Interview with Ernst Nathorst-Böös 2003 - everything has happened as predicted

[selig]

I don't find as many of the demands concerning the sequencer to have been addressed- even by 2003 standards they were already behind the curve with the sequencer (MIDI sequencing on a computer was almost 20 years old at THAT point). Players don't address markers/locators, grouped editing, auto punch, pre/post roll, editing automation over the waveform graphic, being able to edit MIDI without being locked inside the track editor, magnetic grid, smart tools, clip grouping/ungrouping, direct editing, non-destructive quantize etc, clip launching, and so on.
I feel it wasn't the Reason "tangents" (audio, VSTs, MIDI out) that negatively affected the product, but rather the forays into fields outside of Reason, with Balance, Allihoopa, apps, and even VSTs as examples of things that added virtually nothing to the Reason experience but have to have taken resources away from the progress on the main app.

[Italophile]

the forays into fields outside of Reason, with Balance, Allihoopa, apps

Agreed. And in the rush to pile blame on Verdane people overlook the fact that all these distractions happened whilst Ernst was captain of the ship.

[selig]

Agreed. And in the rush to pile blame on Verdane people overlook the fact that all these distractions happened whilst Ernst was captain of the ship.

And all the "Reason is Doomed" talk started LONG before Verdane as well.

[strat1980]

I find, for example, that most of the demands concerning the sequencer have been implemented. Just not in the sequencer itself but via the Drum Sequencer, Scales and Chord and the Poly Step Sequencer. But somehow this was not understood by many.

Alot of people would disagree i think. And even if true. You still need a sequencer to make a song with reason. Having some sequencer features outsourced into REs does not mean they are not needed in the sequencer itself.

I'm just saying that they've always had the rack in focus. Of course it would be nice to have the Fruity Loops sequencer in Reason. But they are focusing on their unique selling point. And with that in mind, they try to do things the best they can. There are many who claim that they would ignore all requests. The sequencer features are just my example that they don't do that. They just implement things in a Reason-like way.

[AttenuationHz]

...

Anyways, my point here is that it is interesting to think about. Just like VCV Rack today, or anything similar. Those are just instruments and/or plugins and because they aren't DAWs, people celebrate what is great about them and nobody is asking for track freeze, track folders, MPE support, etc. for VCV Rack.

VCV Rack works quite well with MPE. There are 3rd party plugins that deal with track folders in their own way by either jumping to specific coordinates or being able to save a bunch of modules and quickly access or recall them, it has not gotten far along to be able to freeze tracks to optimise performance as the performance is a bit of a beast as is however you can record what is played in VCV to a module and play that back so it kind of deals with track freeze in its own way. The evolving nature of patches in VCV and the lack of a built in sequencer mean track freezing in the tradition sense is not really a thing that would be requested as it is a totally different animal but as above a 3rd party developer found a way to quickly access multiple modules and save or recall them.

[QVprod]

the forays into fields outside of Reason, with Balance, Allihoopa, apps

Agreed. And in the rush to pile blame on Verdane people overlook the fact that all these distractions happened whilst Ernst was captain of the ship.

This as well! Before Verdane, people just badmouthed Ernst. Since he’s not at the helm anymore there’s just a new “villain” to blame now.

[Carpainter]

What we'd rather do is keep making instruments that can satisfy our users' appetite.

This was a brilliant strategy until they started hiding them behind the Rack Extension paywall. There were damn near 10 years worth of upgrades between Thor and Europa that didn't feature a single new synth. I know because I sat those years out. That's when they lost me as a loyal fan.

[joeyluck]

Hey I miss Allihoopa! It was one of the best experiences I have had interacting with Reason community and it was fun collaborating. The comments and chats were all about music. It was sad to see it shutdown after it had gotten such great features. Aside from comments, we then had chat, we had devs joining like Korg and Moog, so it was also a diverse community of not just Reason users. It was a great and innovative idea and I do miss it.

[Shadoww]

would we be free of all the expectations and haters today?

