Have control over send / return effects in Reason

[Savah]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum and I'm writing to you from Italy.
I've been using Reason for a long time, and I've almost always used it to create tracks for songs that would actually be played with my band.
With Reason 9 (I think), I started using this wonderful DAW also for mixing, in short, for the entire music production.
You must know that here in Italy reason is becoming commonplace only in recent years and that my English is very bad.
You will understand how much difficulty I had in using this DAW when everyone else was with the various Logic, Reaper, etc.

Having said that, I would like to ask you something that is taking my sleep away.

I would like to apply some techniques in Reason that I have seen in tutorials.

Specifically, I would like to route the ambient effects that I use in the send / return of an entire song, in a bus dedicated to the effects, a subgroup that basically acts under the effects of a specific bus compressor, of a particular stereo image. , etc.
Basically I would like to control the send / return effects active on each track, in only one channel.
But how to do it in Reason? Tracks do not have a send output, this is done by the mixer ...

My conclusion was to create a single parallel channel on each track that I would apply these effects to.
On these parallel channels I "turn on" the send keys according to the amount of effect I like, I route them all on a bus which I will then treat at will.
My problem is that a parallel channel is not the same as a send / return in terms of how it uses the original signal, right?
It's a bit more like an insert effect, like that, isn't it?

How would you do it?


I hope I explained myself well thanks to google translate!

Thanks to those who want to answer me ...

[crimsonwarlock]

I think your confusion comes from the fact that Reason has a full-fledged mixer, where other DAWs basically have a volume fader for each channel. A mixer channel is synonymous with a track or a channel (more or less, it can be more complex, but let's keep it simple for now). Where other DAWs need you to create return channels for send effects, in Reason these returns are already there in the full-blown mixer.

The only real difference is that because there is a fully modelled mixer in Reason. you have eight fixed returns. In DAWs where you create your own returns, you can make more returns if needed. Having said that, I never had the need for more than three or four returns (talking about projects with a hundred tracks or more).

[Savah]

I think your confusion comes from the fact that Reason has a full-fledged mixer, where other DAWs basically have a volume fader for each channel. A mixer channel is synonymous with a track or a channel (more or less, it can be more complex, but let's keep it simple for now). Where other DAWs need you to create return channels for send effects, in Reason these returns are already there in the full-blown mixer.

The only real difference is that because there is a fully modelled mixer in Reason. you have eight fixed returns. In DAWs where you create your own returns, you can make more returns if needed. Having said that, I never had the need for more than three or four returns (talking about projects with a hundred tracks or more).

Thanks for the reply.
You're right, my confusion stems from this.
But my problem is not the number of effects to manage. my problem is the actual management ...
In fact, precisely because in Reason the send effects are fixed on the mixer, there is no track for them that I could manage and route at will.
To solve this I would like to use parallel channels in the way I wrote above, but the fear that it is not the same thing, that the concept of parallel channel is different from that of send / return in terms of signal, and that therefore, so by doing, I move away from the result I want to obtain, thus restoring as little naturalness as possible to the sound.

[Savah]

I try to explain myself better (and sorry if I won't be able to do it): I need to route all the send / returm effects used on every single channel, on a single bus, because then that bus wants it in a certain way.
And I would like to do it without combining unnatural phonic opprobrium, possibly ...

Some of you will know the Brauerizing technique in which the various instruments are divided into subgroups ..
One of these subgroups is made up of ambient effects.
Here, I need to do something similar, but the reason effects in send / return are fixed on the mixer and cannot be handled as I would like ...

Thank you!

[ekss]

I try to explain myself better (and sorry if I won't be able to do it): I need to route all the send / returm effects used on every single channel, on a single bus, because then that bus wants it in a certain way.
And I would like to do it without combining unnatural phonic opprobrium, possibly ...

Some of you will know the Brauerizing technique in which the various instruments are divided into subgroups ..
One of these subgroups is made up of ambient effects.
Here, I need to do something similar, but the reason effects in send / return are fixed on the mixer and cannot be handled as I would like ...

Thank you!

