Will you upgrade @199 for future releases

This forum is for discussing Reason. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.

How many major versions will you skip?

Poll ended at 17 Nov 2021

Upgrade no matter what
7
5%
Undecided it depends what will be in a major version
59
40%
Skip 1 release
5
3%
Skip 2 or more
7
5%
Reason is no longer going to be purchased
23
15%
Already upgraded to 12, Upgrade no matter what
5
3%
Already upgraded to 12, Undecided it depends what will be in a major version
28
19%
Already upgraded to 12, Skip next release
4
3%
Already upgraded to 12, Skip 2 or more
5
3%
Already upgraded to 12, Reason is no longer going to be purchased
6
4%
 
Total votes: 149
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AttenuationHz
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19 Sep 2021

joeyluck wrote:
19 Sep 2021
I've always felt like DAW value in general is incredibly disproportionate from other software. Not that I ever wanted to he charged more lol.

A DAW is the software that I use to create my songs and sound design. It is the the software that hosts all these other plugins; plugins that I pay as much and more for.

Reason gets a new version roughly every two years. I always looked at the $129 and thought, "How do they stay afloat with that?" I look at what else I bought throughout the year and it's crazy what I've paid to other devs for plugins that cost as much and more just per plugin.

Right now all my value is placed on Mimic and the new Combinator. I think that is hands down worth $129. Depending on further development of the Combinator and Mimic, it might be worth $199 IMO.

Of course I'd pay $199 for an upgrade if I felt it added that value. I'd pay $499 for an upgrade if I felt it added that much value (although that would be difficult for sure to add that much value and communicate that much value).

I have high hopes for R12. I hope they can live up to it. R13 out of the gate at $199 will have to deliver.
I've said it in the other poll thread but it worth repeating here. $199 only reinforces the issue to skip versions, a lower price increase is adding a better profit margin as most would probably update if features added are worth it at a responsible increase because of the out of sale price, the out of sale price of $159 is a win - win it would mean $30 more profit, when on sale that is $20 more profit compared to no increase in price. To top HD graphics and the new combinator they'll have to do something equally if not more impressive for $199 / $139, which puts massive amounts of pressure on developers that can only mean diminishing returns for a release, I hope I'm wrong... With a 30% sale for $199 that is $10 more profit nothing changed in terms of profit margin $129 / $90 >> $159 / $110 >> $199 / $139. Most likely everyone will wait for that sale price unless of course RS are going to reduce the sale price which would be another disaster waiting to happen, a half price sale would mean still no change in profit margin $10. It has been the way for most people, I think. That being - a release would need justification to upgrade to, however if there is a roadmap and we know what is in a release beforehand even an extended roadmap that bleeds into more releases would be a good incentive to upgrade, users can make the choice to upgrade more versions well in advanced of having to put money by in some cases. Not to generalise but an increase of $30 is 2-4 hours works for the hobbyist; $70 is half to a full days work, the later being the hardest pill to swallow. The potential Reason 12 has to be worth $199 would make sense if the release was complete. It is true that the combinator could sell like hotcakes if it was a standalone RE or the only thing in the release at $129 same with HD for some people, it would be an instant upgrade for most if the release was completed in terms of features added.
It is not too much of an ask for people or things to be the best version of itself!

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stratatonic
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19 Sep 2021

AttenuationHz wrote:
19 Sep 2021

With a 30% sale for $199 that is $10 more profit nothing changed in terms of profit margin $129 / $90 >> $159 / $110 >> $199 / $139. Most likely everyone will wait for that sale price unless of course RS are going to reduce the sale price which would be another disaster waiting to happen, a half price sale would mean still no change in profit margin $10.
The market is saturated with software devices. Everyone is looking for "a deal" these days.

30% off of software these days is lame.
I currently won't even consider ANYTHING unless it's at least 50% off. And more so, because I have to deal with currency conversion shenanigans by various companies.

RS will now do half off sales in the future just like everyone else. Because everyone else has a 50% deal at some point in a year. 30% won't raise anyone's eyebrows.

50% of 199 gives Reason Studios 100
instead of
30% of 129 at 90

They'll make more money doing it this way in the future.

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AttenuationHz
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19 Sep 2021

stratatonic wrote:
19 Sep 2021
AttenuationHz wrote:
19 Sep 2021

With a 30% sale for $199 that is $10 more profit nothing changed in terms of profit margin $129 / $90 >> $159 / $110 >> $199 / $139. Most likely everyone will wait for that sale price unless of course RS are going to reduce the sale price which would be another disaster waiting to happen, a half price sale would mean still no change in profit margin $10.
The market is saturated with software devices. Everyone is looking for "a deal" these days.

30% off of software these days is lame.
I currently won't even consider ANYTHING unless it's at least 50% off. And more so, because I have to deal with currency conversion shenanigans by various companies.

