Reason Financials 2021

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avasopht
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Post 06 Aug 2022

kitekrazy wrote:
06 Aug 2022
Only Live's Suite upgrade is higher and also Samplitude upgrade but they usually have 2 extra products thrown in.
Casual users probably don't for over $199 for the upgrade. I'm not.

I wonder how many of the larger developers are also not making money with the way the world economy is. I wonder if the same is for instrument manufacturers. Guitar Center and Sam Ash aren't what they use to be.
Many music stores shut down.

There's an entire street by Tottenham Court Road where pretty much every music store but one or two shut down due to covid.
---

spencer335
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Post 06 Aug 2022

I'm not sure how much of this is unexpected in year 1 of a pivot to a subscription model. Take 10K people that would have paid $129 every other year for an upgrade and 10K new users buying a new license at $299 and start charging them $10 or $20 per month instead, it takes a few months or even over a year for RS (and the customer!) to break even (noting R+ did launch in Jan or Feb 2021, but certainly not everyone signed up right away).

Obviously it would look better for Reason if the subscription offer brought on so many users that they did break even right away, but it doesn't have to if they are playing a sufficiently long game (and keep their paying subs engaged).

Yonatan
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Post 06 Aug 2022

Number of bugs decrease in the winter.

Honestly I have not experienced any major issues but have not used it too deeply since R12 and not depending on ut for job or live using yet.

Seems the whole HD transformation was a giant task in Reason. I mean, many DAWs have so flat look and not the same complexity as Reason look-wise. I am quite optimistic they will bring the workstation to new heights.

KGB
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Post 06 Aug 2022

EnochLight wrote:
05 Aug 2022

Even if VST support and M1 support come in Reason 13, that's not going to sell a bunch of new licenses or subs - which begs the question: what exactly do YOU think would sell more Reason? Personally, I'm going with core-DAW improvements.
I agree 100%. VST3, M1 and DAW improvements will definitely increase sales numbers. R+ subscription that features all REs and also the loops etc would be another boost IMO. I’m not concerned bc I know RS knows they need to improve the DAW.

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Re8et
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Post 06 Aug 2022

KGB wrote:
06 Aug 2022
EnochLight wrote:
05 Aug 2022

Even if VST support and M1 support come in Reason 13, that's not going to sell a bunch of new licenses or subs - which begs the question: what exactly do YOU think would sell more Reason? Personally, I'm going with core-DAW improvements.
I agree 100%. VST3, M1 and DAW improvements will definitely increase sales numbers. R+ subscription that features all REs and also the loops etc would be another boost IMO. I’m not concerned bc I know RS knows they need to improve the DAW.
When they launched the RRP program, they moved the whole - make a better DAW - argument, secondary.
MAC users got Garage Band, an awesome DAW, right off the bat; with LOGIC just a couple hundreds away.

Right now... RRP do not work on Garage Band on M1 MAC, except vanilla (no RE).

The smartest move is to make base Reason free for all.
Man I know producers on Reason 5 cracked in 2022...
If they got Reason 12 HD Free, they might get an insight on what is possible in the RE realm...

A Button can do magic...

makke
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Joined: 06 May 2017

Post 07 Aug 2022

I don't wonder this at all. You know what happens when you are arrogant and too greedy. Reason and the RE's are so f***** expensive. They even increased the prices while ago. Synths used to be 99€, now they are, what, 129€? You can get so many good synths and FX's in 20-50€. Or even free. Market is over saturated anyway. Over 100€ plugins days are just over in these days. To justifiy over 100€ pricetag, you really, really need to have something special in these days.

And the biggest thing to do wrong is stop listening users and what they want. Core DAW imrovements have been ignored for years. I wanted to change my daw to Reason, but quickly I learned my lesson and noticed that I simply cannot trust this company at all. They just keep ignoring people and icrease prices. No wonder that things go south.