Not sure I understand you exactly correct here but this is my thought;

• Create one new mix channel for each of your send effects

• Disconnect the Outputs of the effects from the mixer return and route them to the new channels instead

• Route all these new channels to a new Output Bus (this will be your return bus)

Then all your sends will return at the mixer and can be treated in one single bus.

[PhillipOrdonez]

Yeah, ekss, that's what they meant.

The downside with this approach is delay compensation though, so, op, make sure you are not using devices that introduce latency in this effect bus. Unless all your sends are time based like reverb and delay, in which case there is no issue at all. But if your sends include for example a compressor that's meant to compress your drums in parallel for example, then you don't want to add any delay to your signal on the send effect bus.

I hope I'm clear and not causing further confusion.

I personally don't really process the sends in a group. I do any processing directly in the send chain to each individual send. But as you can see, it is doable in Reason just be mindful of what device you introduce there depending on what kind of material you have going on in your send effects.

[Savah]

Not sure I understand you exactly correct here but this is my thought;

• Create one new mix channel for each of your send effects

• Disconnect the Outputs of the effects from the mixer return and route them to the new channels instead

• Route all these new channels to a new Output Bus (this will be your return bus)

Then all your sends will return at the mixer and can be treated in one single bus.

Already done in one of my attempts! Logically I should have solved it, but it didn't work out. For some reason those effects no longer had the same influence on the instruments.
But now I intend to try again, maybe I did something wrong while I was freaked out ...

[Savah]

Yeah, ekss, that's what they meant.

The downside with this approach is delay compensation though, so, op, make sure you are not using devices that introduce latency in this effect bus. Unless all your sends are time based like reverb and delay, in which case there is no issue at all. But if your sends include for example a compressor that's meant to compress your drums in parallel for example, then you don't want to add any delay to your signal on the send effect bus.

I hope I'm clear and not causing further confusion.

I personally don't really process the sends in a group. I do any processing directly in the send chain to each individual send. But as you can see, it is doable in Reason just be mindful of what device you introduce there depending on what kind of material you have going on in your send effects.

One thing I love about Reason is that it always feels like you can do whatever you have in mind!
And that's exactly why I'm freaking out (besides the fact that I'm obviously scarce).
In any case, thank you very much for the advice, you were very clear.
Of course, I only use room effects, reverbs and delays in send / return and I would only send those into that channel.

[crimsonwarlock]

It's not clear to me what you think you will be able to do, that you cannot do with Reason sends setup. I've seen many discussions like this, not only with Reason but also with other DAWs, that always come down to someone not understanding how sends work (and importantly, why), or someone trying to do something that is not actually a send-FX scenario.

Maybe you can point to an example in a tutorial video or something like that, where you have seen what you attempt to emulate. It would be much easier for us to explain how to do that in Reason.

[PhillipOrdonez]

Or explain why you want to bus your sends, and what is it that you are trying to achieve?

[Savah]

I need it for two purposes:

The first: I'm trying to mix by dividing the mix into subgroups.
Each subgroup has a bus compressor set in a certain way, and each of these is different from the others in terms of characteristics.
One sub-group will own the lead instruments such as guitars and synth leads, in another there will be bass and percussion, in another keyboards, strings etc.
They are grouped according to their characteristic frequencies and according to the function they have in the song.
With the bus compressors set in a certain way, in addition to having more control over the dynamics, there is a self-compensating effect in the various levels of the instruments between the groups and everything seems to work better (so much so that I have noticed that you can use much less equalizers).
In short, it is the technique called "brauerizing" that I am experimenting with and it is very cool, if you do not know it I suggest you go and look for it.
The fact is that one of these subgroups is dedicated to choirs, BCVs and ambient effects (here we are, ambient effects are used in the send and here is my drama).
Among other things, it happens that this subgroup is one of the coolest, something that really makes a difference. Brauer adds to the channel of this group a very large stereo image that acts only on these "secondary" effects and tracks, creating a really beautiful stereo panorama.

The other reason is that with a series of very short delays used in very small doses on the individual tracks, you get an effect that gives a very professional sound.
We go to recreate all those small reflections of natural environments (try).
Also in this case we are dealing with send effects, but also in this case there is a need to compress a little and equalize in order not to make the mix muddy, so I need a channel to perform these operations (a channel which then, between the other will end up in the subgroup I wrote about above) ...

