Reason saw osc

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Billy+
Posts: 4157
Joined: 09 Dec 2016

12 Nov 2021

eXode wrote:
12 Nov 2021
As I have been pretty nerdy about these things in the past I've come to the conclusion that the shape of the saw on it's own doesn't really matter that much, it's everything else that matters. I.e. can you drive the mixer, filter, and amp in various ways? All those things on the way to the output will have an impact.

Eusti's comparison, while thorough, is also meaningless because each synth will shape the saw differently on the way to it's output so the "differences" you see is not necessarily because the saw is different.

Finally, regarding your first question. The Serum saw is nothing special. It's set to a 180 phase by default meaning that it actually starts from the middle (i.e. at the bottom). So basically it's just like this:


up_ramp.png
Thanks eXode :thumbs_up:

Any chance you can share some of your nerdy findings using Europa for any examples that us mear mortals might find helpful?

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eXode
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12 Nov 2021

I don't think I have anything specific to share at the moment other than the tip to experiment with the Shapers modifiers (i.e. Sine, Soft, and Hard Clip, etc) and also the filter drive. Those are great means to shape the basic waveforms.

I've attached a basic table that I did in NODE, inspired by the Take 5. It morphs from a Sine through a Saw to a Square/Pulse. You can load it into Europa, Serum, or any other synth that supports the Serum standard.
Attachments
eXode_Sin-Saw-Pulse.zip
(901.68 KiB) Downloaded 59 times

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Billy+
Posts: 4157
Joined: 09 Dec 2016

12 Nov 2021

eXode wrote:
12 Nov 2021
I don't think I have anything specific to share at the moment other than the tip to experiment with the Shapers modifiers (i.e. Sine, Soft, and Hard Clip, etc) and also the filter drive. Those are great means to shape the basic waveforms.

I've attached a basic table that I did in NODE, inspired by the Take 5. It morphs from a Sine through a Saw to a Square/Pulse. You can load it into Europa, Serum, or any other synth that supports the Serum standard.
Thanks again.

I will definitely check out node as well
https://www.sonicacademy.com/products/node
Last edited by Billy+ on 12 Nov 2021, edited 1 time in total.

splitpen
Posts: 141
Joined: 22 Mar 2017

12 Nov 2021

Billy+ wrote:
12 Nov 2021
So if it's the imperfections that add to the sound of the saw along with its sync drift and Europa is definitely going to be the better device for playing with this stuff what's missing is a way to create different saw wavetables does anyone know of any free software for producing wavetables based on saws that Europa will be happy with?

Or maybe a saw collection from different devices analog and digital, does RT have a wavetable collection?

Wasn't everyone always after the Juno supersaw sound?
Serum also has a wavetable editor, so does the free vital synth.
You can also load a wavetable in Audacity en zoom in until you see the samples, the you can use the pen tool to adjust and draw wavetables the oldshool way :D
Latest track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjzYHe3D8f8
Reasonstudios 11 Roland Quadcapture | AMD Ryzen 5900x|Elektron Analog Heat Mk2|Diy 3 way SB Acoustics/Scanspeak studiomonitors | AKG K702 | Key­sta­tion 61 MK3 |BCR2000 |X-Touch Ext | MP Midi

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utdgrant
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12 Nov 2021

Loque wrote:
12 Nov 2021
splitpen wrote:
12 Nov 2021


Thanks!

Bummer that the images are gone indeed.
When searched google, i found this post and discussion on reddit about some saw shapes/ synths.

Synth Comparison Vol. I - Saws

On this post there's some comparison between the shapes, first one shown is from Serum.



Isn't a super clean saw.
Thats really interesting. I noticed those "resonances" in the saw loop points in different synths, mostly in synths where i like the sound. I never really got it managed to recreate this in a pleasant way on a stright saw, but i learned that some small changes (resonances, rounding parts of the saw, phase differences, and so on) can have a huge impact on the sound.
Those 'resonances' or 'ringing' that you see in waveforms with sudden transitions (saw or pulse) might just be the result of a band-limited signal.