The sequencer is so outdated that I wonder how anyone can eve use it. Everything is super small, basic functions are missing. There is no even midi chase. Timestrech is sounding nice, but useability is so bad. It's nothing like Live has. In generally, Reason sequencer it is just nightmare to use. Maybe the old users are so use to it, but as a new user, no way. So, so outdated. Like those 640x graphics were.

They really need to start change their attitude and start to listen their userbase. First thing is to add core features to Reason. But you know this company and nothing like this won't happen..

FL Studio use to be same. Gol was coding and he had arrogant attitude. Refuse to add FR's. Then IL "bought him off", and now what IL is only doing, is add users FR's very fast and people are more than happy. Updates are coming out frequently and they have always something new and nice. Small things can change the flow and you ship destination, but one thing is sure, Reason will not never learn it. Sadly.

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selig
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Post 07 Aug 2022

makke wrote:
07 Aug 2022
They really need to start change their attitude and start to listen their userbase. First thing is to add core features to Reason. But you know this company and nothing like this won't happen..
You mean core features like audio tracks, MIDI out, VST support, high rez graphics, etc?
The problem with this argument is that they HAVE been adding core features, and at about the same pace they have added core features over the years since the beginning. If you know Reason you know it’s always been slow to address core features, but you also know that they HAVE been adding them.
For me this has always been the main complaint. That, and the fact that when they DO add core features they often times feel like they are 80% of what is needed.
AND - all of the core features have been in response to their user base IMO - they certainly had no intention of adding VSTs on their own, and probably was similar for other core features added over the years.
So if anyone has come on board hoping for the pace to change, I’ll say what I’ve been saying for many years now: “don’t hold your breath’.

What I don’t get is that none of this should come as a surprise to anyone. If you’re on the “Reason train” you know how fast it travels, and you pretty much know the level of service and the destination too. All aboard?
Selig Audio, LLC

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avasopht
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Post 07 Aug 2022

But why Reason 12?

That's the real question.

There are many candidates:
1. Impact of COVID, rising gas and general cost of living crisis.
2. Too much time in that mindfulness app made you realize you didn't need to impulse buy your next upgrade.
3. Heard about bugs (highly doubtful ... we can see how many times each thread has been viewed ;) )
4. Reason+ (could easily have delayed upgrades if people are able to subscribe for the odd month during the year when they have time off or something, ... or just not upgrading while enjoying the cheap extended trials, etc).
5. Not exciting enough for them.
6. R9.5 is enough for those who just wanted VST (so they've not bothered to upgrade)
7. R11 is enough for those who just wanted to use Reason in another DAW (now they have no reason to upgrade as they have everything they could possibly want already)
8. Price hike (plus they don't get the scoop on the discounts they could still get if they're not on the forum)
9. Another event brought them towards another DAW or just allowed them to replace Reason more easily (Presonus Sphere, NI Play, Presonus Atom controller, Bitwig Grid, etc.)

It's impossible for us to know, and we'll always look at this through our own biased lens.

It will always be because "they didn't do the things I felt were important".
---

PhillipOrdonez
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Location: Norway

Post 07 Aug 2022

Hate to be that guy, but the current inflation and war uncertainty most definitely didn't have anything to do with 2021 numbers... COVID was actually, in financial terms, a positive thing for things like music software...
The latest release:

Yonatan
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Joined: 18 Jan 2015

Post 07 Aug 2022

Agree on the price jump, I think it is so high that during sales or promotions, the priced often land on a level where I think would be a proper normal starting price. So then I often end up waiting if not crucial need.

Agree on Selig mention of Reason always been a bit of a slow train. But a very stable one.
Now it has been a bit bumpy rails and further delays while still slow.

And, the wanted betterments have somehow gotten delayed as there is always some new launch that seem to take much of the focus (Allihoopa, Rack Plugin, Reason+ and soundpacks).
Box of cool devices, is what is the main focus now.
And less on the DAW functions. But I am sure the message have came across and we will see both new devices and some new core features later.
At the moment VST3 and M1 compatibility seem take up a lot of extra work.

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fullforce
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Post 07 Aug 2022

That's what you get for sticking your middle finger up to your customers and refuse to upgrade your totally backward outdated sequencer.
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit.

