Complex-1 Retrig Issue

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Chizmata
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28 Oct 2021

Somehow the Retrig function in Complex-1 doesnt work as i want it to, it always plays legato (or maybe even something else, its really confusing), no matter the setting. if I set a very slow attack, a new key still always starts instantly, actually even when the previous key is released but still ringing out. any input on this? thx!

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huggermugger
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28 Oct 2021

It's behaving correctly. If you wait long enough for the sound to die away, you'll get the nice slow attack. But if you retrigger the next note before the sound has died away, the attack begins at the level where the sound is at that moment, it doesn't reset the level to 0.

The change of pitch itself sounds like an 'instant' attack, but don't be fooled. The level isn't jumping at that moment. Watch the meters. Or try repeating the same note. You'll see and hear that the level doesn't change on the new attack.

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Chizmata
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28 Oct 2021

huggermugger wrote:
28 Oct 2021
It's behaving correctly. If you wait long enough for the sound to die away, you'll get the nice slow attack. But if you retrigger the next note before the sound has died away, the attack begins at the level where the sound is at that moment, it doesn't reset the level to 0.

The change of pitch itself sounds like an 'instant' attack, but don't be fooled. The level isn't jumping at that moment. Watch the meters. Or try repeating the same note. You'll see and hear that the level doesn't change on the new attack.
Yes, the legato behaviour (Retrig buffon off) is correct. But i'd assume that if you turn on the "Retrig" button, the envelope should completely restart when you press another key while the first is still held, but it doesnt.

The button does have an effect though. when you press the second key while the first has reached the sustain phase, retrig button off (legato) will make it continue at that phase/volume like you described. retrig button on will make it jump to max volume though, probably the start of the decay phase. But it should make it jump to the start of the attack phase imo.

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RandomNoise
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31 Oct 2021

I think that Complex 1 is a paraphonic synth, therefore all the notes share the same trigger, so it is the correct behavior if im not wrong. You can see the difference between paraphonic and multitimbral (I think this is the opposite of paraphonic but might be wrong with the terms here..) when engaging with the Global button on Europa envelopes settings.

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Chizmata
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31 Oct 2021

RandomNoise wrote:
31 Oct 2021
I think that Complex 1 is a paraphonic synth, therefore all the notes share the same trigger, so it is the correct behavior if im not wrong. You can see the difference between paraphonic and multitimbral (I think this is the opposite of paraphonic but might be wrong with the terms here..) when engaging with the Global button on Europa envelopes settings.
i'll look into this, thx

AnotherMathias
Posts: 213
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31 Oct 2021

This is actually a pretty typical behavior from an old monophonic analog machine.

In retrig mode, any key down DOES trigger the envelope, but not with the attack phase necessarily starting at zero - it starts at whatever level the envelope currently is at.
So if you have a long release time ringing out, and a new note with a long attack time is played, the new note doesn't abruptly cut off and starts the sound at zero. It smoothy picks up where the release left off (say, at 50%), and builds up again from there.

Personally I find this to be desirable. It allows for some nice flowing playing techniques.

AnotherMathias
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31 Oct 2021

RandomNoise wrote:
31 Oct 2021
You can see the difference between paraphonic and multitimbral (I think this is the opposite of paraphonic but might be wrong with the terms here..) when engaging with the Global button on Europa envelopes settings.
Not quite - multitimbral is to be capable of playing many separate independent sound patches simultaneously, usually each controlled on its own MIDI channel.

The opposite of monophonic would be polyphonic, with paraphonic generally thought of as a hybrid between the two - the instrument can play multiple oscillator pitches, but they are all processed through a single voice of filter and envelopes (and sometimes a single VCA).

Duophonic, like the ARP Odyssey and Complex-1, is, I guess, a subset of paraphonic, but with only two oscillators operating independently, but again, sharing everything else.

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Chizmata
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31 Oct 2021

AnotherMathias wrote:
31 Oct 2021
This is actually a pretty typical behavior from an old monophonic analog machine.

In retrig mode, any key down DOES trigger the envelope, but not with the attack phase necessarily starting at zero - it starts at whatever level the envelope currently is at.
So if you have a long release time ringing out, and a new note with a long attack time is played, the new note doesn't abruptly cut off and starts the sound at zero. It smoothy picks up where the release left off (say, at 50%), and builds up again from there.

Personally I find this to be desirable. It allows for some nice flowing playing techniques.
yes, thats what i thought i was hearing too. thx for confirming it.

