808 bass/sub bass help.

[SatURn-Kron0s]

Hi guys/gals,

This is my first post here and hopefully I don't ask something that has been asked too many times before.

Anyways, I'm new to Reason, - well not quite NEW since I bought Reason 9 -, and recently upgraded to 12 as I'm trying to get back into making music. DAW's in general are confusing to me since the majority of musical career was spent as a bassist and I never really dove into the DAW side of things. Well, here I am trying to finally tackle this and make music on my own.

Stylistically, I really like Trap/Phonk/Hip-Hop and styles that blend these elements together. Inspiration comes really easily to me in Reason, especially on the synth side of things, so there is no lack of ideas/sounds to pursue.

What I'm struggling with is BASS (odd considering my primary instrument is electric bass); nothing I do seems to get that fat, boomy, rich + saturated sound that I am drawn to on the music I listen to. I've tried following Ryan's/Reason's tutorial on 808 bass construction, but it just sounds weak on my end once it is all said and done.

Where do I start? Am I doing something wrong? I genuinely love Reason and the sounds I can get from it, but I just can't get convincing bass sub-bass/808 bass sounds out of it. In this case, I have to assume responsibility and say "this is not a fault of the DAW but rather the operator."

Any suggestions would be great and appreciated. I'm certainly not looking for a magic bullet, but I'm assuming I'm missing some fundamentals and need to start somewhere.

[crimsonwarlock]

First question that comes to mind: do you have a speaker system that can actually emit sub-bass frequencies?

[Billy+]

Have you considered accessing the sound packs from plus subscription?

There's a massive amount of 808 trap packs available, you could trial plus for a week and grab all the packs that interest you....

[SatURn-Kron0s]

First question that comes to mind: do you have a speaker system that can actually emit sub-bass frequencies?

Hey crimson, thanks for replying.

To be honest, I'm not sure. I am using Sennheiser HD660S headphones. I know if I bring up Spotify or whatever and play a track, the bass is deep and saturated, yet when I start messing around in Reason, the low end just falls flat and weak.

As you can tell, I'm about as green/novice as they come. Is there sound system setup that I should look at? My designated studio area is going to need a lot of work for the acoustics if I use speakers.

Thanks!

[SatURn-Kron0s]

Have you considered accessing the sound packs from plus subscription?

There's a massive amount of 808 trap packs available, you could trial plus for a week and grab all the packs that interest you....

Hi! I do have the + subscription and have not tried this! I did look at a few and the sounds that were listed were classified as "runs". Can you use them a single shot samples? Sorry for sounding stupid - I'm literally as novice as it gets but I'm trying to spend as much time learning Reason as I can.

[crimsonwarlock]

To be honest, I'm not sure. I am using Sennheiser HD660S headphones. I know if I bring up Spotify or whatever and play a track, the bass is deep and saturated, yet when I start messing around in Reason, the low end just falls flat and weak.

OK, so that's a yes. If your headphones produce those sub-bass sounds in other tracks, then it should be possible to get those sounds from Reason as well.

As Billy+ suggested, it can be a question of using the right sounds. But a good bass-tone is also clearly a 'production' thing; equalizing, compression and maybe sub-harmonic synthesizers might come into play. In the realm of equalizers, the so called 'pultec trick' comes to mind, so try an EQ that can do that. For compression, you might want something that can do high ratios and if you want to play with sub-harmonic generators, those are also available as RE or VST. I'm sure others will chime in with more tips and ideas.

[Billy+]

Have you considered accessing the sound packs from plus subscription?

There's a massive amount of 808 trap packs available, you could trial plus for a week and grab all the packs that interest you....

Hi! I do have the + subscription and have not tried this! I did look at a few and the sounds that were listed were classified as "runs". Can you use them a single shot samples? Sorry for sounding stupid - I'm literally as novice as it gets but I'm trying to spend as much time learning Reason as I can.

You should in most cases be able to

I think if you look at some of the earlier packs you should be able to find a few that contain demo songs, try loading one and then have a good look around

Try searching the packs location for .reason files

I'm not able to point you in the right direction as I'm away from my Reason device at the moment.