Guys, thank you very much for the interest you are showing

[Savah]

Here, we are talking about the brauerizing technique:

[crimsonwarlock]

The first: I'm trying to mix by dividing the mix into subgroups.
Each subgroup has a bus compressor set in a certain way, and each of these is different from the others in terms of characteristics.
One sub-group will own the lead instruments such as guitars and synth leads, in another there will be bass and percussion, in another keyboards, strings etc.
They are grouped according to their characteristic frequencies and according to the function they have in the song.
With the bus compressors set in a certain way, in addition to having more control over the dynamics, there is a self-compensating effect in the various levels of the instruments between the groups and everything seems to work better (so much so that I have noticed that you can use much less equalizers).
In short, it is the technique called "brauerizing" that I am experimenting with and it is very cool, if you do not know it I suggest you go and look for it.
The fact is that one of these subgroups is dedicated to choirs, BCVs and ambient effects (here we are, ambient effects are used in the send and here is my drama).
Among other things, it happens that this subgroup is one of the coolest, something that really makes a difference. Brauer adds to the channel of this group a very large stereo image that acts only on these "secondary" effects and tracks, creating a really beautiful stereo panorama.

What you describe here is not a send, but a mix-bus. The most obvious example is a drum-bus that groups all the separate drum sounds for combined processing. You can simply create a new mix channel in Reason and set the output of all the channels you want to group, to this channel. It will set the fader color to red to show it is a mix-bus.

The other reason is that with a series of very short delays used in very small doses on the individual tracks, you get an effect that gives a very professional sound.
We go to recreate all those small reflections of natural environments (try).
Also in this case we are dealing with send effects, but also in this case there is a need to compress a little and equalize in order not to make the mix muddy, so I need a channel to perform these operations (a channel which then, between the other will end up in the subgroup I wrote about above) ...

This is normally done with inserts, as you want different amounts for each individual channel. As soon as you want to 'share' a certain effect with multiple tracks, you can either do that with inserts (as they are in Reason) or on the different mix-busses.

[PhillipOrdonez]

Got it. Here is what I so:

Dial in your send levels, and once you ready with them best of your ability, go to file menu, and then into bounce mixer channels, select only the send channels, select add tracks into project, bounce, and voila, your sends are there as audio tracks, you can gruop them and process them as you wish.

Or, the other option would be to Frankenstein the cabling on the back to route each send output to its own mix channel and from then group and go wild.

It can be done! But be mindful of latency if you go this route.

[crimsonwarlock]

Here, we are talking about the brauerizing technique:

Yep, that clears it up: he is constantly talking about busses, not sends

Any complex splitting of signals into multiple separate groups can be done in Reason with busses. Especially the splitting of signals to go to separate busses is something you can do easy in Reason as it has audio-splitters. Just setup mix channels for each split signal and route that to the appropriate bus for further processing.

[crimsonwarlock]

It can be done! But be mindful of latency if you go this route.

If you stay away from sends (as I described above) I think latency is not a real issue.

[selig]

I read up on “brauerizing" and I’m thinking,
“Isn’t this what we’ve all been doing on the SSL for decades?”…
Almost everyone uses sub-mixes and subtle compression at multiple stages in modern mixing. Beyond that, copying Michaels exact setup, like copying Ton Lord-Alges exact setup etc. can be a great starting point, but maybe a not so great destination!
But even those guys change things up over time, so IMO its more important to understand the basic concepts behind the specific techniques so you can apply them to your mixes using your own style and approach.
For example, engineers I know choose different instruments to include in subgroups, depending on personal preference, genre, and style. And many of the exact effects are not important, which is again going back to the idea of understanding the intent of the process rather than just learning the steps involved in the process.
But bottom line, yea, you can do all this and more in Reason, and it’s possibly a life long journey discovering all the possibilities!
I suggest starting small, getting your head around bus channels and how compression interacts differently with individual vs groups of instruments. When you can hear and appreciate those differences, move on to the next level, etc. - no use jumping into the deep end and drowning before you can at least tread water IMO.
Happy to help with specifics/questions to get you up and running!