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selig
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01 Nov 2021

Chizmata wrote:
28 Oct 2021
Somehow the Retrig function in Complex-1 doesnt work as i want it to, it always plays legato (or maybe even something else, its really confusing), no matter the setting. if I set a very slow attack, a new key still always starts instantly, actually even when the previous key is released but still ringing out. any input on this? thx!
Out of curiosity, what synth DOES work this way? The way you describe it is called the "analog" envelope behavior, mainly because some digital synths started employing a RTZ retrig mode a while back. Some even have a switch for RTZ vs continuing from the current position, but I can't remember exactly where I saw that.
Like others here, I tend to prefer the "analog" retrig behavior, but ideally a switch would be included.
Selig Audio, LLC

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Chizmata
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01 Nov 2021

selig wrote:
01 Nov 2021
Chizmata wrote:
28 Oct 2021
Somehow the Retrig function in Complex-1 doesnt work as i want it to, it always plays legato (or maybe even something else, its really confusing), no matter the setting. if I set a very slow attack, a new key still always starts instantly, actually even when the previous key is released but still ringing out. any input on this? thx!
Out of curiosity, what synth DOES work this way? The way you describe it is called the "analog" envelope behavior, mainly because some digital synths started employing a RTZ retrig mode a while back. Some even have a switch for RTZ vs continuing from the current position, but I can't remember exactly where I saw that.
Like others here, I tend to prefer the "analog" retrig behavior, but ideally a switch would be included.
you mean with complete startover from the beginning of the envelope? well, pretty much all of them in retrig or mono retrig mode, thats why i'm so confused. i quickly rechecked Europa, Thor, Subtractor and all completely restart the envelope from zero. complex-1 is the only i know that starts the attack from the current value in retrig mode.

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selig
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01 Nov 2021

Chizmata wrote:
01 Nov 2021
selig wrote:
01 Nov 2021


Out of curiosity, what synth DOES work this way? The way you describe it is called the "analog" envelope behavior, mainly because some digital synths started employing a RTZ retrig mode a while back. Some even have a switch for RTZ vs continuing from the current position, but I can't remember exactly where I saw that.
Like others here, I tend to prefer the "analog" retrig behavior, but ideally a switch would be included.
you mean with complete startover from the beginning of the envelope? well, pretty much all of them in retrig or mono retrig mode, thats why i'm so confused. i quickly rechecked Europa, Thor, Subtractor and all completely restart the envelope from zero. complex-1 is the only i know that starts the attack from the current value in retrig mode.
Oh Crap, I wrote ReTrig when I meant to write Legato - total brain fart event detected…

When I did the same check I used Legato, doh…

But I wrote one part correctly - ideally you want to be able to choose which behavior is happening!
Selig Audio, LLC

AnotherMathias
Posts: 213
Joined: 29 Sep 2020

01 Nov 2021

I think it's mostly a matter of emulating analog monophonic behavior, and since all Reason synths EXCEPT Complex-1 can function polyphonically, it probably didn't make much sense to implement it for those.

But wait, there's one more purely monophonic Reason synth - Monotone!
Lo and behold, it also models the vintage retrig behavior!

Again I like it. Back in the days of non-velocity mono synths, this would give you some degree of dynamics control. With a long attack and release on the filter, if you play notes spaced far apart in time the filter would stay low and mellow, but if you play many notes in quick succession, the filter gets loud and and bright. the trick would even work on repeated presses of the same note.

I agree with Selig though, the ability to choose one behavior or another would be nice, at least on something as versatile as Complex-1. I'm trying to think of a way to trick it to totally reset the envelope with new notes, but I haven't come up with anything yet.

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Chizmata
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02 Nov 2021

AnotherMathias wrote:
01 Nov 2021
I think it's mostly a matter of emulating analog monophonic behavior, and since all Reason synths EXCEPT Complex-1 can function polyphonically, it probably didn't make much sense to implement it for those.

But wait, there's one more purely monophonic Reason synth - Monotone!
Lo and behold, it also models the vintage retrig behavior!

Again I like it. Back in the days of non-velocity mono synths, this would give you some degree of dynamics control. With a long attack and release on the filter, if you play notes spaced far apart in time the filter would stay low and mellow, but if you play many notes in quick succession, the filter gets loud and and bright. the trick would even work on repeated presses of the same note.

I agree with Selig though, the ability to choose one behavior or another would be nice, at least on something as versatile as Complex-1. I'm trying to think of a way to trick it to totally reset the envelope with new notes, but I haven't come up with anything yet.
thx for the great input! one more thing though, complex-1 has the same behaviour in duophonic mode. oh and one more synth that behaves the classic analogue way is kong synth kick, i always wondered why kicks in quick succesion get louder, i think this thread explains it.

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