Is this Grain feature somewhere else?

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Jac459
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Post 08 Aug 2022

I am clearly a big fan of Grain, but there is one feature which is consistently blowing my mind, the spectral grain panel.
It is just a way too fun way to transform a cool sound in a cooler sound.
I have tried a few other granular synthesis instruments, the last one being pigments 3.5 and yet I fail to find anything that would be near this. Am I missing something ? Do you guys know a VST or Rack Extension doing that ?
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Loque
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Post 08 Aug 2022

Hum...not sure what Grain is exactly doing there. I guess you can get close when you use a sample as a wavetable or even better make a resynthesis of the "grain". Spectra can do resynthesis and is free. Just import a sample and chose your "sample" area to resynthesize.

There are other resynthesizer available...

There is a synth from Tracktion, which can probably do similar things, but did not tried. I am waiting for a good and payable offer:
https://www.tracktion.com/products/novum
Reason12, Win10

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Overtherainbow
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Post 08 Aug 2022


AnotherMathias
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Post 08 Aug 2022

I have to look back at the manual every so often to remind myself what's really going on with the different oscillator modes in Grain.
If I remember correctly (and there's a good chance I don't), spectral grains is less about granular, and more about additive resynthesis. I believe that Steinberg Padshop Pro (version 2) has a similar function, called spectral oscillator.

It's quite remarkable that Reason is hiding away such advanced functionality in a standard stock device.

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huggermugger
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Post 08 Aug 2022

If you're turned on by messing around with spectrals, don't overlook Europa. It isn't granular, of course, but a very powerful device. Europa has options for warping the harmonics, and it can also load user samples.
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Jac459
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Location: Singapore

Post 08 Aug 2022

huggermugger wrote:
08 Aug 2022
If you're turned on by messing around with spectrals, don't overlook Europa. It isn't granular, of course, but a very powerful device. Europa has options for warping the harmonics, and it can also load user samples.
Oh I will test that as soon as I can!
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Jac459
Posts: 481
Joined: 29 Mar 2022
Location: Singapore

Post 08 Aug 2022

Loque wrote:
08 Aug 2022
Hum...not sure what Grain is exactly doing there. I guess you can get close when you use a sample as a wavetable or even better make a resynthesis of the "grain". Spectra can do resynthesis and is free. Just import a sample and chose your "sample" area to resynthesize.

There are other resynthesizer available...

There is a synth from Tracktion, which can probably do similar things, but did not tried. I am waiting for a good and payable offer:
https://www.tracktion.com/products/novum
Thanks Loque, I will test and report. I have spectra but didn't know this feature...
Bitwig and RRP fanboy...

Jac459
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Post 08 Aug 2022

Thanks, I will test this one also 😉. Selig did participate to it as I understand.
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Jac459
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Joined: 29 Mar 2022
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Post 08 Aug 2022

AnotherMathias wrote:
08 Aug 2022
I have to look back at the manual every so often to remind myself what's really going on with the different oscillator modes in Grain.
If I remember correctly (and there's a good chance I don't), spectral grains is less about granular, and more about additive resynthesis. I believe that Steinberg Padshop Pro (version 2) has a similar function, called spectral oscillator.

It's quite remarkable that Reason is hiding away such advanced functionality in a standard stock device.
I think you are right, it had nothing to do with pure granular synthesis... Finally granular synthesis is not so funky... Just slicing and slicing... But this spectral stuff I need to learn more about it.
Bitwig and RRP fanboy...

Jac459
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Location: Singapore

Post 09 Aug 2022

Ok so I messed around quite a lot with Spectra and Europa. You can indeed take a sample and use one grain of this sample to have a spectral analysis. This is not exactly what grain is doing because grain is applying the logic on the full sample.

In Reason Studios web site: "Spectral Grains mode analyzes each grain’s frequency content and uses additive synthesis to recreate them with partial frequencies. "
I think the difference here is the "each". It isn't a wavetable like approach analyzing one sample grain and making it a webform.
Here the whole sample is played but with additive synthesis recreating it (all the fun is in grain you can really play around on the algorithm of the additive syntheses).

Proton is actually a discovery for me. It really is a power full grain manipulator, for what I see, at least as powerful than Pigments 3.5 grain engine if not more (knowing how Pigments is recognized, it is quite dope). But... No spectral analysis as I am looking for.