[SatURn-Kron0s]

To be honest, I'm not sure. I am using Sennheiser HD660S headphones. I know if I bring up Spotify or whatever and play a track, the bass is deep and saturated, yet when I start messing around in Reason, the low end just falls flat and weak.

OK, so that's a yes. If your headphones produce those sub-bass sounds in other tracks, then it should be possible to get those sounds from Reason as well.

As Billy+ suggested, it can be a question of using the right sounds. But a good bass-tone is also clearly a 'production' thing; equalizing, compression and maybe sub-harmonic synthesizers might come into play. In the realm of equalizers, the so called 'pultec trick' comes to mind, so try an EQ that can do that. For compression, you might want something that can do high ratios and if you want to play with sub-harmonic generators, those are also available as RE or VST. I'm sure others will chime in with more tips and ideas.

Thanks for the advice!

Is there a high ratio compressor that you could recommend as a VST or RE? Also, what is a sub harmonic synth? Would that be something different than say Subtractor/Malstrom, etc?

[SatURn-Kron0s]

Hi! I do have the + subscription and have not tried this! I did look at a few and the sounds that were listed were classified as "runs". Can you use them a single shot samples? Sorry for sounding stupid - I'm literally as novice as it gets but I'm trying to spend as much time learning Reason as I can.

You should in most cases be able to

I think if you look at some of the earlier packs you should be able to find a few that contain demo songs, try loading one and then have a good look around

Try searching the packs location for .reason files

I'm not able to point you in the right direction as I'm away from my Reason device at the moment.

Thanks! Okay, when I get back to my rig I'll take a browse! Appreciate the help .

Is it normal to feel absolutely overwhelmed at first when using a DAW? I feel like I broke past the initial phase of being 100% clueless in Reason and thought, "gee, I might be getting the hang of this." Now I realize I'm only 99% clueless and the rabbit hole is way deeper than anticipated lol!

[Billy+]

It's all good and try stay away from buying anything else unless you really want it for a bit

Spend a good few months playing with the content (sound packs & devices) that's included in plus and you'll learn plenty, poke it twiddle with it rewire it etc

[crimsonwarlock]

Is there a high ratio compressor that you could recommend as a VST or RE?

There are several available as a RE, but you might start with some free VST compressors. Go look around http://vst4free.com, there's a lot of good stuff there.

Also, what is a sub harmonic synth? Would that be something different than say Subtractor/Malstrom, etc?

It's very different from a synthesizer instrument (like subtractor). Search the shop for 'Stimulant Subharmonic Generator' or 'RE 200 Bass Enhancer' for some examples. Again you might find some free VST alternative on the site I mentioned.

[crimsonwarlock]

..... the rabbit hole is way deeper than anticipated lol!

It's more like the metro-system of a large city

[SatURn-Kron0s]

It's all good and try stay away from buying anything else unless you really want it for a bit

Spend a good few months playing with the content (sound packs & devices) that's included in plus and you'll learn plenty, poke it twiddle with it rewire it etc

10-4 on that! That's my plan and I'll resist the beginner phase trap of endlessly buying/sound chasing stuff without fully understanding the tools currently at your disposal. Thanks again!

[SatURn-Kron0s]

..... the rabbit hole is way deeper than anticipated lol!

It's more like the metro-system of a large city

Haha, that's a really good analogy. At least there's a lot to explore!

[SatURn-Kron0s]

Is there a high ratio compressor that you could recommend as a VST or RE?

There are several available as a RE, but you might start with some free VST compressors. Go look around http://vst4free.com, there's a lot of good stuff there.

Also, what is a sub harmonic synth? Would that be something different than say Subtractor/Malstrom, etc?

It's very different from a synthesizer instrument (like subtractor). Search the shop for 'Stimulant Subharmonic Generator' or 'RE 200 Bass Enhancer' for some examples. Again you might find some free VST alternative on the site I mentioned.

Awesome. Looks like I'll have plenty to do later. I'll definitely look into all of these. Thanks for the direction!