This whole video is a 'must watch' for anyone interested in digital audio, but specifically at this time-stamp, it shows the visual effect of band-limiting a signal with 'infinite' harmonics:

Digital Show & Tell with Monty Montgomery (17:20)
Grant Middleton (records as "Under the Dome")

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eXode
Posts: 838
Joined: 11 Feb 2015

12 Nov 2021

One thing that bothers me with Europa though is that the unison sections is kind of weak. I would have loved at least 8 voices, but preferably even more than that. And also the Normal detune mode is pretty weak compared to most other synths (including Thor). Don't know why they made it so weak. It's hard to get that great hard supersaw sound because of that.

splitpen
Posts: 141
Joined: 22 Mar 2017

12 Nov 2021

Totally agree Exode!
The unison in the mod does "a better job" in creating a more detuned effect, combined with finetune offset.. but stays behind compared to other synths. See for example oldschool gabber style detuned saw which isn't bad, but needs a little extra processing to get it fat sounding.
Attachments
Nineties Gabber saw.zip
(1.89 KiB) Downloaded 53 times
Latest track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjzYHe3D8f8
Reasonstudios 11 Roland Quadcapture | AMD Ryzen 5900x|Elektron Analog Heat Mk2|Diy 3 way SB Acoustics/Scanspeak studiomonitors | AKG K702 | Key­sta­tion 61 MK3 |BCR2000 |X-Touch Ext | MP Midi

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Billy+
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12 Nov 2021

So with all that said is there any technique to create a better super saw within reason using stock/suite available devices given that most edm tracks use a lot of saw based sounds ?

splitpen
Posts: 141
Joined: 22 Mar 2017

12 Nov 2021

Well.. that depends on the sound you're after..
So first of all its good to know and define "better sounding" , more width, more power, more analog, more detuned, more saws?
Latest track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjzYHe3D8f8
Reasonstudios 11 Roland Quadcapture | AMD Ryzen 5900x|Elektron Analog Heat Mk2|Diy 3 way SB Acoustics/Scanspeak studiomonitors | AKG K702 | Key­sta­tion 61 MK3 |BCR2000 |X-Touch Ext | MP Midi

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Billy+
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12 Nov 2021

splitpen wrote:
12 Nov 2021
Well.. that depends on the sound you're after..
So first of all its good to know and define "better sounding" , more width, more power, more analog, more detuned, more saws?
Yeah kinda realised the stupidity of question after I hit submit,

Let's start with the unison as an example as it already discussed. Could adding the unison half rack compensate for Europas lack or would routing out of Europa into thors audio in and using thors unison be a better option.

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QVprod
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12 Nov 2021

Billy+ wrote:
12 Nov 2021
splitpen wrote:
12 Nov 2021
Well.. that depends on the sound you're after..
So first of all its good to know and define "better sounding" , more width, more power, more analog, more detuned, more saws?
Yeah kinda realised the stupidity of question after I hit submit,

Let's start with the unison as an example as it already discussed. Could adding the unison half rack compensate for Europas lack or would routing out of Europa into thors audio in and using thors unison be a better option.
Thor doesn’t have a unison effect that can be used on the audio in. Only on its own multi osc. I also don't really like the stock half rack unison that much. You won't get a huge sound out of it. You can however stack synths in a combinator. I’ve seen this done with Thor and Subtractor in the past. One of the R12 sounds I made, Super Mega Sawraus (I know great name! :lol: ), I stacked multiple Europas and panned them.