So some how, I am back to square one. For my understanding (and correct me if I am wrong), Proton is dope but not doing the same technique, Europa and Spectral are doing the same thing but in a unitary way (I tried to have an envelop scanning the sample but it quite doesn't give the same effect).
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Loque
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Post 09 Aug 2022

Jac459 wrote:
09 Aug 2022
Ok so I messed around quite a lot with Spectra and Europa. You can indeed take a sample and use one grain of this sample to have a spectral analysis. This is not exactly what grain is doing because grain is applying the logic on the full sample.

In Reason Studios web site: "Spectral Grains mode analyzes each grain’s frequency content and uses additive synthesis to recreate them with partial frequencies. "
I think the difference here is the "each". It isn't a wavetable like approach analyzing one sample grain and making it a webform.
Here the whole sample is played but with additive synthesis recreating it (all the fun is in grain you can really play around on the algorithm of the additive syntheses).

Proton is actually a discovery for me. It really is a power full grain manipulator, for what I see, at least as powerful than Pigments 3.5 grain engine if not more (knowing how Pigments is recognized, it is quite dope). But... No spectral analysis as I am looking for.

So some how, I am back to square one. For my understanding (and correct me if I am wrong), Proton is dope but not doing the same technique, Europa and Spectral are doing the same thing but in a unitary way (I tried to have an envelop scanning the sample but it quite doesn't give the same effect).
So, Grain is doing resynthesis and this is what Spectra is doing too.

Europa is interpreting samples as a wavetable AFAIK.

Proton does not have a resynthesis, but is really a powerfull grain sampler, just ugly IMO :lol:

The resynthesis in Grain is on-the-fly, which is really good and it also "looks around", because you can tune it completely or close to the resynthesized sound. This is something which the Tracktion Novum synth should do too AFAIK.

Since all of them work a bit different, you also get different results, which is good IMO. You can also just throw in a sample into any sampler and loop a very short period and tune it. Now you have your own wavetable synth, which can play anything, and also sounds different, since the quality of the sample playback and pitching can vary.

As i mentioned, there are other resynthesizers out there. Arturia has this technique in a few of there synths, but cannot remember which ones ATM.
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Jac459
Posts: 481
Joined: 29 Mar 2022
Location: Singapore

Post 09 Aug 2022

Loque wrote:
09 Aug 2022

So, Grain is doing resynthesis and this is what Spectra is doing too.

Europa is interpreting samples as a wavetable AFAIK.

Proton does not have a resynthesis, but is really a powerfull grain sampler, just ugly IMO :lol:

The resynthesis in Grain is on-the-fly, which is really good and it also "looks around", because you can tune it completely or close to the resynthesized sound. This is something which the Tracktion Novum synth should do too AFAIK.

Since all of them work a bit different, you also get different results, which is good IMO. You can also just throw in a sample into any sampler and loop a very short period and tune it. Now you have your own wavetable synth, which can play anything, and also sounds different, since the quality of the sample playback and pitching can vary.

As i mentioned, there are other resynthesizers out there. Arturia has this technique in a few of there synths, but cannot remember which ones ATM.
Thanks Loque for all these infos.
Yes I think Novum must be the nearer to grain, it is scratching my GAS since a while...
Bitwig and RRP fanboy...

Popey
Posts: 1496
Joined: 04 Jul 2018

Post 09 Aug 2022

Jac459 wrote:
09 Aug 2022
Loque wrote:
09 Aug 2022

So, Grain is doing resynthesis and this is what Spectra is doing too.

Europa is interpreting samples as a wavetable AFAIK.

Proton does not have a resynthesis, but is really a powerfull grain sampler, just ugly IMO :lol:

The resynthesis in Grain is on-the-fly, which is really good and it also "looks around", because you can tune it completely or close to the resynthesized sound. This is something which the Tracktion Novum synth should do too AFAIK.

Since all of them work a bit different, you also get different results, which is good IMO. You can also just throw in a sample into any sampler and loop a very short period and tune it. Now you have your own wavetable synth, which can play anything, and also sounds different, since the quality of the sample playback and pitching can vary.

