Reason saw osc

[splitpen]

Created a Shapov style saw / heavy reverbed pluck lead, see attachment (R11) Which is a type of sound i hear a lot in the future rave genre.
A cool little trick for the reverb of europa, output an lfo from the europa to the cv in a combi and modulate the reverb size with a couple percent.
This way the reverb will get a wider stereo effect and less metallic sounding. I use of the envelopes to control the amp gain, which gives you a more control over the shape of the sound then the ADSR.

Cool thing with this patch, if you play and hold a note, the other notes will get a full reverb effect so you can create a lot of movement/ less static sound.

Cool patch, how would you go about creating the "sidechain reverb" effect?

I've played with rv7000mk2 using cv on the gate trigger but it doesn't feel right...

A couple of ways to do it, most easy and flexible one is to make another europa inside the combi and use one of the envelopes to create a mod curve cv attached to rotary 3.

[eXode]

Totally agree Exode!
The unison in the mod does "a better job" in creating a more detuned effect, combined with finetune offset.. but stays behind compared to other synths. See for example oldschool gabber style detuned saw which isn't bad, but needs a little extra processing to get it fat sounding.

The thing to be aware of with the unison mod though is that it changes the modulation rate if you switch sample rates. This is a bug that I've reported and that has not been fixed (wouldn't surprise me if they say that it's by design).

Basically try a simple supersaw patch with the Unison 7 modifier and then switch sample rate (i.e. from 44 to 88 kHz). This is a problem because it means that I cannot trust that what I hear is what every user will hear due to the possibility of users using different sample rates in the DAW. This has kept me from using the Unison modifier when designing presets.

One thing that bothers me with Europa though is that the unison sections is kind of weak. I would have loved at least 8 voices, but preferably even more than that. And also the Normal detune mode is pretty weak compared to most other synths (including Thor). Don't know why they made it so weak. It's hard to get that great hard supersaw sound because of that.

I used to think the same thing but there is a hidden truth inside Europa about supersaw I just discovered recently!
Instead of using the main Unison, use Unison 7 from the modifier! Which is the same number of saw oscillators from Roland's famous JP800! Try it, it sounds great! You're welcome

Screen Shot 2021-11-13 at 20.59.45.png

Like I wrote a couple of posts up the Unison 7 modifier is no good because it changes when you change the sample rate...

[RandomNoise]

The thing to be aware of with the unison mod though is that it changes the modulation rate if you switch sample rates. This is a bug that I've reported and that has not been fixed (wouldn't surprise me if they say that it's by design).

Basically try a simple supersaw patch with the Unison 7 modifier and then switch sample rate (i.e. from 44 to 88 kHz). This is a problem because it means that I cannot trust that what I hear is what every user will hear due to the possibility of users using different sample rates in the DAW. This has kept me from using the Unison modifier when designing presets.

I used to think the same thing but there is a hidden truth inside Europa about supersaw I just discovered recently!
Instead of using the main Unison, use Unison 7 from the modifier! Which is the same number of saw oscillators from Roland's famous JP800! Try it, it sounds great! You're welcome

Screen Shot 2021-11-13 at 20.59.45.png

Like I wrote a couple of posts up the Unison 7 modifier is no good because it changes when you change the sample rate...

Oh I see, sorry I've missed that part...

[QVprod]

Didn’t notice a “ping” sound in the this patch, but I could’ve missed it perhaps. I also detuned each Europa from each other. I think you should be able to get around that however by varying attack or modulating the wavetable with a slightly different LFO on each.

I do agree that Thor is easier to get the supersaw sound with, but it’s harder to get the same fatness or width. It’s a bit of a trade off with each. Subtractor is likely the best option from an oscillator standpoint, but you’d need way too many of them. I think each gets you in the ballpark of what most people are looking for though.