[Savah]

What you describe here is not a send, but a mix-bus. The most obvious example is a drum-bus that groups all the separate drum sounds for combined processing. You can simply create a new mix channel in Reason and set the output of all the channels you want to group, to this channel. It will set the fader color to red to show it is a mix-bus.

I know it's a mix bus, but in that mix bus I have to route the effect sends of all the tracks ...
And the sends don't have a mix channel to do that ...

This is normally done with inserts, as you want different amounts for each individual channel. As soon as you want to 'share' a certain effect with multiple tracks, you can either do that with inserts (as they are in Reason) or on the different mix-busses.

I didn't understand this but it looks interesting. Can you explain to me? Does Reason allow you to share insert effects on multiple channels like it does with send effects? Thank you!

But in any case, don't insert effects have different signal characteristics from those used in send?
I know that for ambient effects it is not recommended to use them in inserts (unless they are an integral part of the sound, a characteristic feature of that sound and not a creation of a sound environment).

[Savah]

Got it. Here is what I so:

Dial in your send levels, and once you ready with them best of your ability, go to file menu, and then into bounce mixer channels, select only the send channels, select add tracks into project, bounce, and voila, your sends are there as audio tracks, you can gruop them and process them as you wish.

Or, the other option would be to Frankenstein the cabling on the back to route each send output to its own mix channel and from then group and go wild.

It can be done! But be mindful of latency if you go this route.

Great idea, thanks!
I'll try as soon as I can ...

[PhillipOrdonez]

Select mixers in channel, right click, there's an option to send to a new bus. Watch

While he does talk about send effects, he also mentions buses so you get to learn two things here.

[PhillipOrdonez]

Had I not known you didn't know how to use buses I would have saved so much time. I was focusing on your desire to bus the send effects that I didn't realize you didn't know how to do buses/groups in Reason

[Savah]

I read up on “brauerizing" and I’m thinking,
“Isn’t this what we’ve all been doing on the SSL for decades?”…
Almost everyone uses sub-mixes and subtle compression at multiple stages in modern mixing. Beyond that, copying Michaels exact setup, like copying Ton Lord-Alges exact setup etc. can be a great starting point, but maybe a not so great destination!
But even those guys change things up over time, so IMO its more important to understand the basic concepts behind the specific techniques so you can apply them to your mixes using your own style and approach.
For example, engineers I know choose different instruments to include in subgroups, depending on personal preference, genre, and style. And many of the exact effects are not important, which is again going back to the idea of understanding the intent of the process rather than just learning the steps involved in the process.
But bottom line, yea, you can do all this and more in Reason, and it’s possibly a life long journey discovering all the possibilities!
I suggest starting small, getting your head around bus channels and how compression interacts differently with individual vs groups of instruments. When you can hear and appreciate those differences, move on to the next level, etc. - no use jumping into the deep end and drowning before you can at least tread water IMO.
Happy to help with specifics/questions to get you up and running!

I totally agree with everything you've written, and it's my approach to a bit too.

But this mix-bus thing about room effects gets me excited and I absolutely have to try it!

For the rest, you are absolutely right!

[Savah]

Had I not known you didn't know how to use buses I would have saved so much time. I was focusing on your desire to bus the send effects that I didn't realize you didn't know how to do buses/groups in Reason

wait maybe there is a misunderstanding!
I can create mix buses!
I make great use of it, believe me!
But what I can't do is route send effects in a mix bus as I would like, because send effects don't have a mixer channel ...
But you answered this further on and I'll try to do as you wrote, thanks again!

[Savah]

Of course because I want to use the shared ones in all channels, and not create parallel channels to put effects on all the time ...

[PhillipOrdonez]

Had I not known you didn't know how to use buses I would have saved so much time. I was focusing on your desire to bus the send effects that I didn't realize you didn't know how to do buses/groups in Reason

wait maybe there is a misunderstanding!
I can create mix buses!
I make great use of it, believe me!
But what I can't do is route send effects in a mix bus as I would like, because send effects don't have a mixer channel ...
But you answered this further on and I'll try to do as you wrote, thanks again!

Oh yeah, so I understood it at first, then the other commenters confused me. Good thing I already gave you the answer you needed, then