[Billy+]

It's all good and try stay away from buying anything else unless you really want it for a bit

Spend a good few months playing with the content (sound packs & devices) that's included in plus and you'll learn plenty, poke it twiddle with it rewire it etc

10-4 on that! That's my plan and I'll resist the beginner phase trap of endlessly buying/sound chasing stuff without fully understanding the tools currently at your disposal. Thanks again!

Best advice I can give you is to learn about what you already have and ignore the marketing magic bullet

[WarStar]

One thing to keep in mind is that the tracks your comparing to in Spotify are mastered as well so they will have a more even heavy low end as virtue of being mastered and I'd imagine what your creating isn't mastered quite yet.. just a guess..

One thing that helped me is trust the instruments more or less.. it's not they don't create that low end your looking for but rather you haven't gotten there yet..

One approach is to find a rich low end patch if it's a 808 sound you're looking for. A basic sine patch will work.. then duplicate the midi notes and mess around with another synth with those same midi notes and look for a saturated sounding patch.. on the duplicated note track/synth EQ out just enough of the low-end so it's not masking or overlapping with your low end sine patch and if there's too much hi end saturation on the duplicated patch you should EQ the high end out to taste.. when you find a good combination of the two different patches bus them them together and put some gentle compression on the bus with Reasons mastering compressor.. 1-2 db reduction with make up gain.. use a fairly low ratio and mid to late attack and mid release.. you'll have to mess around with the settings a little bit to find the sweet spot..

Subtractor has some good clean low end 808 sine-ish type patches and a easy go-to decent saturation patch can be Subtractors default bass patch which is such a great patch... Do the above mentioned approach.. if the default bass patch doesn't have enough saturation maybe put a little distortion on it with Scream or some overdrive or saturation.. combine both to a bus and add some gentle compression with a Master compressor.. if it's missing some attack, ie click-ish sound at the beginning of each note, try compressing the default bass patch by its self before you combine and buss it with the low end patch.. use a decent snappy compressor settings, an attack setting between 9-12 o'clock and a fairly quick release.. want probably a 2-3 db gain reduction.. you'll have to mess with the compressor settings to get a little more snap to the patch when a key/note is hit.. then bus it with with the low end patch as mentioned above with some gentle compression..

This maybe be a good way to start..

[SatURn-Kron0s]

One thing to keep in mind is that the tracks your comparing to in Spotify are mastered as well so they will have a more even heavy low end as virtue of being mastered and I'd imagine what your creating isn't mastered quite yet.. just a guess..

One thing that helped me is trust the instruments more or less.. it's not they don't create that low end your looking for but rather you haven't gotten there yet..

One approach is to find a rich low end patch if it's a 808 sound you're looking for. A basic sine patch will work.. then duplicate the midi notes and mess around with another synth with those same midi notes and look for a saturated sounding patch.. on the duplicated note track/synth EQ out just enough of the low-end so it's not masking or overlapping with your low end sine patch and if there's too much hi end saturation on the duplicated patch you should EQ the high end out to taste.. when you find a good combination of the two different patches bus them them together and put some gentle compression on the bus with Reasons mastering compressor.. 1-2 db reduction with make up gain.. use a fairly low ratio and mid to late attack and mid release.. you'll have to mess around with the settings a little bit to find the sweet spot..

Subtractor has some good clean low end 808 sine-ish type patches and a easy go-to decent saturation patch can be Subtractors default bass patch which is such a great patch... Do the above mentioned approach.. if the default bass patch doesn't have enough saturation maybe put a little distortion on it with Scream or some overdrive or saturation.. combine both to a bus and add some gentle compression with a Master compressor.. if it's missing some attack, ie click-ish sound at the beginning of each note, try compressing the default bass patch by its self before you combine and buss it with the low end patch.. use a decent snappy compressor settings, an attack setting between 9-12 o'clock and a fairly quick release.. want probably a 2-3 db gain reduction.. you'll have to mess with the compressor settings to get a little more snap to the patch when a key/note is hit.. then bus it with with the low end patch as mentioned above with some gentle compression..

This maybe be a good way to start..

Hi Warstar. Thanks for the response! This is a lot of new info for me to take in, but I believe I understand your approach. And yes, you're correct - definitely don't have anything mastered yet, although I do understand the mixing phase a bit better than I did when I first started.