You shouldn't conflate peoples valid criticism around the product as it is offered today with "haters". What a stupid post for a mod... we'd certainly be free of your banal responses to every viewpoint you take personally had it not gone the road most traveled

Ernst was only pointing out the obvious. It's common sense that once you open the "pandora's box" of alternative features you inherently subscribe to the liabilities associated with that development and keeping it relevant to the context it serves. They bought the farm. That's not to say what comes with that territory is a negative per say, just something Ernst clearly didn't envision for the development agenda. I'd wager hindsight reflects RS reaped more capital off expanding the features into DAW territory and extended the life of the product as well as the user base, but yes, with that comes the need to appease everyone's "whims" as it relates to those features. We all know that is impossible; not just for RS.

As a consumer you can only make requests and provide feedback (critical or not) and hope some of your personal needs are met. The decision as to whether the product satisfies those needs is up to you. Everyone has their opinion which they're entitled to, but there is no need to demonize a large demographic of a vocal majority by calling them "haters".

I wish the mods would read rule one of the forum and follow it like the rest of us.
1. No personal attacks and/or name calling.

[joeyluck]

...

Anyways, my point here is that it is interesting to think about. Just like VCV Rack today, or anything similar. Those are just instruments and/or plugins and because they aren't DAWs, people celebrate what is great about them and nobody is asking for track freeze, track folders, MPE support, etc. for VCV Rack.

VCV Rack works quite well with MPE. There are 3rd party plugins that deal with track folders in their own way by either jumping to specific coordinates or being able to save a bunch of modules and quickly access or recall them, it has not gotten far along to be able to freeze tracks to optimise performance as the performance is a bit of a beast as is however you can record what is played in VCV to a module and play that back so it kind of deals with track freeze in its own way. The evolving nature of patches in VCV and the lack of a built in sequencer mean track freezing in the tradition sense is not really a thing that would be requested as it is a totally different animal but as above a 3rd party developer found a way to quickly access multiple modules and save or recall them.

I gave some pretty poor examples of things it has...in a different mindset lol. I just mean to say, people aren't asking for DAW features.

[electrofux]

This is a really good point I never thought about

Totally. Not to mention R11!

R11 was one of the biggest updates to the sequencer, yet people spread disinformation about Reason ditching the sequencer when R11 was released. R11 was the most attention the sequencer has gotten since pitch edit IMO. Crossfades, automation curves, improved individual track zoom, multi-note pencil, absolute snap, visual feedback on piano roll keyboard, octave shift shortcut, etc. And those were all things introduced in 11.0! It's like being in the twilight zone. We should maybe have a Twitter style disclaimer here to slap on posts.

It still was a miniscule sequencer update thats why it is not praised. It makes up a handfull points in the patch notes. I mean look at the feature suggestion forum it is bursting with sequencer requests for years. And btw the zoom is still hard to use.
The list is long and you dont get that worked out with a few points checked once every 5 years.

I feel it wasn't the Reason "tangents" (audio, VSTs, MIDI out) that negatively affected the product, but rather the forays into fields outside of Reason, with Balance, Allihoopa, apps, and even VSTs as examples of things that added virtually nothing to the Reason experience but have to have taken resources away from the progress on the main app.

And totally this!

[joeyluck]

Totally. Not to mention R11!

R11 was one of the biggest updates to the sequencer, yet people spread disinformation about Reason ditching the sequencer when R11 was released. R11 was the most attention the sequencer has gotten since pitch edit IMO. Crossfades, automation curves, improved individual track zoom, multi-note pencil, absolute snap, visual feedback on piano roll keyboard, octave shift shortcut, etc. And those were all things introduced in 11.0! It's like being in the twilight zone. We should maybe have a Twitter style disclaimer here to slap on posts.

It still was a miniscule sequencer update thats why it is not praised. It makes up a handfull points in the patch notes. I mean look at the feature suggestion forum it is bursting with sequencer requests for years. And btw the zoom is still hard to use.
The list is long and you dont get that worked out with a few points checked once every 5 years.

I feel it wasn't the Reason "tangents" (audio, VSTs, MIDI out) that negatively affected the product, but rather the forays into fields outside of Reason, with Balance, Allihoopa, apps, and even VSTs as examples of things that added virtually nothing to the Reason experience but have to have taken resources away from the progress on the main app.

And totally this!

Oh yeah, I mean Reason could certainly use much more attention in the sequencer. And hopefully that will be the case as mentioned in the roadmap. My point is just that in comparison to past versions of Reason, R11 was one of the biggest updates to the sequencer. So the misinformation of them ditching the sequencer when they added more features than they had in many many years, is absurd.