Screen Shot 2021-11-12 at 1.53.38 PM.png
Screen Shot 2021-11-12 at 1.53.38 PM.png (482.88 KiB) Viewed 3272 times

splitpen
Posts: 141
Joined: 22 Mar 2017

12 Nov 2021

Billy+ wrote:
12 Nov 2021
splitpen wrote:
12 Nov 2021
Well.. that depends on the sound you're after..
So first of all its good to know and define "better sounding" , more width, more power, more analog, more detuned, more saws?
Yeah kinda realised the stupidity of question after I hit submit,

Let's start with the unison as an example as it already discussed. Could adding the unison half rack compensate for Europas lack or would routing out of Europa into thors audio in and using thors unison be a better option.
First of all, it isn't a stupid question don't be hard on yourself. Have you heard of or read the paper/ study about the jp8000 supersaw? If not, definitely would recommend it. Thought it was a study from Adam Szabo, a good read understanding the relation of the supersaw and the offset of the detuned oscs. If you try to follow and recreate it inside reason you will find out what all the osc and effects have to offer inside reason. A analyzer like span would help a lot in exploring the harmonics/ offset. The already mentioned 7 osc layer subtractor is one of them. Hint you can also use a cv routed to a knob to control the pitch of a osc.. The detuned curve from soft to heavy of the jp8000 is the most difficult... only way i could figure out was the use of a cv switcher + cv select program (free RE) to replicate the curve. In the end resulting with a big combi full of cables, gives a smile after the job is done but than shortly forget about it and realised that Vital and it's modulation curves made that job a lot easier inside one synth only. 😀
Latest track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjzYHe3D8f8
Reasonstudios 11 Roland Quadcapture | AMD Ryzen 5900x|Elektron Analog Heat Mk2|Diy 3 way SB Acoustics/Scanspeak studiomonitors | AKG K702 | Key­sta­tion 61 MK3 |BCR2000 |X-Touch Ext | MP Midi

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Billy+
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12 Nov 2021

Sorry all I've had my head in Europa...

Yes I think my brother got me to read through that paper on the jp but that was many years ago maybe it would be a good idea to read it again.

I'm definitely liking the ensemble modifier set to about 43 with a faded sync on M2 set to about 14 it's adding quite a bit to the saw-triangle.

I'm playing about with a future rave lead, not really supersaw but it's a saw based lead and as I don't normally patch from scratch it's been a fun learning day :lol: maybe I should post my attempt :?

Can't look at R12 CMBv2 as I don't have R12 anymore sorry QVProd.

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QVprod
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12 Nov 2021

Billy+ wrote:
12 Nov 2021

Can't look at R12 CMBv2 as I don't have R12 anymore sorry QVProd.
I remembered that you didn’t, which is why I posted the screenshot. Minus the combi customization, you can pull off what I did in either R10 or R11.

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Billy+
Posts: 4157
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12 Nov 2021

QVprod wrote:
12 Nov 2021
Billy+ wrote:
12 Nov 2021

Can't look at R12 CMBv2 as I don't have R12 anymore sorry QVProd.
I remembered that you didn’t, which is why I posted the screenshot. Minus the combi customization, you can pull off what I did in either R10 or R11.
Thanks

splitpen
Posts: 141
Joined: 22 Mar 2017

13 Nov 2021

Created a Shapov style saw / heavy reverbed pluck lead, see attachment (R11) Which is a type of sound i hear a lot in the future rave genre.
A cool little trick for the reverb of europa, output an lfo from the europa to the cv in a combi and modulate the reverb size with a couple percent.
This way the reverb will get a wider stereo effect and less metallic sounding. I use of the envelopes to control the amp gain, which gives you a more control over the shape of the sound then the ADSR.

Cool thing with this patch, if you play and hold a note, the other notes will get a full reverb effect so you can create a lot of movement/ less static sound.
Attachments
Shapov Saw lead.zip
(3.59 KiB) Downloaded 54 times
Latest track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjzYHe3D8f8
Reasonstudios 11 Roland Quadcapture | AMD Ryzen 5900x|Elektron Analog Heat Mk2|Diy 3 way SB Acoustics/Scanspeak studiomonitors | AKG K702 | Key­sta­tion 61 MK3 |BCR2000 |X-Touch Ext | MP Midi

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riemac
Posts: 571
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Location: Germany

13 Nov 2021

QVprod wrote:
12 Nov 2021

Thor doesn’t have a unison effect that can be used on the audio in. Only on its own multi osc. I also don't really like the stock half rack unison that much. You won't get a huge sound out of it. You can however stack synths in a combinator. I’ve seen this done with Thor and Subtractor in the past. One of the R12 sounds I made, Super Mega Sawraus (I know great name! :lol: ), I stacked multiple Europas and panned them.