As for side chaining/bussing. That concept is new to me. Is there a tutorial or thread here that explains the basics? I would have no idea where to begin with that even though it may be a simple process for more advanced users. I'll get there!

Thanks!

[Kalm]

TO be perfectly honest, the best thing you can do is match the timbre of the bass to your song as close as possible first. Many problems with 808s is that people cannot hear the sub region. The issue with subs is that many people want to play the fundamental of a sub frequency as loud as possible, however the lower in range, the quieter it needs to be in order for a balanced playback.

To compromise this many producers turn the content of everything extremely quiet. Contrary to trap producers belief, the sub region doesn't have to be loud to be heard and "hard". The impression of hard hitting 808s come from the frequency domain where "thump" exist which is truthfully the low mid to low region (80-200 Hz). In other words where the kick resides.

If you cannot hear sub frequencies, I highly recommend getting something that allows you too. You cannot, and I repeat cannot, mix what you can hear regardless of what stage in the writing process you are in. Try these steps out to help understand and achieve your goal faster.

1. Pick subs that cut through your specific song. Don't try to conform a bass that's too sub for the music or doesn't have enough low end. It should play nice with the kick and other elements without having to tweak EQ's or saturation. This is foundation.

2. With your EQ, learn to boost the harmonics of your sub. Use a spectrograph or frequency analyzer if you need clarity on where they are.

3. Don't do much of anything else to the bass unless you hear a concern with the bass on another system. Cars are extremely helpful for this. They don't need to be perfect monitoring systems. You just need to know if the bass is overpowering, has too much sub energy, etc.

I can keep writing for days on this topic but if you want to know about anything specific let me know. I might even do a tutorial mixing in sub bass soon.

[selig]

TO be perfectly honest, the best thing you can do is match the timbre of the bass to your song as close as possible first. Many problems with 808s is that people cannot hear the sub region. The issue with subs is that many people want to play the fundamental of a sub frequency as loud as possible, however the lower in range, the quieter it needs to be in order for a balanced playback.

To compromise this many producers turn the content of everything extremely quiet. Contrary to trap producers belief, the sub region doesn't have to be loud to be heard and "hard". The impression of hard hitting 808s come from the frequency domain where "thump" exist which is truthfully the low mid to low region (80-200 Hz). In other words where the kick resides.

If you cannot hear sub frequencies, I highly recommend getting something that allows you too. You cannot, and I repeat cannot, mix what you can hear regardless of what stage in the writing process you are in. Try these steps out to help understand and achieve your goal faster.

1. Pick subs that cut through your specific song. Don't try to conform a bass that's too sub for the music or doesn't have enough low end. It should play nice with the kick and other elements without having to tweak EQ's or saturation. This is foundation.

2. With your EQ, learn to boost the harmonics of your sub. Use a spectrograph or frequency analyzer if you need clarity on where they are.

3. Don't do much of anything else to the bass unless you hear a concern with the bass on another system. Cars are extremely helpful for this. They don't need to be perfect monitoring systems. You just need to know if the bass is overpowering, has too much sub energy, etc.

I can keep writing for days on this topic but if you want to know about anything specific let me know. I might even do a tutorial mixing in sub bass soon.

TRUTH - and definitely do a tutorial, this subject comes up again and again.

[SatURn-Kron0s]

TO be perfectly honest, the best thing you can do is match the timbre of the bass to your song as close as possible first. Many problems with 808s is that people cannot hear the sub region. The issue with subs is that many people want to play the fundamental of a sub frequency as loud as possible, however the lower in range, the quieter it needs to be in order for a balanced playback.

To compromise this many producers turn the content of everything extremely quiet. Contrary to trap producers belief, the sub region doesn't have to be loud to be heard and "hard". The impression of hard hitting 808s come from the frequency domain where "thump" exist which is truthfully the low mid to low region (80-200 Hz). In other words where the kick resides.

If you cannot hear sub frequencies, I highly recommend getting something that allows you too. You cannot, and I repeat cannot, mix what you can hear regardless of what stage in the writing process you are in. Try these steps out to help understand and achieve your goal faster.

