatever your volume is set at. With the setting in the image for an example, the envelope will start from 0% volume. I find this approach easier for visualizing the actual ducking shape.

sidechain_1_front.png (165.71 KiB) Viewed 2708 times

[Propellerhands]

Kick can’t mask the bass if it’s a traditional short kick. It doesn’t last long enough to ‘clash’ in my experience.

This is so often the case with modern kicks... they're too damn long! Shorten them up and see that in most cases it'll help with mixing and your track won't translate to a big club system like a wall of mud.

How long is too long? Right now my kick in particular track that I am working on, lasts a bit more than 1 second (or 1 yard for our American friends. Ok bad joke). And it sounds pretty good without any side-chain or compressors. Only put OTT on a kick. I do not even know right now if I need it at all since said track sounds decent over monitors. For now, until I start finalizing it and fuck it all up.

But I get it (I think) because I never used side-chain and did not see much problems. It was more of a lack of EQing is my bass lines etc. The sweeper route should give me more control over the slope of compression. And I like visual stuff instead of relying on my ears.

[selig]

Then turn the Dry/Wet to 100% dry on the Bass Sweeper and then adjust Mod->Volume to negative values (this is where the actual ducking happens).

Not sure if you were aware, or maybe I didn't understand you correctly, but you don't need to use negative values with Sweeper. If you set Mod->Volume to a positive value it will actually start from a negative value to whatever your volume is set at. With the setting in the image for an example, the envelope will start from 0% volume. I find this approach easier for visualizing the actual ducking shape.


sidechain_1_front.png

Hey now that's a great tip. I'm so used to visualizing "gain REDUCTION" (aka: DUCKING) that I forget there's any other way of thinking about it, much less a far more logical way…

[RandomSkratch]

How long is too long? Right now my kick in particular track that I am working on, lasts a bit more than 1 second (or 1 yard for our American friends. Ok bad joke). And it sounds pretty good without any side-chain or compressors. Only put OTT on a kick. I do not even know right now if I need it at all since said track sounds decent over monitors. For now, until I start finalizing it and fuck it all up.

But I get it (I think) because I never used side-chain and did not see much problems. It was more of a lack of EQing is my bass lines etc. The sweeper route should give me more control over the slope of compression. And I like visual stuff instead of relying on my ears.

1 second is pretty long for a kick!

But obviously genre makes a difference here. A DnB kick that's 1 second is eternity but you could have an 808 kick that lasts longer than 1 second in a different genre...

Depending on how you're triggering the kick determines how to go about changing it but start by shortening the amp envelope while the track is playing up until there's a noticeable difference then increase it back slightly. The most important part is probably the transient which is only a very short portion of the kick (milliseconds). Where the body rings out is the thing that causes the build up and clashes with the other low end parts.

Wouldn't recommend putting OTT on the kick... what for?

I'm wondering if you're either monitoring at too low of volume or your speakers aren't producing low enough frequency and you're compensating?

Also check out James Wiltshire's Kick Drum video. Has some great tips.

[Propellerhands]

How long is too long? Right now my kick in particular track that I am working on, lasts a bit more than 1 second (or 1 yard for our American friends. Ok bad joke). And it sounds pretty good without any side-chain or compressors. Only put OTT on a kick. I do not even know right now if I need it at all since said track sounds decent over monitors. For now, until I start finalizing it and fuck it all up.

But I get it (I think) because I never used side-chain and did not see much problems. It was more of a lack of EQing is my bass lines etc. The sweeper route should give me more control over the slope of compression. And I like visual stuff instead of relying on my ears.

1 second is pretty long for a kick!

But obviously genre makes a difference here. A DnB kick that's 1 second is eternity but you could have an 808 kick that lasts longer than 1 second in a different genre...

Depending on how you're triggering the kick determines how to go about changing it but start by shortening the amp envelope while the track is playing up until there's a noticeable difference then increase it back slightly. The most important part is probably the transient which is only a very short portion of the kick (milliseconds). Where the body rings out is the thing that causes the build up and clashes with the other low end parts.

Wouldn't recommend putting OTT on the kick... what for?

Ok, now I exported that kick onto Audacity and I see that it is only 0.338 seconds long. Sory for misleading you. I was only aproximating with how fast the audio returns to zero in a mixer, that's where the number of 1 second came.

But it's fine . I mean, I specifically was looking for a kick for 3 hours today (first time I spent so long on a goddamn sample and I am not even EDM producer), I went through entire sample library in Reason 12, twice, including Rex loops. Listening to the same 15-20 second loop this entire time because I wanted to achieve the same sound as my "reference track". That track also had rather long punchy but deep kick.

I only put OTT to shape the sound and make certain frequences shorter, without it it it sounds even longer compared with OTT enabled. I am sure I did not overdid it. I always work conservatively. The reason for longer kick was that my track is kinda entire spectrum of frequences and high in treble and I wanted kick to be audible at lower volumes. More like ambienti-ish kick but still with a punch.

P.S. regarding the video, yes, I do mix inside open-back headphones, but always do a check through monitors too. Because my goal always is to sound good through speakers. They are only 5" but perfect for my room.

