IS REASON 12 THE LAST PERPETUAL VERSION

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avasopht
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Post 21 Jun 2022

PREMATURE SPECULATION

If consumers don't like subscriptions, the MARKET will provide a suppler who produces perpetual licenses.

This will always balance itself out (unless there is a clear monopoly).

Also, subscriptions won't suit all publishers. Put simply, how could "Super Music Producer X" compete with ProTools and $50,000 worth of plugins if they're roughly the same price?

Maybe YOU could be forced to continue subscribing. But if you don't think you can, why would you think everyone else will?
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orthodox
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Post 21 Jun 2022

avasopht wrote:
21 Jun 2022
If consumers don't like subscriptions, the MARKET will provide a suppler who produces perpetual licenses.

This will always balance itself out (unless there is a clear monopoly).
Not only monopoly. Market is impotent when faced with cultural grounds or gets into a potential well.

For example, a hypothetical experiment:
Four monkeys are locked in a cage. The floor is metal and a shocking charge can be applied to it. There is a banana hanging on the ceiling in the middle of the cage. But as soon as some monkey starts jumping to get it, all the four get an electric shock. So after a while they give up trying. Then one monkey gets replaced with a new one. It is not yet aware of the rules and starts jumping for the banana, but the other three beat it to make it stop. Then all the four get replaced one by one.
Now we have four monkeys in the cage, a banana on the ceiling, and nobody tries to get it, despite that no one has ever experienced an electric shock.

Or this problem that I heard in economics classes:
There are a few airlines performing flights from A to B. All the companies have equal prices. The ticket from A to B costs $100, but the round-trip ticket from A to B and back to A costs $90.
How could that happen?
Answer:
Once upon a time there was a small airline based in A, which only made round-trip flights A-B-A. It started going broke and decided to lower their ticket prices to $90. All the competing airlines did the same. That small company eventually went bankrupt and left the market. Now neither company can raise the A-B-A price back, because it is competing with the others.

Jac459
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Post 21 Jun 2022

Propellerhands wrote:
21 Jun 2022
... So we can agree to disagree, I am not here to prove my point or convince but to state my opinion, that's all....
Well I think we can also agree that we agree on many many points 😊😊.

And thanks for sharing your opinion and your reasoning, this is the whole point of the forum 👍👍

WOO
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Post 22 Jun 2022

I like, many here will never buy into the subscription model. So if it is the last of the perpetuals, I went ahead and bought 12 just in case. I figured that by owning 12 that it will make the product usable well into the future, what with the hi-res graphics, mimic but more importantly for future devices and patches that use combinator 2.0. And hey the price was right. So here's to hoping that we haven't seen the last of the perpetuals.
"A man is like a rabbit, you catch him by the ears" La Rochefoucauld

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alipi
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Post 22 Jun 2022

Going by last year's date their annual financial report should be available in the coming days which will give an overall indication of how 2021 went and where they are going.

In the previous report for 2020 (released a year ago) they mentioned revenue grew 15% to ~$10.7M with ~$0.5M in profit after taxes. For 2021 they expected some costs to launch Reason+ reducing revenue and profit. They did mention that the old business model would continue. They had ~$1M cash, ~$4M bank loan (~$1M option) and ~40 employees.

So it will be interesting to compare one year later with R12 and Reason+...

MuttReason
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Post 22 Jun 2022

alipi wrote:
22 Jun 2022
Going by last year's date their annual financial report should be available in the coming days which will give an overall indication of how 2021 went and where they are going.

In the previous report for 2020 (released a year ago) they mentioned revenue grew 15% to ~$10.7M with ~$0.5M in profit after taxes. For 2021 they expected some costs to launch Reason+ reducing revenue and profit. They did mention that the old business model would continue. They had ~$1M cash, ~$4M bank loan (~$1M option) and ~40 employees.

So it will be interesting to compare one year later with R12 and Reason+...
Those are pretty interesting numbers. Worth remembering when people talk about RS as if it were a big corporation. This is a really small business that generates a tiny amount of cash ($1m cash at hand wouldn’t support the payroll for long if something went wrong) from the work of a really small employee base. This is no Roland or Yamaha.