1. Pick subs that cut through your specific song. Don't try to conform a bass that's too sub for the music or doesn't have enough low end. It should play nice with the kick and other elements without having to tweak EQ's or saturation. This is foundation.

2. With your EQ, learn to boost the harmonics of your sub. Use a spectrograph or frequency analyzer if you need clarity on where they are.

3. Don't do much of anything else to the bass unless you hear a concern with the bass on another system. Cars are extremely helpful for this. They don't need to be perfect monitoring systems. You just need to know if the bass is overpowering, has too much sub energy, etc.

I can keep writing for days on this topic but if you want to know about anything specific let me know. I might even do a tutorial mixing in sub bass soon.

Wow! This is a lot of food for thought, but I am getting the overall picture of what you are saying. I'm starting to realize I need to understand EQ concepts better and balancing frequencies in a mix to create a PERCEPTION that the low end is thumping without just arbitrarily boosting the low end.

If my headphones are producing the sub frequency sounds is that good enough for now? Ideally I'd like to get a speaker setup for my rig but I have no idea where to start in terms of gear, especially for the low end frequencies. Do I run a subwoofer?

Anyways, my plan now is to mix and master on my headphones and use my car system as an additional reference.

Thanks man!

[DaveyG]

It's not really my thing but for listeners with less than ideal speakers/headphones you can still communicate deep bass by including harmonics of the bass. You ears and brain fill in the blanks and "hear" the low down stuff that is not actually being reproduced. Someone more knowledgeable than me can probably describe that a bit better!

[Kalm]

TO be perfectly honest, the best thing you can do is match the timbre of the bass to your song as close as possible first. Many problems with 808s is that people cannot hear the sub region. The issue with subs is that many people want to play the fundamental of a sub frequency as loud as possible, however the lower in range, the quieter it needs to be in order for a balanced playback.

To compromise this many producers turn the content of everything extremely quiet. Contrary to trap producers belief, the sub region doesn't have to be loud to be heard and "hard". The impression of hard hitting 808s come from the frequency domain where "thump" exist which is truthfully the low mid to low region (80-200 Hz). In other words where the kick resides.

If you cannot hear sub frequencies, I highly recommend getting something that allows you too. You cannot, and I repeat cannot, mix what you can hear regardless of what stage in the writing process you are in. Try these steps out to help understand and achieve your goal faster.

1. Pick subs that cut through your specific song. Don't try to conform a bass that's too sub for the music or doesn't have enough low end. It should play nice with the kick and other elements without having to tweak EQ's or saturation. This is foundation.

2. With your EQ, learn to boost the harmonics of your sub. Use a spectrograph or frequency analyzer if you need clarity on where they are.

3. Don't do much of anything else to the bass unless you hear a concern with the bass on another system. Cars are extremely helpful for this. They don't need to be perfect monitoring systems. You just need to know if the bass is overpowering, has too much sub energy, etc.

I can keep writing for days on this topic but if you want to know about anything specific let me know. I might even do a tutorial mixing in sub bass soon.

Wow! This is a lot of food for thought, but I am getting the overall picture of what you are saying. I'm starting to realize I need to understand EQ concepts better and balancing frequencies in a mix to create a PERCEPTION that the low end is thumping without just arbitrarily boosting the low end.

If my headphones are producing the sub frequency sounds is that good enough for now? Ideally I'd like to get a speaker setup for my rig but I have no idea where to start in terms of gear, especially for the low end frequencies. Do I run a subwoofer?

Anyways, my plan now is to mix and master on my headphones and use my car system as an additional reference.

Thanks man!

Take a look at this video I just watched -

There's primarily two philosophies with this. Reduce the amount of components/crossovers in a system for a purer signal (me) or separate the components to individual proprietary processes for better reproduction (3 way / 4 way systems). In my opinion, if I need to mix bass heavy music like trap, edm, and hip hop . .I'll choose the best 2-3 way dual speaker setup I possibly can afford specifically two hear that. For example, I mix on Event Opals because I can avoid dealing with sub placement, rattling, and tedious crossover challenges with a speaker that hits way above its price range (and for good reason). I went from Adam T7V which had an inflated bass to Event Opals which has correct bass, at least to me. If I was using the Adam T7V still, I would invest in a subwoofer because Adam monitors to me put all their efforts into the ribbon tweeter and have less clarity in the bass/sub bass region compared to other manufacturers.