[selig]

If you have a long kick and a long bass, no amount of side chain is going to help because one is going to simply turn the other down for most of it's existence! And you can just do that with a fader…
OTOH, if one is short, you really don't need side chain.
This only applies when using side chain to solve mixing issues, doesn't apply for creative uses, and explains why I've not yet found a use for side chain to address masking issues. And it also doesn't apply if your sounds and arrangements don't cause conflicts in the first place.
Solutions for bass/kick frequency conflicts: many say to decide which of the two should occupy the low end. BUT, I say you also need to decide which of the two play the short vs the long 'game'. Remember that one way to avoid conflicts is to move the frequency, but an even better way in many cases is to use TIME to your advantage. Audio issues are often either in the time or the frequency domain (or both), and you may well need to address BOTH in many cases to fully solve the issue.
Bottom line: if either the kick or bass is short you probably don't need ducking, if they are both long ducking won't help. If they are both short, have them play off each other rather than with each other.

[RandomSkratch]

^^^ +1

[Propellerhands]

Sort of got it now. Played around with sidechain on one recent track and I noticed it was not necessary, so left only minimal amount of it and will re-evaluate on bigger monitors some time in a future.

I think the problem was my bass not having a sub bass (only mid bass frequencies) all along. And I was not paying attention at bass frequencies that much before, that's why on my speakers I couldn't hear it properly. It is as if I only started producing music 3 months ago, been ignoring so much quality wise.

[tomusurp]

thank you exode and chimp_spanner. those methods are literally the best out there. really clean and adjustable too. before the sweeper and the spider method I was using Devious Duck which is also very good. but these native solutions, especially routed through the send like chimp pointed out, is an absolute game-changer because of quick accessibility and the ability to save as a template.

sorry other DAWs, but we Reason users got the best sidechain options in the game!

[tomusurp]

Yeah, that's actually what I do mostly, esp with VST. I copy the kick pattern to a Redrum that triggers the Sweeper.

But have you tried using Sweeper to convert to a trigger? I’m aware you use triggers TO Sweeper, was asking about using audio to trigger Sweeper to specifically avoid the extra step of copy/paste the kick pattern and then have to keep any changes in ‘sync’ with the trigger playing device. Sorry if I wasn’t more clear…

sorry i'm not the most technical in Reason, I mostly produce a lot and study from guys like you and all those Reason tutorial channels, but can't you route VST audio into some native rack and then take the gate or the cv output into the trig envelope of Sweeper to solve your question?

also i can't imagine why would need to trigger a sidechain with a VST? unless you're using some sampler. typically my VSTs are only either synthesizers or effects

[tomusurp]

My preferred approach is to use an output bus for the tracks I want sidechained. I create a Sweeper effect insert in that bus and configure it the way I want. I use the Gate output of the kick of either Redrum or Kong to trigger the Sweeper envelope. Depending on the source material I can choose to use a Redrum as a ghost kick to trigger the sidechain. The advantage of using Sweeper is that you can tweak the sidechain curve, or shape, to your liking.


sidechain_1_front.png sidechain_2_back.png

i use this method too. i love about this that you don't need an extra sidechain track for it to work.

slight variations: i sum up kick and snare cv with a spider and route the cv to a combi with a cableguys volumeshaper inside.


when sidechaining with audio i use the send 1 of the ssl and route it through an audio spider so i can run it to every compressor i need the signal. this also has the benefit of sending several tracks' audio to sidechain something. for example kick and snare.

not sure if I'm understand you correctly, but why are you needed the volumeshaper? because it doesn't have sidechain triggering, only midi triggering, unlike Devious Duck which has sidechain trigger

but anyway why not just leave it at the spider SSL method? or do you mean that you use the volumeshaper method when not using the spider SSL?

[dan_g]

not sure if I'm understand you correctly, but why are you needed the volumeshaper? because it doesn't have sidechain triggering, only midi triggering, unlike Devious Duck which has sidechain trigger

but anyway why not just leave it at the spider SSL method? or do you mean that you use the volumeshaper method when not using the spider SSL?

i use the volumeshaper and it flawlessly works with cv as a trigger through a combinator (could do a small video showcasing how i do it in detail). i like volumeshaper because of its multiband possibilities.

the usage of both techiques depends on the project. for example when producing heavy dubstep i really need the exact volume shaping to zero. but when producing house/techno i want the more dynamic responding compressor method for smoother outcomes. or perhaps a combination of both.

[tomusurp]

not sure if I'm understand you correctly, but why are you needed the volumeshaper? because it doesn't have sidechain triggering, only midi triggering, unlike Devious Duck which has sidechain trigger

but anyway why not just leave it at the spider SSL method? or do you mean that you use the volumeshaper method when not using the spider SSL?

i use the volumeshaper and it flawlessly works with cv as a trigger through a combinator (could do a small video showcasing how i do it in detail). i like volumeshaper because of its multiband possibilities.

the usage of both techiques depends on the project. for example when producing heavy dubstep i really need the exact volume shaping to zero. but when producing house/techno i want the more dynamic responding compressor method for smoother outcomes. or perhaps a combination of both.

hmm, yeah i wouldn't mind if you made a little video. could you also do with a basic audio example? and you are saying the cv is triggering the volumeshaper perfectly anytime the kick or snare will hit? because i bought volumeshaper and contacted cableguys customer support and they said no sidechaining lol. so i guess neither did they or me know about a combi cv workaround???

but yeah would like to see the video, thank you