Screen Shot 2021-11-12 at 1.53.38 PM.png
The problem with stacking Europas to get a supersaw is, that the phase of Europa's oscillators isn't random (even when the phase sync isn't activated). The phase of every Europa is triggered at the same position, which leads to a very annoying "ping" sound in the attack phase of every supersaw.
Reason Studios should really update Europa with a phase modifier and a supersaw unison with the exact detuning amounts of the JP-8000.

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eXode
Posts: 838
Joined: 11 Feb 2015

13 Nov 2021

riemac wrote:
13 Nov 2021
QVprod wrote:
12 Nov 2021

Thor doesn’t have a unison effect that can be used on the audio in. Only on its own multi osc. I also don't really like the stock half rack unison that much. You won't get a huge sound out of it. You can however stack synths in a combinator. I’ve seen this done with Thor and Subtractor in the past. One of the R12 sounds I made, Super Mega Sawraus (I know great name! :lol: ), I stacked multiple Europas and panned them.


Screen Shot 2021-11-12 at 1.53.38 PM.png
The problem with stacking Europas to get a supersaw is, that the phase of Europa's oscillators isn't random (even when the phase sync isn't activated). The phase of every Europa is triggered at the same position, which leads to a very annoying "ping" sound in the attack phase of every supersaw.
Reason Studios should really update Europa with a phase modifier and a supersaw unison with the exact detuning amounts of the JP-8000.
Yeah, this is something I've noticed too. Thor works better for building a supersaw style combinator atm.
Would be nice with up to 14 voices in the unison module and a new Supersaw detuning mode.

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eXode
Posts: 838
Joined: 11 Feb 2015

13 Nov 2021

splitpen wrote:
12 Nov 2021
Totally agree Exode!
The unison in the mod does "a better job" in creating a more detuned effect, combined with finetune offset.. but stays behind compared to other synths. See for example oldschool gabber style detuned saw which isn't bad, but needs a little extra processing to get it fat sounding.
The thing to be aware of with the unison mod though is that it changes the modulation rate if you switch sample rates. This is a bug that I've reported and that has not been fixed (wouldn't surprise me if they say that it's by design).

Basically try a simple supersaw patch with the Unison 7 modifier and then switch sample rate (i.e. from 44 to 88 kHz). This is a problem because it means that I cannot trust that what I hear is what every user will hear due to the possibility of users using different sample rates in the DAW. This has kept me from using the Unison modifier when designing presets.

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QVprod
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13 Nov 2021

riemac wrote:
13 Nov 2021
QVprod wrote:
12 Nov 2021

Thor doesn’t have a unison effect that can be used on the audio in. Only on its own multi osc. I also don't really like the stock half rack unison that much. You won't get a huge sound out of it. You can however stack synths in a combinator. I’ve seen this done with Thor and Subtractor in the past. One of the R12 sounds I made, Super Mega Sawraus (I know great name! :lol: ), I stacked multiple Europas and panned them.


Screen Shot 2021-11-12 at 1.53.38 PM.png
The problem with stacking Europas to get a supersaw is, that the phase of Europa's oscillators isn't random (even when the phase sync isn't activated). The phase of every Europa is triggered at the same position, which leads to a very annoying "ping" sound in the attack phase of every supersaw.
Reason Studios should really update Europa with a phase modifier and a supersaw unison with the exact detuning amounts of the JP-8000.
Didn’t notice a “ping” sound in the this patch, but I could’ve missed it perhaps. I also detuned each Europa from each other. I think you should be able to get around that however by varying attack or modulating the wavetable with a slightly different LFO on each.