That's a ginormous price jump but that's what I was willing to spend for correct bass reproduction since my music demands that. It makes no sense for my room and my REW graph to get a sub when I have decent reproduction down to 40 Hz (-3 at 35Hz). If you need help picking out gear and speakers, it's literally what I do for all my friends starting out.

If sub frequencies are your goal, I'd advise investing in Yamaha HS8s full stop. Caveat, they have somewhat of a boxy tone but their low end extension is phenomenal for the price because its never overhyped. It's been tried and tested and I've done it myself. It won't give you the super sub extension, but it can definitely tell if your bass is punching and if you are hearing TOO much sub regardless of the room you're in. They sound even better in treated environments. Their biggest con to me is their spatial reproduction. Everything sounds mono and tight. So good for frequency balancing, bad for spatially awareness IMO.

If you plan on mixing with headphones for now, your headphones are more than enough. Personally I would only use Sennheiser 600 series or ATH M30/40's for mixing price/performance. If you feel like your mixes aren't completely translating in the headphone domain, invest in Sonarworks to correct the region that's causing the issue. Just make sure to take many many breaks . . . like every 30min - hour to reset your ears from so much direct sound, amplitude, and wear on your lobes.

[WarStar]

One thing to keep in mind is that the tracks your comparing to in Spotify are mastered as well so they will have a more even heavy low end as virtue of being mastered and I'd imagine what your creating isn't mastered quite yet.. just a guess..

One thing that helped me is trust the instruments more or less.. it's not they don't create that low end your looking for but rather you haven't gotten there yet..

One approach is to find a rich low end patch if it's a 808 sound you're looking for. A basic sine patch will work.. then duplicate the midi notes and mess around with another synth with those same midi notes and look for a saturated sounding patch.. on the duplicated note track/synth EQ out just enough of the low-end so it's not masking or overlapping with your low end sine patch and if there's too much hi end saturation on the duplicated patch you should EQ the high end out to taste.. when you find a good combination of the two different patches bus them them together and put some gentle compression on the bus with Reasons mastering compressor.. 1-2 db reduction with make up gain.. use a fairly low ratio and mid to late attack and mid release.. you'll have to mess around with the settings a little bit to find the sweet spot..

Subtractor has some good clean low end 808 sine-ish type patches and a easy go-to decent saturation patch can be Subtractors default bass patch which is such a great patch... Do the above mentioned approach.. if the default bass patch doesn't have enough saturation maybe put a little distortion on it with Scream or some overdrive or saturation.. combine both to a bus and add some gentle compression with a Master compressor.. if it's missing some attack, ie click-ish sound at the beginning of each note, try compressing the default bass patch by its self before you combine and buss it with the low end patch.. use a decent snappy compressor settings, an attack setting between 9-12 o'clock and a fairly quick release.. want probably a 2-3 db gain reduction.. you'll have to mess with the compressor settings to get a little more snap to the patch when a key/note is hit.. then bus it with with the low end patch as mentioned above with some gentle compression..

This maybe be a good way to start..

Hi Warstar. Thanks for the response! This is a lot of new info for me to take in, but I believe I understand your approach. And yes, you're correct - definitely don't have anything mastered yet, although I do understand the mixing phase a bit better than I did when I first started.

As for side chaining/bussing. That concept is new to me. Is there a tutorial or thread here that explains the basics? I would have no idea where to begin with that even though it may be a simple process for more advanced users. I'll get there!

Thanks!

Bussing I pretty easy..

Hi-light the two channel strip tracks for the sub synth and saturation synth in the mixer view, hold cntrl and select the two.. then right click on the hi-lighted tracks and chose "route to new bus" and it's done... The compressors will be added to the insert section of the new bus you just made which .. add one to the individual synth insert to the saturation synth track if necessary as already mentioned for added attack..

I guess I forgot about the side chaining part.. but try to get your fundamental 808 sound first and then come back to the forum and we'll walk you through that as well... Good luck!

[moofi]

Are we talking bassdrums, basslines, both?