As i mentioned, there are other resynthesizers out there. Arturia has this technique in a few of there synths, but cannot remember which ones ATM.
Thanks Loque for all these infos.
Yes I think Novum must be the nearer to grain, it is scratching my GAS since a while...
I have only scratched the surface with novum due to holidays etc but am mightily impressed so far. Sorry if this initiates more gas but it has a very generous 90 day trial with no noise bursts etc so worth trying it out.

Jac459
Posts: 481
Joined: 29 Mar 2022
Location: Singapore

Post 09 Aug 2022

Popey wrote:
09 Aug 2022
Jac459 wrote:
09 Aug 2022


Thanks Loque for all these infos.
Yes I think Novum must be the nearer to grain, it is scratching my GAS since a while...
I have only scratched the surface with novum due to holidays etc but am mightily impressed so far. Sorry if this initiates more gas but it has a very generous 90 day trial with no noise bursts etc so worth trying it out.
HAAAAAAAA

You are indeed generating a GAS hahaha.

No, I will try to resist. It is 200 euros now so maybe worth waiting a bit for a discount, I bought pigments last week...
Bitwig and RRP fanboy...

Jac459
Posts: 481
Joined: 29 Mar 2022
Location: Singapore

Post 09 Aug 2022

By the way Popey, if you mind me ask, what are the constraints of Novum being on Reaktor ? I never used this platform. Does it mean that you need to install a lot of things before installing novum ?
Bitwig and RRP fanboy...

Popey
Posts: 1496
Joined: 04 Jul 2018

Post 09 Aug 2022

Jac459 wrote:
09 Aug 2022
Popey wrote:
09 Aug 2022


I have only scratched the surface with novum due to holidays etc but am mightily impressed so far. Sorry if this initiates more gas but it has a very generous 90 day trial with no noise bursts etc so worth trying it out.
HAAAAAAAA

You are indeed generating a GAS hahaha.

No, I will try to resist. It is 200 euros now so maybe worth waiting a bit for a discount, I bought pigments last week...
Ha ha yeah the 90 day trial will still be there after getting accustomed to pigments. I got it on a deal for about £70 which I think is worth it.

Popey
Posts: 1496
Joined: 04 Jul 2018

Post 09 Aug 2022

Jac459 wrote:
09 Aug 2022
By the way Popey, if you mind me ask, what are the constraints of Novum being on Reaktor ? I never used this platform. Does it mean that you need to install a lot of things before installing novum ?
Hi novum is just a vst you download (although it could just be vst3 so worth checking)

Jac459
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Joined: 29 Mar 2022
Location: Singapore

Post 09 Aug 2022

Hello, I am Jac and I am a Gas-holic...

Ok Popey, I just bought it...
Found a pseudo discount from 200 to 150 dolls... and couldn't resist...


This Novum is pure fire... One guy in the forum summarized it quite well:

"I'm not buything this because I need another granular synth like I need a hole in the head. I have pigments which covers granular in addition to other things. At some point you have have to face that when there's so much overlap it's not about buying a new tool, and just about collecting plugins."

--Listens to the demo anyway

"Oh shit"
Bitwig and RRP fanboy...

Jac459
Posts: 481
Joined: 29 Mar 2022
Location: Singapore

Post 09 Aug 2022

I use Bitwig anyway so VST3 is fine...
Bitwig and RRP fanboy...

Popey
Posts: 1496
Joined: 04 Jul 2018

Post 09 Aug 2022

Jac459 wrote:
09 Aug 2022
Hello, I am Jac and I am a Gas-holic...

Ok Popey, I just bought it...
Found a pseudo discount from 200 to 150 dolls... and couldn't resist...


This Novum is pure fire... One guy in the forum summarized it quite well:

"I'm not buything this because I need another granular synth like I need a hole in the head. I have pigments which covers granular in addition to other things. At some point you have have to face that when there's so much overlap it's not about buying a new tool, and just about collecting plugins."

--Listens to the demo anyway

"Oh shit"
We have all been there 😂

There are a few good tutorials on Yt to learn a bit about locking layers etc but it is quite a straight forward to use synth. I am a big fan of it already and like I said before have only scratched the surface. Really enjoy chucking samples at it though and messing with the layers. (try putting a full drum loop in - interesting results).

What with this and pigments you are going to have a lot of fun.

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