I had the thought AFTER that, that maybe they would then ditch the sequencer lol. For them to add all those features and people go around saying they did nothing to the sequencer, if I were in charge, I'd be like, "All right screw the sequencer...they aren't paying attention anyway. It's a waste of our time..."

[electrofux]

It still was a miniscule sequencer update thats why it is not praised. It makes up a handfull points in the patch notes. I mean look at the feature suggestion forum it is bursting with sequencer requests for years. And btw the zoom is still hard to use.
The list is long and you dont get that worked out with a few points checked once every 5 years.



And totally this!

Oh yeah, I mean Reason could certainly use much more attention in the sequencer. And hopefully that will be the case as mentioned in the roadmap. My point is just that in comparison to past versions of Reason, R11 was one of the biggest updates to the sequencer. So the misinformation of them ditching the sequencer when they added more features than they had in many many years, is absurd.

I had the thought AFTER that, that maybe they would then ditch the sequencer lol. For them to add all those features and people go around saying they did nothing to the sequencer, if I were in charge, I'd be like, "All right screw the sequencer...they aren't paying attention anyway. It's a waste of our time..."

People were waiting on a sequencer update as their biggest need for years, not 5 points ticked off a 100+ point long list.
In the end they were just too slow in the past. I mean they have ticked off most big things in the last 10 years and with more speed in the last 5. This time ticking off 2 biggies (hires and combi2). But it is taking so much time. And THE sequencer update happens to be last in the list of biggies to them it seems.

[QVprod]

What we'd rather do is keep making instruments that can satisfy our users' appetite.

This was a brilliant strategy until they started hiding them behind the Rack Extension paywall. There were damn near 10 years worth of upgrades between Thor and Europa that didn't feature a single new synth. I know because I sat those years out. That's when they lost me as a loyal fan.

To be fair. They only made one synth in that time span (4 upgrades; 6-9), Parsec. Two if you count Layers. All of the upgrades were basically DAW features ironically enough.

I think Rack Extensions was an excellent idea that just wasn’t executed well. Had there been no serious limitations 3rd parties likely would’ve jumped on it, because it seems everyone at least looked at it. Then they could’ve kept making the stock devices while having the 3rd party options. That’s almost what they have going with R+ now.

[AttenuationHz]

VCV Rack works quite well with MPE. There are 3rd party plugins that deal with track folders in their own way by either jumping to specific coordinates or being able to save a bunch of modules and quickly access or recall them, it has not gotten far along to be able to freeze tracks to optimise performance as the performance is a bit of a beast as is however you can record what is played in VCV to a module and play that back so it kind of deals with track freeze in its own way. The evolving nature of patches in VCV and the lack of a built in sequencer mean track freezing in the tradition sense is not really a thing that would be requested as it is a totally different animal but as above a 3rd party developer found a way to quickly access multiple modules and save or recall them.

I gave some pretty poor examples of things it has...in a different mindset lol. I just mean to say, people aren't asking for DAW features.

They do be but, a built in sequencer is/was requested a lot, until the dev shut the idea down. Even then there are other dev's that made full blown sequencers. Things aren't requested constantly because VCV Rack is literally 1 developer, he can't fulfil every request and is pretty stern when it comes to requests, did a pretty great job with giving it native MIDI support with the last major release. As soon as it released as a VST instrument (when ready) it will be a game changer. The community there know there are other developers that can fulfil their requests as alternatives and know better to ask for ill thought out feature requests.

[strat1980]

I think one problem with all this discussion is that we all make music at very different "levels". Accordingly, the expectations of a DAW are also different. For me, for example, the sequencer features in Reason are absolutely sufficient. I am rather overwhelmed with more. Maybe in the future we have to say goodbye to demanding absolutely everything from a daw. Maybe the future lies in more specialized programs. Too many features can overwhelm and discourage beginners. Don't forget that the simplicity of Reason has enabled many people to get into electronic music production. Maybe these are the same people who are calling for more complexity today.

[Carpainter]

To be fair. They only made one synth in that time span (4 upgrades; 6-9), Parsec. Two if you count Layers. All of the upgrades were basically DAW features ironically enough.

