Gain staging in Reason question

[NMN]

I'm working on gain staging a song at the moment and wondered if there was really any difference between adjusting the volume of the Rack Instrument vs adjusting the Gain (edit: not volume) on the mixer. It's all digital so I figure there isn't but I thought I'd ask.

[plaamook]

I think it’s more to do with signal chains.
Example, you may want to automate vol before reverb so the verb rings out.

Otherwise, not as far as I know. I do both interchangeably.

[deeplink]

No difference at all.

[Benedict]

Not as such no as level is level is...

However, the idea is that that at a) the entry point to your Insert FX and at b) the Fader that you have consistent levels. The level generally considered The Tao of levels in Reason circles is -12dB at the Fader as the sound comes up before Mixing levels.

The best way to ensure this is at the Instrument or Out of any effects like Scream4 between Thor and the Channel Input. Then to adjust using the Gain knob tippy top of the SSL Channel to get those levels. Keep adjusting after any changes that occur when adding effects or processes using those output Gains on things like Compressors. The idea of this is that you can A/B changes without being fooled by the lure of level ie, loud sounds sexy.

Once everything is laid out and behaving nicely, you can start to adjust Faders to make the mix. Seeing I tend to set my levels at the synth or out of processors before/within the Inserts, my basic mix is often handled at that point or with a bit of adjustment of the Gain knob. This means that it is entirely possible to get to the end of a mix without changing Fader levels at all. Which lets you use them to be "trims" for any Automation.

As time goes by and you have more experience, it is easy to start to relax that a bit but I will advise sticking with such an approach until you really don't need it (which is probably not next week).

[Djstarski]

I'm working on gain staging a song at the moment and wondered if there was really any difference between adjusting the volume of the Rack Instrument vs adjusting the volume on the mixer. It's all digital so I figure there isn't but I thought I'd ask.

No , there is no difference .

[Djstarski]

I'm working on gain staging a song at the moment and wondered if there was really any difference between adjusting the volume of the Rack Instrument vs adjusting the volume on the mixer. It's all digital so I figure there isn't but I thought I'd ask.

No , there is no difference . That's if you mean the input gain at the top of the mixer channel .

[huggermugger]

There is a difference. Whether it's noticeable or problematic depends on the exact situation.
1. A volume change on the instrument affects the gain structure of everything down the line - the insert FX and the Mixer's channel strip (dynamics and EQ). It also affects the mixer's Sends. This can change the way the FX devices respond, and potentially cause clipping too. For example, raise the level of Subtractor by 6dB, and its channel compressor reacts differently*. Virtual effects, especially analog-modeled ones, often have a non-linear response to level. Raise the input level, the effect device doesn't just produce a louder sound, it produces a different sound.
2. If you turn up the level on the mixer (turning it up on the Mix Channel in the Rack is the same thing), you're not affecting the gain structure. You're simply turning up the level of the finished product from all that processing. The gain structure between source (the device) to final destination (the channel fader) remains unchanged.

*This is one reason that some producers claim (wrongly) that Normalizing damages the sound. They don't get that if the source level changes, the gain structure changes too.

[Billy+]

Gain staging in about the levels going throughout your chain of devices not the overall volume of the channel / mix.

Gainstage : A sound(synth/drums/piano/etc) output at -12 going into an fx should output at-12 and every time you add another item to the chain you should be looking to correct the output to the same level as the input using the output of the added processing.

Mix balance : You are then at the mixer going to use the volume fader to balance the elements against each other while trying to maintain suitable headroom for all the elements.

Two separate points of creating a mixdown.

[selig]

I'm working on gain staging a song at the moment and wondered if there was really any difference between adjusting the volume of the Rack Instrument vs adjusting the volume on the mixer. It's all digital so I figure there isn't but I thought I'd ask.

You're going to have to be more specific since there is more than one gain stage on each mixer channel.
You really don't have to gain stage as such in a digital mixer because each gain stage has exactly the same (huge) amount of headroom, unlike analog where each gain stage could have different noise floor and clip point.

With that in mind, these days I prefer to use a consistent PEAK level for all tracks. I emphasize PEAK because you can't do this using VU meters (like the channel meters, sadly). Important details: must use peak meters, must keep consistent peak level between all devices at all points/gain stages in the signal path, choose a peak reference level that works for you.