It's not a ping per se, but you get a phasing attack sound. I've noticed it between two oscillators in a single instance of Europa as well, when using the unison and detuning the oscillators against each other. It's a quirk that I dislike. You can hear it very clearly in the example below. This is with Phase Sync disabled.


Europa_Thor_Europa_Antidote.mp3

Ah, yeah that I do notice. As you said, I wouldn’t have classified it as a ping sound. I think how noticeable it is also varies depending on spread and detune though in context.

[moofi]

Like you might remember I got several analog and digital sawoscillators within the modular. They all sound different by themselves not because of anything attached to them but the raw saw shape. It´s those little alterations between oscillators´ waveforms creating the critical difference in sound. Just because they are all named saw and might look identical from further away or at lower resolution, doesn´t make them identical at all.
I know it´s the way people like to think especially about standard waveforms and where an exact copy of a waveform over different oscillators is being used this naturally applies, then usually a saw is not a saw is not a saw, even more so in hardwareworld.

I at least guess, having been to modularland yourself, you had the opportunity to make that experience.

As I have been pretty nerdy about these things in the past I've come to the conclusion that the shape of the saw on it's own doesn't really matter that much, it's everything else that matters. I.e. can you drive the mixer, filter, and amp in various ways? All those things on the way to the output will have an impact.

Eusti's comparison, while thorough, is also meaningless because each synth will shape the saw differently on the way to it's output so the "differences" you see is not necessarily because the saw is different.

Finally, regarding your first question. The Serum saw is nothing special. It's set to a 180 phase by default meaning that it actually starts from the middle (i.e. at the bottom). So basically it's just like this:


up_ramp.png

[splitpen]

Little take on creating a 7 osc supersaw with Europa, use the detune and offset for tweaking the detune effect.

[selig]

Like I wrote a couple of posts up the Unison 7 modifier is no good because it changes when you change the sample rate...

I just checked and I'm hearing no change from 48k to 96k, but just did a quick test with settings maxed out on the Unison effect so I could more quickly tell what (if anything) was changing.
I also tested a repeated note, and did not find the "phasing attack sound". Instead I heard an ever evolving start point for each note played, but with a consistent detune/beating effect throughout.
So either this issue has been addressed with an update, or I'm doing the testing wrong.
I checked this because I always REALLY liked the detune effect in Europa, but I could be using it differently than others.

For my test, reset Europa, use saw wave, Unison all knobs maxed, and I only tested 48 vs 96k sample rates. Did I miss something?

[eXode]

Like I wrote a couple of posts up the Unison 7 modifier is no good because it changes when you change the sample rate...

I just checked and I'm hearing no change from 48k to 96k, but just did a quick test with settings maxed out on the Unison effect so I could more quickly tell what (if anything) was changing.
I also tested a repeated note, and did not find the "phasing attack sound". Instead I heard an ever evolving start point for each note played, but with a consistent detune/beating effect throughout.
So either this issue has been addressed with an update, or I'm doing the testing wrong.
I checked this because I always REALLY liked the detune effect in Europa, but I could be using it differently than others.

For my test, reset Europa, use saw wave, Unison all knobs maxed, and I only tested 48 vs 96k sample rates. Did I miss something?

Are you testing the unison modifier and not the unison section like I wrote for the sample rate bug? The phasing attack sound was tested with two oscillators with unison and some detuning between the oscillators, you can hear the attack clearly on my recorded example. Also see the attached zip with example patches to avoid further confusion.

[moofi]

You can simply cut out waveforms from any recording.
If you like, you can check the modular recordings here because they are in wav-format:

https://hearthis.at/moofi/

Not everything is modular there, yet where labeled as such, it is
Just not sure wether you find a pure saw there

So if it's the imperfections that add to the sound of the saw along with its sync drift and Europa is definitely going to be the better device for playing with this stuff what's missing is a way to create different saw wavetables does anyone know of any free software for producing wavetables based on saws that Europa will be happy with?