I think Rack Extensions was an excellent idea that just wasn’t executed well. Had there been no serious limitations 3rd parties likely would’ve jumped on it, because it seems everyone at least looked at it. Then they could’ve kept making the stock devices while having the 3rd party options. That’s almost what they have going with R+ now.

There was also PX7. That's the one I remember most because it struck me as wrong that it wasn't the main selling point of whatever version of Reason they were hawking at the time.

Edit: I forgot that they yanked it from the Shop when Algoritm came out. That's actually really messed up because there could theoretically come a time when it ceases to work and your only recourse will be to buy Algoritm.

[plaamook]

the forays into fields outside of Reason, with Balance, Allihoopa, apps

Agreed. And in the rush to pile blame on Verdane people overlook the fact that all these distractions happened whilst Ernst was captain of the ship.

That deserves to be a sticky around here

[Carpainter]

Agreed. And in the rush to pile blame on Verdane people overlook the fact that all these distractions happened whilst Ernst was captain of the ship.

That deserves to be a sticky around here

Was he running the ship when they implemented Codemeter? Because that was the start of the shark-jumping.

[AttenuationHz]

I think one problem with all this discussion is that we all make music at very different "levels". Accordingly, the expectations of a DAW are also different. For me, for example, the sequencer features in Reason are absolutely sufficient. I am rather overwhelmed with more. Maybe in the future we have to say goodbye to demanding absolutely everything from a daw. Maybe the future lies in more specialized programs. Too many features can overwhelm and discourage beginners. Don't forget that the simplicity of Reason has enabled many people to get into electronic music production. Maybe these are the same people who are calling for more complexity today.

The sequencer features are sufficient up to a certain point or level as you put it, the lack of features compared to other DAWS makes different levels of workflow inefficient though. What features one user might not need to use, for example markers, there is no loss in your workflow not using even if they are available to use but someone else that would use them hasn't got the luxury of that choice because they don't exists, if markers make someone's workflow easier then the obvious thing is to enable them to use them. Track colours are completely necessary for mine and others workflow but the default is the same track colour for every track this is so you have the choice to use a track colour or not.

[Proboscis]

And all the "Reason is Doomed" talk started LONG before Verdane as well.

But this time it really IS doomed !

Seriously though, there's no reason why anyone should have this view - less so now. There's NO WAY an investor takeover firm are going to allow an acquisition to lose money.

And, how many modern flagship consumer DAWs have shut up shop in the past 20 years ? Sonar arguably still exists as the re-branded Cakewalk, and even some of the early names are still floating around, much to my surprise (Soundforge, Acid Pro)

[PropitiousME]

You shouldn't conflate peoples valid criticism around the product as it is offered today with "haters". What a stupid post for a mod... we'd certainly be free of your banal responses to every viewpoint you take personally had it not gone the road most traveled

Ernst was only pointing out the obvious. It's common sense that once you open the "pandora's box" of alternative features you inherently subscribe to the liabilities associated with that development and keeping it relevant to the context it serves. They bought the farm. That's not to say what comes with that territory is a negative per say, just something Ernst clearly didn't envision for the development agenda. I'd wager hindsight reflects RS reaped more capital off expanding the features into DAW territory and extended the life of the product as well as the user base, but yes, with that comes the need to appease everyone's "whims" as it relates to those features. We all know that is impossible; not just for RS.

As a consumer you can only make requests and provide feedback (critical or not) and hope some of your personal needs are met. The decision as to whether the product satisfies those needs is up to you. Everyone has their opinion which they're entitled to, but there is no need to demonize a large demographic of a vocal majority by calling them "haters".

I am not classifying everybody with criticisms as haters. You are making that assumption. I am thinking of only those who are very dramatic and who say some pretty awful things. Any yes, often you'll find everybody is either a fanboy or a hater and there is no in between apparently. You seem to take issue with anybody who likes R12 and the direction RS is taking.