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Pepin
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Post 07 Aug 2022

selig wrote:
07 Aug 2022
If you’re on the “Reason train” you know how fast it travels, and you pretty much know the level of service and the destination too. All aboard?
That destination has been less stable lately (seismic activity?), which will make some riders question whether it's still worth the slow commute. :puf_smile:

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Billy+
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Post 07 Aug 2022

I don't think that RS would be worried about this decline in revenue.

I'm still running R11 suite and still not buying RE's or upgrades until the upgrade has something worth paying for.

It's got nothing to do with the economy or price rise and everything to do with the current rollout, I'm not interested in buying into a plan I would rather wait until the features are available it's a simple as that for me.

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selig
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Post 07 Aug 2022

Pepin wrote:
07 Aug 2022
selig wrote:
07 Aug 2022
If you’re on the “Reason train” you know how fast it travels, and you pretty much know the level of service and the destination too. All aboard?
That destination has been less stable lately (seismic activity?), which will make some riders question whether it's still worth the slow commute. :puf_smile:
That’s perfect - the travel experience used to be slow but steady and always ran on time. But now the ride is bumpy and some trains are running late. ;)
Selig Audio, LLC

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crimsonwarlock
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Post 07 Aug 2022

Pepin wrote:
07 Aug 2022
... which will make some riders question whether it's still worth the slow commute. :puf_smile:
On a slow commute, I tend to watch the scenery. So, that is what I've been doing since running R12. There were some dark tunnels on the trip, but overall, I like the view :puf_bigsmile:

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Re8et
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Post 07 Aug 2022

avasopht wrote:
07 Aug 2022
But why Reason 12?

That's the real question.

There are many candidates:

3. Heard about bugs (highly doubtful ... we can see how many times each thread has been viewed ;) )
the 3rd... is somehow near for me, but it's missing something important.

If they heard, it's on YT. If they tried it, probably they also posted something on YT.
Reality is that R12's underperforming, and now needs a good GPU... with at least 8gb of virtual RAM....
Thats the impression, mind it!
Tons of YT-ers opinions shifted overnight when R12 came out.
Some where still positive about R+ and the free sound packs.
The vast majority lost confidence when their workflow has been broken in some way or another.

If I got a problem with RRP on Garage Band, I post a thread about it, for discussing possible solutions.
If I got a problem with HD high RAM usage, I post a thread and try to discuss possible solutions.
My YT channel has 50 subs... I'm no good in any way at building up a good video channel...
I try, but I'm a drop in the ocean....
I personally upgraded to RS12 even if I knew about the HD thing...
and then got Ekksperimental sounds FX bundles later this year for 300+ ...
They sounds stunning, I made a couple of videos, as did Random Noise. Totally diff. view but thats ok.
No Bugs talks. Just music.
I mean Benedict got some YT vids with less views than some of mine... YT is really a bug in itself...


YTbers combined are the sunflower paper. They feel it's still beta. They won't post threads here.
I can only imagine if all YT combined would post threads here wed would be overwhelmed by
negativity.
We know people like Mattias are damn precious people that listen to us, that cares about
Reason. Standard YT don't even know about these guys behind the curtains...
They don't care... We do!!

Maybe RS should shift the headquarter to Berlin, and try to capture some NI devs on the way???
People could get conforted if they knew about what the team is doing, how is he working...
Ppl like to dream, and this is especially true in times like this (which covers yours other 9 points).

:thumbs_up:

Shadoww
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Post 07 Aug 2022

When is vst3 support coming? They said it was in r12 but still not here….and I feel cheated as an upgrader, It’s shady moves like this that put customers off. I now don’t buy any of their shop stuff - I only buy vst as a protest, I got Scaler 2 instead of Chord thing, I got autotune efx instead of BBV thing, in fact I would never buy from their shop again simply cos they moved it to promote that stupid reason+, All the weird decisions they made as a company spooked me and put me off as a customer so I’m not surprised their profits are down the dumper

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avasopht
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Post 07 Aug 2022

Shadoww wrote:
07 Aug 2022
When is vst3 support coming? They said it was in r12 but still not here….and I feel cheated as an upgrader, It’s shady moves like this that put customers off.
It's not a shady move.