Or maybe a saw collection from different devices analog and digital, does RT have a wavetable collection?

Wasn't everyone always after the Juno supersaw sound?

[selig]

I just checked and I'm hearing no change from 48k to 96k, but just did a quick test with settings maxed out on the Unison effect so I could more quickly tell what (if anything) was changing.
I also tested a repeated note, and did not find the "phasing attack sound". Instead I heard an ever evolving start point for each note played, but with a consistent detune/beating effect throughout.
So either this issue has been addressed with an update, or I'm doing the testing wrong.
I checked this because I always REALLY liked the detune effect in Europa, but I could be using it differently than others.

For my test, reset Europa, use saw wave, Unison all knobs maxed, and I only tested 48 vs 96k sample rates. Did I miss something?

Are you testing the unison modifier and not the unison section like I wrote for the sample rate bug? The phasing attack sound was tested with two oscillators with unison and some detuning between the oscillators, you can hear the attack clearly on my recorded example. Also see the attached zip with example patches to avoid further confusion.

Thanks for the clarification, was suspecting I confused something!
As a fan of the Unison section I've not found myself wanting to use multiple oscillators and modifiers to get what I'm assuming is basically the same thing in the end? Or is there a particular advantage to using the approach you mention above? You've got me curious…

[Oquasec]

All synths are affected by sample rate directly.
Depends on how serum's waveforms are generated.
If there's anything else goin on. Like anti alias toggle or something.

[mjxl]

I took Subtractor ( yep, also made Serum mono )

Subtractor:

SAW1_Subtractor.png (97.52 KiB) Viewed 1542 times

Serum:

SAW2_Serum.png (122.38 KiB) Viewed 1542 times

As you can see, they are identical, besides a slightly different roll-off at the high end. (no filter (serum) vs fully opened LP12 on Subby, 48K samplerate)

[deeplink]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but there's something I am clueless about;

Why does the Europa wave tail off in the highs? This is especially evident with a low note Saw Wave.
Instruments like Thor and Synapse the Legend do not do this, and their saw waves look like saw waves.

The only way I can replicate the high frequency content in Europa is to enable the main Filter / or Distortion section and then completely over drive it.

But then it no longer looks a like Saw Wave but rather squarish.
However, if I use the Square Wave or Modifier section and clip it - there is also no high freqency content.

So why is there limited high frequency info in Europa's Saw Wave in comparison to Thor or The Legend?

I guess I mistakenly assume distortion is simply clipping the wave, but I guess I am wrong here?
Why should the Europa modifier or square wave result in less harmonic content than the Drive or Distortion section?

Europa Wave.png (43.77 KiB) Viewed 1260 times

Europa Wave Drive.png (20.12 KiB) Viewed 1260 times

Square Wave.png (16.71 KiB) Viewed 1260 times

[eXode]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but there's something I am clueless about;

Why does the Europa wave tail off in the highs? This is especially evident with a low note Saw Wave.
Instruments like Thor and Synapse the Legend do not do this, and their saw waves look like saw waves.

The only way I can replicate the high frequency content in Europa is to enable the main Filter / or Distortion section and then completely over drive it.

But then it no longer looks a like Saw Wave but rather squarish.
However, if I use the Square Wave or Modifier section and clip it - there is also no high freqency content.

So why is there limited high frequency info in Europa's Saw Wave in comparison to Thor or The Legend?

I guess I mistakenly assume distortion is simply clipping the wave, but I guess I am wrong here?
Why should the Europa modifier or square wave result in less harmonic content than the Drive or Distortion section?

Hi, this might be related to the oscillator design itself seeing that both Europa and Parsec seem to be additive based which would mean that there simply aren't any frequencies beyond a certain point. It's like there's a brickwall filter after you reach a certain frequency.

The main filter and distortion are applied after using traditional virtual analog DSP and might generate their own harmonics. They don't seem to be upsampled (or at least not by much) so they will generate aliasing in certain situations as well.