I think Reason desperately needs to have MPE support. In my very strong opinion, a DAW today can be without it. Especially one with such a strong focus on the instrument side of things. Even without the DAW, the RRP should also be MPE compatible. I also think Reason should have video support. I make the point over and over that so many people today are composing for picture and not just writing music for albums, etc. For some reason people think that video support means hollywood, big budget films. But similarly to how people used to always categorize Reason as a DAW for electronic music and hip-hop only (maybe some still do), I feel RS kind of keeps out many users that compose for media by not simply having basic video sync support. Point being is I have my criticisms, but you won't see me acting like it's the end of the world.

Anyways, my point here is that it is interesting to think about. Just like VCV Rack today, or anything similar. Those are just instruments and/or plugins and because they aren't DAWs, people celebrate what is great about them and nobody is asking for track freeze, track folders, MPE support, etc. for VCV Rack.

I don't beg to differ with everyone that likes Reason 12, mostly just you based on your historical posting given your moderation title along with those that think charging top-tier pricing for perp licenses is justified (not saying you agree on the price hike, but in general). I think you're underlying intent is good, but your delivery is often lacking for your title. Probably best we just get that out of the way, it's an opinion. Doesn't mean we can't continue to keep it civil. Everyone's definition of value is different and I don't shy from calling it how I see it. I accept the fact that comes off abrasive sometimes. Probably *rubs* some of the more sensitive types, but I don't see a point in beating around the bush and I'm not here to make friends with folks that don't like me or impress mods, etc. I'm just one more voice among a sea of many. Many of us are middle age if not older. Many others are adolescents that show a weakness for ad hominem attacks or a lack of appreciation for how valuable time can be as we get older (comes with age, it's a given). Those variables can affect feedback disparity tremendously depending on your own real world experiences in large scale business initiatives. RS needs to filter out the noise, demographics of who exactly their target audience is, and heed the requirements to get there without destroying customer retention. That's their obligation, they take people's money.

I've stated I appreciate the core product and what it offers. I wouldn't be here posting if I didn't. That said, I'm not going to pat RS on the back for the recent string of obvious, shall we call them "missed opportunities" so as to be perceived as less abrasive? On the contrary, there are some people here ruffling feathers of the more practical business minded folk by making RS out to be some kind of victim in all this when in reality they're an enterprising business endeavor that took up third party funding from loan shark investor(s) and willing consumers (now in the form of SaaS). Buy the ticket, take the ride. They have obligations as a result of setting the bar so damn high. Criticism in that climate is gonna come given said territory (harsh or not). Especially when you start changing the fundamentals of business revenue AND you under deliver after a ~2 year development window. How much worse could it get? Well, we found out didn't we? Charge more for what has largely been perceived as "missed opportunities"!

I propose a great deal of the conflict may have been somewhat mitigated had they just left what should have been FREE updates FREE (RE: HD graphics, improved browser, finishing VST implementation / VST3). Doesn't matter how large those initiatives were. Push the 12 upgrade and properly flesh out a release worthy of a $200 upgrade fee if that's your plan (Mimic is cool, but still missing key functionality and can't stand on it's own). Charging for future promises that don't even carry a guarantee and the completion of previously half-baked updates from years ago (RE: VST integration) isn't gonna facilitate customer retention either. That's more akin to the games crowd funded game developers play. Hit and run money making tactics. Business is often anything but fair. It's a harsh and unforgiving realm wherein exists a constant need to satisfy an insatiable consumer base jaded by an instant gratification culture that will chew you up and spit you out if you don't navigate those hurdles with at least some sense of business tact (not sure how else to best articulate this societal effect, don't take it personal). So anyone acting appalled by the massive scale negative reaction to the studio's decisions lately shouldn't be surprised IMO.

We're now in the "hold the business's feet to the fire phase" to see if we can get said missed opportunities reconciled. Realists aren't interested in excuses at this point and I'm sure VC isn't either as it comes to their ROI on a 2017 investment... RS can speak for themselves and in some cases they have, but whether that has resulted in bettering their situation due to it manifesting from a perceived sense of damage control vs objective transparency is up to the consumer to infer. They have some serious deliverables to meet before they'll earn some peoples trust again, that much is clear. This is not some minority disposition or hyperbolic stance I'm speaking to. It's coming from a series of fundamental changes to the business structure. They knew this was gonna make waves, believe that. I expect more noise in coming weeks / months. I suspect the circus may still have a few peanuts up it's proverbial "sleeve" and I'm sure some on here will feel compelled to editorialize / spin it in RS's favor. If they start missing anything on their tentative timeline it'll be more of the same critical feedback as the exodus of long term users continues (to which I can only assume they know or believe will be churned out by their new R+ SaaS).