They had issues they had to address following a MASSIVE upgrade (GPU accelerated GUI so that our bitmap heavy REs could render on high-dpi screens). This happens in software.

It happened to Adobe.

It happened to Nintendo.

It happened to RareWare.

It happened to Microsoft.

It happened to Apple.
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Jac459
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Post 07 Aug 2022

Re8et wrote:
06 Aug 2022

When they launched the RRP program, they moved the whole - make a better DAW - argument, secondary.
I may be biased because I switched to Bitwig not too long ago but I quite agree here even if it is certainly sad.
The feeling of being a second class citizen when being on Reason was accentuated when I discovered the basic feature of bitwig. For example automatically all the vst controls are available directly without a need to open the vst, and you can bookmark this control directly and super easily. So my fear of spending my time switching Windows with vst was gone. Same for hardware controllers, after spending nights editing remote files, suddenly everything was plug and play...

On the other hand, my feeling is opposite when using the RRP. It is like being in a serious DAW but keeping 80%of the fun of reason, with all the awesomely awesome instruments, effects, tricks with CV available. It is like being a 1st class citizen but with the super powers of reason.

So I do understand the switch to RRP where I think they keep a large part of the soul of their products while offering a super great experience.

So either they do have the plans to comeback in the race but it seems a daunting work. Either maybe RRP is a logical choice....

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avasopht
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Post 07 Aug 2022

Jac459 wrote:
07 Aug 2022
Re8et wrote:
06 Aug 2022

When they launched the RRP program, they moved the whole - make a better DAW - argument, secondary.
I may be biased because I switched to Bitwig not too long ago but I quite agree here even if it is certainly sad.
The feeling of being a second class citizen when being on Reason was accentuated when I discovered the basic feature of bitwig. For example automatically all the vst controls are available directly without a need to open the vst, and you can bookmark this control directly and super easily. So my fear of spending my time switching Windows with vst was gone. Same for hardware controllers, after spending nights editing remote files, suddenly everything was plug and play...

On the other hand, my feeling is opposite when using the RRP. It is like being in a serious DAW but keeping 80%of the fun of reason, with all the awesomely awesome instruments, effects, tricks with CV available. It is like being a 1st class citizen but with the super powers of reason.

So I do understand the switch to RRP where I think they keep a large part of the soul of their products while offering a super great experience.

So either they do have the plans to comeback in the race but it seems a daunting work. Either maybe RRP is a logical choice....
But how exactly did RRP change any of this within Reason? They didn't subtract DAW features to implement RRP, right? So how could RRP make anything in Reason standalone a second-class citizen if the EXACT same features weren't second-class citizens???
---

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QVprod
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Post 08 Aug 2022

avasopht wrote:
07 Aug 2022
Jac459 wrote:
07 Aug 2022

I may be biased because I switched to Bitwig not too long ago but I quite agree here even if it is certainly sad.
The feeling of being a second class citizen when being on Reason was accentuated when I discovered the basic feature of bitwig. For example automatically all the vst controls are available directly without a need to open the vst, and you can bookmark this control directly and super easily. So my fear of spending my time switching Windows with vst was gone. Same for hardware controllers, after spending nights editing remote files, suddenly everything was plug and play...

On the other hand, my feeling is opposite when using the RRP. It is like being in a serious DAW but keeping 80%of the fun of reason, with all the awesomely awesome instruments, effects, tricks with CV available. It is like being a 1st class citizen but with the super powers of reason.

So I do understand the switch to RRP where I think they keep a large part of the soul of their products while offering a super great experience.

So either they do have the plans to comeback in the race but it seems a daunting work. Either maybe RRP is a logical choice....
But how exactly did RRP change any of this within Reason? They didn't subtract DAW features to implement RRP, right? So how could RRP make anything in Reason standalone a second-class citizen if the EXACT same features weren't second-class citizens???
I had the same quandary, but there is a common mindset here that the Rack is separated from the DAW although it’s it’s pretty much 80-90% of the program.