[selig]

I’ve always assumed it was a CPU saving move. You see it in Thor too, so it’s not an additive thing as far as I can tell.
That said, you would only potentially hear it if you don’t use any filtering or saturation or pretty much anything else (including other instruments). Meaning, if your music consists of raw waveforms you should be concerned. If not, they all sound pretty much the same IMO.
In fact, to most music fans anything electronic sounding is a just “synth”. Most folks would never recognize a square vs a saw, let along different saw waves from different synths!
As we train our ears, we can get all caught up in the little things we sometimes miss the big picture…that small differences will not affect the success or failure of your music in any way in my experience. If you have a memorable tune that evokes an emotional response, it could have been recorded with the cheapest OR the most expensive gear and no one would care.

I call this the music production paradox. Sound matters, and it doesn’t matter. Both are 100% true IMO!

[Mataya]

Does Legend or Thor sound better to you with this higher range in the upper part of the spectrum? Could be it's a design of Europa's oscillators to make them sound "warmer". But actually it doesn't make sense in a subtractive design. The whole point of it is to subtract or filter excess frequencies.
Would like to see Diva's saw oscillator plot.

M

[deeplink]

I guess it's noticeable when auditing synths in solo, but perhaps not as so in the context of a Mix.

What sparked this was just listening to The Legend and then deep diving in comparison to other synths.

What also boggles my mind is the one the comment - in the other thread linked within this one - is that the shape of the wave doesn't matter much, rather the harmonic content - as two completely different waves can in fact sound the same.

While this may true in some cases, when I compare the Europa ramp up vs ramp down, they sound completely different. Especially in the low end. Yet I cannot see a difference in the spectrum? What is going on here?

[avasopht]

Maybe it's just the sloping of the last partials.

That might give it a more natural sound.

How does this behaviour differ across notes and at different samplerates?

[selig]

I guess it's noticeable when auditing synths in solo, but perhaps not as so in the context of a Mix.

What sparked this was just listening to The Legend and then deep diving in comparison to other synths.

What also boggles my mind is the one the comment - in the other thread linked within this one - is that the shape of the wave doesn't matter much, rather the harmonic content - as two completely different waves can in fact sound the same.

While this may true in some cases, when I compare the Europa ramp up vs ramp down, they sound completely different. Especially in the low end. Yet I cannot see a difference in the spectrum? What is going on here?

I don't hear a difference, not when using the Saw-Triangle waveform comparing up saw to down saw. I set up a combinator to switch between them and I couldn't tell you which is which! There are a lot of examples of different visualizations that 'fail' under certain circumstances, such as two sounds with different waveforms but sound the same, or two sounds with the same peak level but vastly different perceived volumes, etc.
It's a reminder to use the right tool to show the data you actually need to see, which is often only going to happen with multiple tools/meters/visualizations. Each type of metering/display only shows you a part of the picture…

I agree it's hardly noticeable in a mix, I'm always very careful what I put in that top octave as there's no reason to have stuff up there you don't need (same as for the bottom octave).
Seems like others agree - Synths like HydraSynth added a "warm mode" (which looks similar to Thor) to appease users who complained about what was essentially the energy in that top octave.
If that top octave is really important, there are always tools to add some extra sizzle back to the top end.

[wereMole88]

So why is there limited high frequency
Square Wave.png

How do you get to see the wavefunction like that?

[deeplink]

So why is there limited high frequency
Square Wave.png

How do you get to see the wavefunction like that?

I was at work, don't have Reason installed on my work laptop for obvious reasons.

So instead, I opened up the Europa Web Version and used a spectrum analyzer chrome extension

[wereMole88]

Ah, nice - didn't even know a web version existed.

Is there a way to do that it in reason standalone?

I've tried a bit with spectrum analyzers including the stock one but never got such a nice freeze frame.

Part of it lacks and I have to hold the note.



This will do