I use -12 dBFS peak level because it's the standard in Reason and it works with my average track count. If you routinely clip your mixes, use a lower number. If you routinely work with very small track counts (vocal/guitar demos, for example) you may choose higher levels.
There are three goals with this approach: avoid clipping audio when recording (by recording with the highest peaks hitting around -12 dBFS), leave headroom in the mix bus (you can't add a bunch of 0 dBFS files together and not expect the results to be over 0 dBFS), and always already know the level of every individual audio signal in your mixer (because it's peaking around -12 dBFS - always!). The first point is self explanatory, the second keeps you from chasing the master fader when adding tracks into the mix, and the third point lets you work quicker because you don't need to spend a lot of time setting up compressors etc because the levels coming into them are always the same. Make sense?

So yes, in this case while it is true "it's all digital" and you have a wide range of acceptable levels, you'll make your life a little easier if you are consistent (true for a lot of things in life). Spontaneity is great in lots of things in life, but if your mix bus spontaneously goes up to +100 dB it's a bad thing…

[Timmy Crowne]

Great answers here. I would only add that applying distortion will change perceived loudness even if the peak levels in/out remain constant. If a transient snare sample that peaks at -12dB is saturated and the output is calibrated to -12dB, the result will sound louder because distortion generally raises the average signal level relative to the peak. Just something to watch out for.

[EnochLight]

IMHO, gain staging is completely overrated and not really necessary in Reason, however; it's a great habit to get into - especially if you ever think you might find yourself in front of an actual mixing board IRL.

[Benedict]

Gain Staging is not what it needed to be seeing there is no signal to noise issue in digital (at least not once the signal is there) but it is always good practice to keep things reasonably even, esp before anything that adds (or might add) drive.

@NMN listening to your Cylindrical Wall album. Very nice material. I'd love to mix this sort of material if you ever want another take.

[sdst]

I heard that in the digital it doesn't matter anymore

but I also heard that the million of vintage plugins are made to work like the hardware with specific levels

like working in the old days, that must be taken into consideration

[Ottostrom]

I heard that in the digital it doesn't matter anymore

but I also heard that the million of vintage plugins are made to work like the hardware with specific levels

like working in the old days, that must be taken into consideration

It's not just about plugins emulating hardware. Some audio processing techniques are just inherently non-linear because that is how they work (compression, distortion e.g.) and those will behave differently depending on the input level.

[NMN]

There is a difference. Whether it's noticeable or problematic depends on the exact situation.
1. A volume change on the instrument affects the gain structure of everything down the line - the insert FX and the Mixer's channel strip (dynamics and EQ). It also affects the mixer's Sends. This can change the way the FX devices respond, and potentially cause clipping too. For example, raise the level of Subtractor by 6dB, and its channel compressor reacts differently*. Virtual effects, especially analog-modeled ones, often have a non-linear response to level. Raise the input level, the effect device doesn't just produce a louder sound, it produces a different sound.
2. If you turn up the level on the mixer (turning it up on the Mix Channel in the Rack is the same thing), you're not affecting the gain structure. You're simply turning up the level of the finished product from all that processing. The gain structure between source (the device) to final destination (the channel fader) remains unchanged.

*This is one reason that some producers claim (wrongly) that Normalizing damages the sound. They don't get that if the source level changes, the gain structure changes too.

Thanks for the reply. I wondered if any of the effects produced an analog-type response so this explanation makes sense. This confirms to me that although we are dealing with a virtual analog environment in Reason, manipulating the volume on the Reason instrument can result in a different level/sound response after being sent through certain effects. I sometimes want to change the overall volume of an instrument during the last phases of mixing and I have found it easier to just turn the volume knob on the instrument down or up a bit after I've applied automation. I will make sure to use the Gain knob on the mixer instead.

[DJMaytag]

There is a difference. Whether it's noticeable or problematic depends on the exact situation.
1. A volume change on the instrument affects the gain structure of everything down the line - the insert FX and the Mixer's channel strip (dynamics and EQ). It also affects the mixer's Sends. This can change the way the FX devices respond, and potentially cause clipping too. For example, raise the level of Subtractor by 6dB, and its channel compressor reacts differently*. Virtual effects, especially analog-modeled ones, often have a non-linear response to level. Raise the input level, the effect device doesn't just produce a louder sound, it produces a different sound.
2. If you turn up the level on the mixer (turning it up on the Mix Channel in the Rack is the same thing), you're not affecting the gain structure. You're simply turning up the level of the finished product from all that processing. The gain structure between source (the device) to final destination (the channel fader) remains unchanged.