I do agree that Thor is easier to get the supersaw sound with, but it’s harder to get the same fatness or width. It’s a bit of a trade off with each. Subtractor is likely the best option from an oscillator standpoint, but you’d need way too many of them. I think each gets you in the ballpark of what most people are looking for though.

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eXode
Posts: 838
Joined: 11 Feb 2015

13 Nov 2021

QVprod wrote:
13 Nov 2021
riemac wrote:
13 Nov 2021


The problem with stacking Europas to get a supersaw is, that the phase of Europa's oscillators isn't random (even when the phase sync isn't activated). The phase of every Europa is triggered at the same position, which leads to a very annoying "ping" sound in the attack phase of every supersaw.
Reason Studios should really update Europa with a phase modifier and a supersaw unison with the exact detuning amounts of the JP-8000.
Didn’t notice a “ping” sound in the this patch, but I could’ve missed it perhaps. I also detuned each Europa from each other. I think you should be able to get around that however by varying attack or modulating the wavetable with a slightly different LFO on each.

I do agree that Thor is easier to get the supersaw sound with, but it’s harder to get the same fatness or width. It’s a bit of a trade off with each. Subtractor is likely the best option from an oscillator standpoint, but you’d need way too many of them. I think each gets you in the ballpark of what most people are looking for though.
It's not a ping per se, but you get a phasing attack sound. I've noticed it between two oscillators in a single instance of Europa as well, when using the unison and detuning the oscillators against each other. It's a quirk that I dislike. You can hear it very clearly in the example below. This is with Phase Sync disabled.

Europa_Thor_Europa_Antidote.mp3
(543.78 KiB) Downloaded 57 times

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Billy+
Posts: 4157
Joined: 09 Dec 2016

13 Nov 2021

eXode wrote:
13 Nov 2021
It's not a ping per se, but you get a phasing attack sound. I've noticed it between two oscillators in a single instance of Europa as well, when using the unison and detuning the oscillators against each other. It's a quirk that I dislike. You can hear it very clearly in the example below. This is with Phase Sync disabled.
I'm wondering if this is what I was experiencing yesterday while playing about in Europa?

It was almost like I had another attack phase and I played about with everything I thought it might be but just couldn't get rid on it, in the end I just reset Europa and start creating again......

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Billy+
Posts: 4157
Joined: 09 Dec 2016

13 Nov 2021

splitpen wrote:
13 Nov 2021
Created a Shapov style saw / heavy reverbed pluck lead, see attachment (R11) Which is a type of sound i hear a lot in the future rave genre.
A cool little trick for the reverb of europa, output an lfo from the europa to the cv in a combi and modulate the reverb size with a couple percent.
This way the reverb will get a wider stereo effect and less metallic sounding. I use of the envelopes to control the amp gain, which gives you a more control over the shape of the sound then the ADSR.

Cool thing with this patch, if you play and hold a note, the other notes will get a full reverb effect so you can create a lot of movement/ less static sound.
Cool patch, how would you go about creating the "sidechain reverb" effect?

I've played with rv7000mk2 using cv on the gate trigger but it doesn't feel right...

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RandomNoise
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13 Nov 2021

eXode wrote:
12 Nov 2021
One thing that bothers me with Europa though is that the unison sections is kind of weak. I would have loved at least 8 voices, but preferably even more than that. And also the Normal detune mode is pretty weak compared to most other synths (including Thor). Don't know why they made it so weak. It's hard to get that great hard supersaw sound because of that.
I used to think the same thing but there is a hidden truth inside Europa about supersaw I just discovered recently!
Instead of using the main Unison, use Unison 7 from the modifier! Which is the same number of saw oscillators from Roland's famous JP800! Try it, it sounds great! You're welcome :D
Screen Shot 2021-11-13 at 20.59.45.png
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Billy+
Posts: 4157
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13 Nov 2021

simple example of future lead sound

futurelead.zip
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Screenshot 2021-11-13 140728.png
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