Have a good weekend all, sorry, this one got long.

[moalla]

I think one problem with all this discussion is that we all make music at very different "levels". Accordingly, the expectations of a DAW are also different. For me, for example, the sequencer features in Reason are absolutely sufficient. I am rather overwhelmed with more. Maybe in the future we have to say goodbye to demanding absolutely everything from a daw. Maybe the future lies in more specialized programs. Too many features can overwhelm and discourage beginners. Don't forget that the simplicity of Reason has enabled many people to get into electronic music production. Maybe these are the same people who are calling for more complexity today.

The sequencer features are sufficient up to a certain point or level as you put it, the lack of features compared to other DAWS makes different levels of workflow inefficient though. What features one user might not need to use, for example markers, there is no loss in your workflow not using even if they are available to use but someone else that would use them hasn't got the luxury of that choice because they don't exists, if markers make someone's workflow easier then the obvious thing is to enable them to use them. Track colours are completely necessary for mine and others workflow but the default is the same track colour for every track this is so you have the choice to use a track colour or not.

I was quiet scared by the mass of updates that some people want for the sequencer and reason at all, where will bring a big amount of bugs, that at the end the sequencer becomes a overloaded monster with capabilities most user doesn’t need and reason crash’s every third session!

The thing is the rack iss still with it’s open character and some big developers of rack extensions the best open modular space you could buy, I used for example today the CV Suite by rob papen and it’s amazing, so at the and what’s really needed are Auto loop for the midi recording (alter Loop record take) smpte sync for external video players, track folders with a clear tree system to find samples ( but please take the time for this job you need, simplicity iss the best) and MPE .

Four new features, only this four or three without track folders and reason at the point were it is nearly perfect as it is, so that’s my opinion ass musician and modular frickeling guy in sound.
So and maybe one of this features called MPE will come with the VST3 update

The only sad thing now is, the times where a lot of presents of free rack extensions where given to the user base is over and the price for our music toy becomes expensive:(

And i would say there are people how want or need KI generated/ing vibes/playertools and musicians how think wath the f..k stay away with this doomsday music overkill of cheap plastic silicon patterns.... so yeah their hip hoppers, EDM people’s and that’s the main crowd of reason the classical musicians and producers are the much smaller group and that’s the thing of RS marketing and where RS will grow.., gn8

[avasopht]

Edit: I forgot that they yanked it from the Shop when Algoritm came out. That's actually really messed up because there could theoretically come a time when it ceases to work and your only recourse will be to buy Algoritm.

It will never stop working.

There is 0 reason for it to stop working.

[AttenuationHz]

The sequencer features are sufficient up to a certain point or level as you put it, the lack of features compared to other DAWS makes different levels of workflow inefficient though. What features one user might not need to use, for example markers, there is no loss in your workflow not using even if they are available to use but someone else that would use them hasn't got the luxury of that choice because they don't exists, if markers make someone's workflow easier then the obvious thing is to enable them to use them. Track colours are completely necessary for mine and others workflow but the default is the same track colour for every track this is so you have the choice to use a track colour or not.

I was quiet scared by the mass of updates that some people want for the sequencer and reason at all, where will bring a big amount of bugs, that at the end the sequencer becomes a overloaded monster with capabilities most user doesn’t need and reason crash’s every third session!

The thing is the rack iss still with it’s open character and some big developers of rack extensions the best open modular space you could buy, I used for example today the CV Suite by rob papen and it’s amazing, so at the and what’s really needed are Auto loop for the midi recording (alter Loop record take) smpte sync for external video players, track folders with a clear tree system to find samples ( but please take the time for this job you need, simplicity iss the best) and MPE .

Four new features, only this four or three without track folders and reason at the point were it is nearly perfect as it is, so that’s my opinion ass musician and modular frickeling guy in sound.
So and maybe one of this features called MPE will come with the VST3 update

The only sad thing now is, the times where a lot of presents of free rack extensions where given to the user base is over and the price for our music toy becomes expensive:(

I don't know if that is supposed to be an insult or typo