Jac459
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Post 22 Jun 2022

MuttReason wrote:
22 Jun 2022
alipi wrote:
22 Jun 2022
Going by last year's date their annual financial report should be available in the coming days which will give an overall indication of how 2021 went and where they are going.

In the previous report for 2020 (released a year ago) they mentioned revenue grew 15% to ~$10.7M with ~$0.5M in profit after taxes. For 2021 they expected some costs to launch Reason+ reducing revenue and profit. They did mention that the old business model would continue. They had ~$1M cash, ~$4M bank loan (~$1M option) and ~40 employees.

So it will be interesting to compare one year later with R12 and Reason+...
Those are pretty interesting numbers. Worth remembering when people talk about RS as if it were a big corporation. This is a really small business that generates a tiny amount of cash ($1m cash at hand wouldn’t support the payroll for long if something went wrong) from the work of a really small employee base. This is no Roland or Yamaha.
Well as an IT manager working on a big bank, I am quite amazed on what they do with 40 staffs. One of my project has 110 devs and I am affraid that what we do is less funky...

Jac459
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Post 22 Jun 2022

Funilly enough, back in 2001 I applied for a job in Propellerheads and they never answered to me... 😅.
Because of them I ended up on payment systems lol...

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motuscott
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Post 22 Jun 2022

WHERE IS REASON PONY?
The Now Sound of MIDI Thru 🧂

jlgrimes
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Post 22 Jun 2022

WOO wrote:
19 Jun 2022
I've been thinking about the massive price drop of reason 12, and just weeks after may madness. The speculation is that, perhaps they need money. Well, I recall when they discounted reason suite a while back, then shortly afterward, they announced that they were discontinuing suite. So I'm thinking and I hope I'm wrong, that they may announce very soon that their discontinuing the sale of perpetual licenses with 12 being the last. I'm aware of what the ceo promised about perpetual licenses but things
can change quickly and they are majority owned by verdane so there's that. So what do you folks out there think.
I doubt Reason will adopt a subscription only method.


Most DAWs offer perpetual versions and subscriptions as an option. Reason will continue this path.


What Reason will do is do whatever they can to push more users into subscriptions which means either two things, lower the price of the subscription service, or raise the price of the perpetual version. That said I think they will be pretty cautious raising the perpetual version price in the future as if it gets to a certain point I think alot of users would abandon Reason completely.

I think offering both versions though will make Reason more money as both services will satisfy more users needs and cater to differing markets as there are some users who don't mind paying the extra money for a perpetual version especially as they have them a version they can keep using forever, and some will continue to buy perpetual version and only upgrading when they find a version they like. While others might only use Reason for temporary occasions and a subscription might make more sense to them, paying for a few months here and there and renewing their subscription when needed or catching a great subscription deal.

Who is to say Reason might find a new ways like allowing the subscription service to give you credits to permanently buy RE's or making a completely free Reason baseline version.

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QVprod
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Post 22 Jun 2022

jlgrimes wrote:
22 Jun 2022
WOO wrote:
19 Jun 2022
I've been thinking about the massive price drop of reason 12, and just weeks after may madness. The speculation is that, perhaps they need money. Well, I recall when they discounted reason suite a while back, then shortly afterward, they announced that they were discontinuing suite. So I'm thinking and I hope I'm wrong, that they may announce very soon that their discontinuing the sale of perpetual licenses with 12 being the last. I'm aware of what the ceo promised about perpetual licenses but things
can change quickly and they are majority owned by verdane so there's that. So what do you folks out there think.
I doubt Reason will adopt a subscription only method.


Most DAWs offer perpetual versions and subscriptions as an option. Reason will continue this path.


What Reason will do is do whatever they can to push more users into subscriptions which means either two things, lower the price of the subscription service, or raise the price of the perpetual version.
And just think! This already happened. I'm more curious why there fear of doom for literally near everything RS does....

DJMaytag
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Location: Madison, WI

Post 22 Jun 2022

Seeing as how I’m currently paying $10/mo for BV*X and did so for Algoritm plus at least one other RS device, it’s not that far of a jump to start paying $20/mo. If RS starts dropped new devices on a fairly regular basis (every 9-10 months) such that I’m constantly paying that $10/mo, then it might actually make sense to subscribe to Reason+. Over the course of two years, $100 to 200 in devices plus $199 for the next version upgrade… it’s pans out to be worth the $20/mo.