I guess they don’t like that RS’ solution to the “horrible” sequencer was freedom to use the sequencer of your choice.

I suppose that could cause a sales loss of the loyal Reason only folks. As you mentioned, I doubt those who bought R11 just for the plug-in upgraded to 12 unless they just really wanted Mimic.

Jac459
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Joined: 29 Mar 2022
Location: Singapore

Post 08 Aug 2022

avasopht wrote:
07 Aug 2022

But how exactly did RRP change any of this within Reason? They didn't subtract DAW features to implement RRP, right? So how could RRP make anything in Reason standalone a second-class citizen if the EXACT same features weren't second-class citizens???
You are right to ask actually, my postwas not very clear on that aspect.

What I see by comparing reason to the others is that while the DAW features are getting more and more outdated, the synths, effects and players feature are top notch. Since moving to bitwig I purchased Serum, Pigments, vital and I am not that impressed to-be honest. The offer of reason with things like Kong, Dr rex, grain, Europa, makes 8t very relevant.

So what I meant is that when you go to RRP, you don't use the weakness of reason anymore and can concentrate happily on his strengths...
Hope it clarifies...

Jac459
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Location: Singapore

Post 08 Aug 2022

QVprod wrote:
08 Aug 2022
I had the same quandary, but there is a common mindset here that the Rack is separated from the DAW although it’s it’s pretty much 80-90% of the program.

I guess they don’t like that RS’ solution to the “horrible” sequencer was freedom to use the sequencer of your choice.

I suppose that could cause a sales loss of the loyal Reason only folks. As you mentioned, I doubt those who bought R11 just for the plug-in upgraded to 12 unless they just really wanted Mimic.
Yeah haha, pretty much what I was trying to say...

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alipi
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Post 08 Aug 2022

The report mentions revenue was down 43% from $10.7M to $6.1M and that 21% of the previous years' revenue has already been converted to subscriptions. They mention the revenue drop is expected during a transition period and that focus is to move more revenue to subscriptions. They took in an extra $1M capital from shareholders and signed a $4.1M three year loan at market rate (replacing previous loans). From what I can see the total expenses was pretty much the same as 2020 at ~$8M. The average number of employees was up from 41 to 44. They also mention the new R12 was received well by the market (not sure if I fully agree) giving customers the choice of a traditional upgrade license or subscription.

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chimp_spanner
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Post 08 Aug 2022

I've never been one for analysing Props/RS's business dealings. I can only assume, as we've been through these cycles of doom/gloom and optimism and the doors are still open, that they have a plan and know what they're doing. Clearly others have looked into this more deeply than I have. Alipi's assessment sounds like there's not so much cause for concern as the raw numbers would suggest.

I will just say what I always say, which is that the DAW has *huge* potential. But whether by accident or design, the message is not getting out there that it even has one. I think I mentioned a little while ago that I was at an electronic music festival. Everyone and their mother there is a producer. I didn't speak to a single one who knew Reason could even load VST plugins, let alone do full audio. A handful were aware of it as a plugin.

Similarly when it comes to my own music circles and the producers I talk with (ranging from bedroom enthusiasts to those blue-tick types with insane followings) the reaction when they see I work in reason is always surprise. It's never 'oh yeah I know a few people that use that'. I am the one guy they know who does lol

I think this naturally leads on to the question of whether this even has much of an impact on their financials, and whether or not RS should devote many (or any) resources to competing with DAWs that already have huge market share. I mean you won't find a single producer alive who doesn't know of or use FL, Live, Cubase, Logic, or even Reaper. I'd say Studio One has gradually secured itself a place among them too. It might be that the reason we aren't getting much development on that front is that they've done the maths and it simply doesn't make sense to create a more powerful DAW if everyone's just gonna stay exactly where they are.

But then hey I was on Cubase literally forever. And Reason managed to steal me away just fine before it even had VST! So...who knows!

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