*This is one reason that some producers claim (wrongly) that Normalizing damages the sound. They don't get that if the source level changes, the gain structure changes too.

You're right if you're talking about instrument volume level vs channel fader. I'm not sure if that what he was referring to though. I read It as instrument volume level vs gain at the top of the channel (ie the input gain control to the rest of the channel strip). In that scenario, it shouldn't matter.

[NMN]

You're right if you're talking about instrument volume level vs channel fader. I'm not sure if that what he was referring to though. I read It as instrument volume level vs gain at the top of the channel (ie the input gain control to the rest of the channel strip). In that scenario, it shouldn't matter.

My bad...I should have said "vs adjusting the Gain on the mixer", not volume. I edited the original question.

[Ottostrom]

Thanks for the reply. I wondered if any of the effects produced an analog-type response so this explanation makes sense. This confirms to me that although we are dealing with a virtual analog environment in Reason, manipulating the volume on the Reason instrument can result in a different level/sound response after being sent through certain effects. I sometimes want to change the overall volume of an instrument during the last phases of mixing and I have found it easier to just turn the volume knob on the instrument down or up a bit after I've applied automation. I will make sure to use the Gain knob on the mixer instead.

The Gain knob at the top of the mixer changes the volume BEFORE it goes to the insert fx, so this results in the same problem as adjusting the volume directly on the instrument itself. What you should do is to add a dedicated volume device (like Selig Gain) at the end of your insert fx chain and do all your volume automation on that device instead. This leaves your mixer faders open for adjustments throughout the mixing process.

[huggermugger]

You're right if you're talking about instrument volume level vs channel fader. I'm not sure if that what he was referring to though. I read It as instrument volume level vs gain at the top of the channel (ie the input gain control to the rest of the channel strip). In that scenario, it shouldn't matter.

My bad...I should have said "vs adjusting the Gain on the mixer", not volume. I edited the original question.

This is exactly the problem I'm talking about. If you change the gain at the top of the mixer, you're changing the entire gain structure of the channel. It's no different than turning up the source synth. When you change the amount of signal that feeds the channel, all the stages in the channel are affected.

Instrument > Gain > Dynamics > EQ > Insert FX > Channel Fader.

[huggermugger]

Huggermugger wrote:
There is a difference. Whether it's noticeable or problematic depends on the exact situation.


Thanks for the reply. I wondered if any of the effects produced an analog-type response so this explanation makes sense. This confirms to me that although we are dealing with a virtual analog environment in Reason, manipulating the volume on the Reason instrument can result in a different level/sound response after being sent through certain effects. I sometimes want to change the overall volume of an instrument during the last phases of mixing and I have found it easier to just turn the volume knob on the instrument down or up a bit after I've applied automation. I will make sure to use the Gain knob on the mixer instead.

Many effects plugins behave in an 'analog' fashion, in terms of introducing non-linearities depending on incoming level - it's part of their design. When you read that a device is modelled on some classic vintage effect, this is partly what they mean.

Some effects simply respond differently to different incoming levels, like a compressor. A compressor's entire process is based on the Threshold, which is where you set the incoming level that will trigger the compressor. If you change the incoming level, more or less of the incoming sound exceeds the threshold and gets affected by the compressor.

[selig]

Thanks for the reply. I wondered if any of the effects produced an analog-type response so this explanation makes sense. This confirms to me that although we are dealing with a virtual analog environment in Reason, manipulating the volume on the Reason instrument can result in a different level/sound response after being sent through certain effects. I sometimes want to change the overall volume of an instrument during the last phases of mixing and I have found it easier to just turn the volume knob on the instrument down or up a bit after I've applied automation. I will make sure to use the Gain knob on the mixer instead.

The Gain knob at the top of the mixer changes the volume BEFORE it goes to the insert fx, so this results in the same problem as adjusting the volume directly on the instrument itself. What you should do is to add a dedicated volume device (like Selig Gain) at the end of your insert fx chain and do all your volume automation on that device instead. This leaves your mixer faders open for adjustments throughout the mixing process.