OTOH, getting everything under the sun that R+ offer doesn’t really appeal to me that much. I don’t need packs and the other devices from RS like BeatMap, Layers, Friktion, etc. If the new RS devices aren’t all that interesting, the perpetual is more attractive.

Overall, if RS sees that about half of their customer base wants perpetual licenses and half is fine with subscription, it would be an absolutely stupid business decision for them to shut out half of their sales potential. Until R+ makes up over 66% of their income stream/user base, there will be NO changes to both options existing.

DJMaytag
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Location: Madison, WI

Post 22 Jun 2022

QVprod wrote:
22 Jun 2022
And just think! This already happened. I'm more curious why there fear of doom for literally near everything RS does....
Well, we live in a world full of gloom and doom about what some unseen force is going to do to us (or is conspiring to do to us), so… if you see that all over the place, you expect to see it everywhere.

Jac459
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Post 22 Jun 2022

DJMaytag wrote:
22 Jun 2022
Well, we live in a world full of gloom and doom about what some unseen force is going to do to us (or is conspiring to do to us), so… if you see that all over the place, you expect to see it everywhere.
I will take a day off to meditate on this...

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Loque
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Post 22 Jun 2022

DJMaytag wrote:
22 Jun 2022
QVprod wrote:
22 Jun 2022
And just think! This already happened. I'm more curious why there fear of doom for literally near everything RS does....
Well, we live in a world full of gloom and doom about what some unseen force is going to do to us (or is conspiring to do to us), so… if you see that all over the place, you expect to see it everywhere.
Definition of paranoia.
Reason12, Win10

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bxbrkrz
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Post 22 Jun 2022

Paranoia. Definition.
A worldwide reaction from RS' next annual financial report
757365206c6f67696320746f207365656b20616e73776572732075736520726561736f6e20746f2066696e6420776973646f6d

dakta
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Joined: 30 Aug 2021

Post 22 Jun 2022

"I was ok with Reason 4.0.1 for almost 10 years, I will be ok with Reason 12 for 10 more years even more."

This summed it up for me - this is a very useful but also a very odd forum for whom many seems to extract more from trying to state how bad the software is or how bad financially the company is. Isn't it public now btw, isn't there a way to check?

The game has a albeit floating limit, once you can do everything you want to do with reason all you can really do in a bulk sense is throw plugins at it, this won't necessarily be a sad day.

I don't like subscription models for obvious reasons but it does actually have measurable benefits :

- it does actually provide the best long term chances towards making further development viable (bit of a mutual benefit there ill admit) as one off purchases make flash in the pan companies, subscription makes it sustainable
- its given me rack extensions that I turned out to rather like that I probably wouldn't have looked at twice in the reason store if i'd to buy seperately, some i didn't like but some I really did
- I'm of the low disposable income type so whilst the long term cost is up there its easy to justify a monthly small expense in terms of 'its just a few cups of coffee in an exchange for limitless access to all of this'. It's also non committal so if you wanted to use it in fits and starts instead of an outlay that would be practically unbearable you can (helpful for the younger ones too). The same thing framed differently is you can have the full blown reason package on a project or to a budget basis if you want it for 3 months to get some work done but are not likely to go in for the long haul or until theres something else in the pipeline

The worlds burning down we're going to have re-evaluate value

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avasopht
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Post 22 Jun 2022

Let's be real. There's less need for new features.

We've passed the critical threshold of expressiveness.

We've got realistic instruments. Powerful synths. The ability to create just about any sound we could imagine. And it can all be done on a used machine for about $100 (which has more power than all the workstation synths of the 00s that are still relevant today).

The name of the game right now is cornering a market.

Native Instruments makes a hell of a lot more money than Reason Studios and Ableton because they've cornered the market for making hot sounds.

Yamaha and Roland make even more than them because they sell ... ... wait for it ... ... standalone hardware you buy once and keep for decades. They can afford to squeeze sounds into a 32 MB ROM that sample libraries and hybrid synths running on PCs could barely match with 1 GB sound banks (although I think there are much better sub 1 GB virtual instruments that can match those late 90s/early 00s workstations).

Oh yeah ... my point ...

Right ... so, ... ... ... if DAWs only received bugfixes would it be a big deal? I don't think it would.
dakta wrote:
22 Jun 2022
"I was ok with Reason 4.0.1 for almost 10 years, I will be ok with Reason 12 for 10 more years even more."

This summed it up for me - this is a very useful but also a very odd forum for whom many seems to extract more from trying to state how bad the software is or how bad financially the company is. Isn't it public now btw, isn't there a way to check?

The game has a albeit floating limit, once you can do everything you want to do with reason all you can really do in a bulk sense is throw plugins at it, this won't necessarily be a sad day.
Pretty much what I was getting at, and then I saw you'd posted this as I was about to submit.
---

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motuscott
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Post 22 Jun 2022

REASON PONY WANTS A MARTINI AND CIGGY
The Now Sound of MIDI Thru 🧂

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dvdrtldg
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Post 22 Jun 2022

TritoneAddiction wrote:
20 Jun 2022
I've heard the "it's just were things are going" argument many times. But personally I can't stand that perspective. Makes me feel like we've already given up. I'm more of a "If I don't like something, I'm simply not gonna be part of it" person. That doesn't always work obviously. But to the extent that it's doable, that's the way I roll.
Well, sure. But in this case, what can anyone do?

TritoneAddiction
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Post 22 Jun 2022

dvdrtldg wrote:
22 Jun 2022
TritoneAddiction wrote:
20 Jun 2022
I've heard the "it's just were things are going" argument many times. But personally I can't stand that perspective. Makes me feel like we've already given up. I'm more of a "If I don't like something, I'm simply not gonna be part of it" person. That doesn't always work obviously. But to the extent that it's doable, that's the way I roll.
Well, sure. But in this case, what can anyone do?
Well we can simply NOT subscribe to show that we don't want this trend to go even further, not only for Reason but as a whole. I mean if no one subscribed and simply said NO we're not going along with this, we wouldn't be in this mess. Companies would be forced to scrap the whole subscription thing. The customers has the power, not the company. But I guess people either like the idea of DAW/software subscriptions or aren't ready to make any sacrifice and stick to their principles.

In my case if Reason goes subscription only, I'd stop at whatever version I'm at and make music with what I've got for as long as possible. Perhaps buy an occasional RE here and there. I'd be ok with that. Honestly lately I've realized that I have enough gear/REs to create music for YEARS. There's so much in my rack I could explore further. I can easily keep myself occupied with what I've got for a long time. So if it ever comes to that, I'd be just fine.

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avasopht
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Post 22 Jun 2022

We should raise the stakes.

Let's make a bet ... losers have to make 3 remakes of cheesy, embarrassing and/or questionable songs, but post on all their social media (or visit friends and family to play your song if you don't do social media) as if you genuinely love making this style of music.

This thread says Reason 12 will be the last ... ... ... so ... ... ... anyone wanna play?
---

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orthodox
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Post 22 Jun 2022

TritoneAddiction wrote:
22 Jun 2022
dvdrtldg wrote:
22 Jun 2022
Well, sure. But in this case, what can anyone do?
Well we can simply NOT subscribe to show that we don't want this trend to go even further, not only for Reason but as a whole. I mean if no one subscribed and simply said NO we're not going along with this, we wouldn't be in this mess. Companies would be forced to scrap the whole subscription thing. The customers has the power, not the company. But I guess people either like the idea of DAW/software subscriptions or aren't ready to make any sacrifice and stick to their principles.
That "if no one subscribed, companies would be forced..." is a utopia. What would you arrange, a movement, a flashmob? Many sticked to their principles and didn't subscribe, that does not change anything. The customers do not have the power, nor has the company. Power may come to those who have obvious truth on their side. So far it is not happening, and this means everything is going right as it should.

dakta
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Joined: 30 Aug 2021

Post 22 Jun 2022

You can only push so far in that regard before the product would just get withdrawn and the company move on to other things that can make a profit or fold

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orthodox
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Post 22 Jun 2022

dakta wrote:
22 Jun 2022
You can only push so far in that regard before the product would just get withdrawn and the company move on to other things that can make a profit or fold
Yeah, that's not power, that's capacity to destroy a good thing.

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