But this only works if inserts are post dynamics (luckily the default). If you change this routing you’re back to the same problem as before. but the “fix” is to simply set levels (which is technically NOT “again staging”) BEFORE you add processing.

[DJMaytag]

Instrument > Gain > Dynamics > EQ > Insert FX > Channel Fader.

It won’t matter if your instrument is set to 0dBFS and the gain is set to -10dBFS, or if the instrument is set to -10dBFS and the gain set to 0dBFS. The resulting level that hits the REST of the signal chain is exactly the same, and won’t affect your dynamics & inserts.

[selig]

There is a difference. Whether it's noticeable or problematic depends on the exact situation.
1. A volume change on the instrument affects the gain structure of everything down the line - the insert FX and the Mixer's channel strip (dynamics and EQ). It also affects the mixer's Sends. This can change the way the FX devices respond, and potentially cause clipping too. For example, raise the level of Subtractor by 6dB, and its channel compressor reacts differently*. Virtual effects, especially analog-modeled ones, often have a non-linear response to level. Raise the input level, the effect device doesn't just produce a louder sound, it produces a different sound.
2. If you turn up the level on the mixer (turning it up on the Mix Channel in the Rack is the same thing), you're not affecting the gain structure. You're simply turning up the level of the finished product from all that processing. The gain structure between source (the device) to final destination (the channel fader) remains unchanged.

*This is one reason that some producers claim (wrongly) that Normalizing damages the sound. They don't get that if the source level changes, the gain structure changes too.

Thanks for the reply. I wondered if any of the effects produced an analog-type response so this explanation makes sense. This confirms to me that although we are dealing with a virtual analog environment in Reason, manipulating the volume on the Reason instrument can result in a different level/sound response after being sent through certain effects. I sometimes want to change the overall volume of an instrument during the last phases of mixing and I have found it easier to just turn the volume knob on the instrument down or up a bit after I've applied automation. I will make sure to use the Gain knob on the mixer instead.

Neither is ideal IMO, using the fader is always the “safest” and most logical place to adjust levels/automate. That is literally why it’s there…

I don’t understand why folks don’t just raise/lower all the automation values for faders using automation? sure, a dedicated “trim” function would make this simpler, but I don’t understand using one control for automation and another for trimming, especially considering the possibility of ANY a suggested solutions causing trouble if followed by non-linear processing. Both approaches require a bit of hoop jumping, but I would always prefer one source per parameter over two…bottom line, there is only one place you can adjust channel level and be 100% sure it’s not going to cause unexpected problems.

Having said that, be aware this same “problem” exists if you move a drum fader if it feeds a bus with compression/saturation etc. or if you have any non-linear mix bus processing and move ANY fader in the mixer. That’s why it;s easier to add dynamics etc later in the mix process rather than sooner, so you’ll be making much smaller fader moves which won’t tend to cause as many side-effects.

[selig]

Many effects plugins behave in an 'analog' fashion, in terms of introducing non-linearities depending on incoming level - it's part of their design. When you read that a device is modelled on some classic vintage effect, this is partly what they mean.

I wonder (to all) what are the most common such effects used in Reason? I’d like to test how much of an effect actually occurs with gain changes on typical analog modeling plugins used by most folks in Reason.

[mcatalao]

I'm working on gain staging a song at the moment and wondered if there was really any difference between adjusting the volume of the Rack Instrument vs adjusting the Gain (edit: not volume) on the mixer. It's all digital so I figure there isn't but I thought I'd ask.

There is an important difference, gain in the mixer, defines the level that enters in your effects chain, the mixer eq, comp etc. So gain is pre everything, the fader is post everything. And the gain in a device, well it depends on if it is an input gain or an output gain. But that's imho the main difference. So gain will have an effect on what a compressor does, because of the threshold. Imagine you have a threshold of -10 and a signal clips at -13, if you want to compress 1,5 db, you could set up the threshold to -13 and a ration of 1:2. Or you could add 6 db gain, and keep the ratio at -10.

That being said, I prefer to use gain to set an initial level for each device in the mix, and control the final level with a selig gain in the end of my chain. I rarely touch the device's input and output levels and use selig gain for this. Usually I'll set the initial gain so that each channel peaks at -12 to -18 DBFS and work my mix from there. I like to mix clean and I try to have a cohesive clean sound from the beginning.