RS will now do half off sales in the future just like everyone else. Because everyone else has a 50% deal at some point in a year. 30% won't raise anyone's eyebrows.

50% of 199 gives Reason Studios 100
instead of
30% of 129 at 90

They'll make more money doing it this way in the future.
Yeah but it still $10, whereas there is a guarantee for $20 or $30 profit with $159 and it is cheaper for us users. It is better for us @$199 in the long run but only with 30% off which is still guaranteed $10 more profit, $199 only decreases the potential to increase profits. I'd be happier increasing their profit margin if it means more feature packed release which also guarantees sales. That's if I'm not being too naïve in believing that's the whole point of the price increase. Everyone with sense in this world is waiting for the imaginary "sales bargain" doesn't really exist when things are priced for a sale.
It is not too much of an ask for people or things to be the best version of itself!

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plaamook
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19 Sep 2021

Interesting point. Priced for sales.
Thus far I’ve never bothered w reason updates. I just buy em from the props site. Support the mission, get an upgrade.
This one is the first time I went out and picked it up cheap. Partially because I’m cheesed off about the quality etc but also I guess it’s a statement. 199 is over the top so I figure I better get used to bargain hunting.
Which is a shame and a pain in the ass but there you have it.
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electrofux
Posts: 863
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

19 Sep 2021

In the end it must be worth 199. I pay that amount for a good update that affects my needs. But i wonder which single update has actually been worth 199 to me in the last years. For me probably not a single one. They neither were packed with stuff nor did the single big addition be the one i wanted be it hires or vst. I already skipped 11 until suite was offered. Thats why the probability is very high that i skip one in the future. 199 is way too steep and looks greedy. In fact i cannot state a single company that raised the price for a product by >50% without adding any more value. But as stated elsewhere imho it is so high in order to make perpetual licenses obsolete wihtout having to say we dont support them anymore and break their word. I mean its so obvious. They seem to have lost their compass in all these business models and shit - its a mess.
Last edited by electrofux on 19 Sep 2021, edited 1 time in total.

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joeyluck
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19 Sep 2021

There's several versions I would've paid $199 for.

I think Reason upgrades from 2-4 was pretty solid at $129.

I think I paid $169 for the Reason 5 + Record upgrade? I would've certainly paid $199 for that. That was everything in Reason 5 plus audio recording. That was huge.

Interesting that R6 was pay what you will...and with R6.5 and the intro of RE, that was incredibly exciting in the Reason world. There's no way I would've passed that up. I wasted so many trials on so many REs in the beginning lol. It was very fun. I had upgraded to Reason 5 + Record within the grace period to get R6 for free, so no PWYW for me. I guess I knowingly upgraded for $169 instead of waiting to upgrade for $129, so that was me showing what I thought of the value I guess. I also needed it for projects.

Reason 7 with MIDI Out, buses, spectrum EQ, REX loop bounce, I would've paid $199 for that.

Reason 9 and pitch edit was fantastic. And the intro of players was exciting. I maybe would've paid $199 for that. But I'm on the fence if I would've been as happy in the long run. I got plenty of use out of pitch edit for it to pay for itself, but I thought third party players would be a part of Reason 9... third party devs didn't get access to create players until Reason 10.

The rest feel like solid $129 upgrades. I don't feel like any upgrade was worth less than $129.

electrofux
Posts: 863
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

19 Sep 2021

5 and 6/6.5 for sure. Players i might have been in too. Of the rest there would have been skips in between for sure where i haven't skipped any i think so far.

But as i said before i am not really angry about the 199 itself (even though ANY company would have rightfully a hard time to justify a 50% price increase for no added value lol - thats some marketing desaster again) but that it looks so bluntly that they try to force + on us when they made it look as if they were cool with people not wanting/jumping on it.

There have been streams and videos when R+ was introduced that all is fine, people can go subscription and those who dont want to can still get their perpetual license and btw the perpetual license update gets raised by over 50%. No no they didnt say that. They left that out intentionally because it was too hot to deliver in one go it seems. I feel bullshitted on and i dont like that, really.

They could have been honest and say, look in future we offer a subscription that gives you everything we do and a ton of monthly patches, we still offer perpetual licenses but they will be more expensive because we step up our development so the updates get better and we havn't had any price increase for years. 12 is going to be offered with the old price and subsequent updates get raised by X% (though 50% IS hard to communicate because the jump is simply too high). And you will see they will be worth it. Just take a look at the roadmap for the next three months so you can expect alot more after a year or so. But how they did it communicationwise was AGAIN total crap.
Last edited by electrofux on 19 Sep 2021, edited 1 time in total.

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Arrant
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19 Sep 2021

I’ll bite if we’re playing this game. I haven’t checked the version history but the value for me often seems to come quite late in a version lifecycle when I think about it.
6.5 I would pay for (REs). Same with 9.5 was it with VST? Then 10.3 with the performance improvements.
I would be tempted to pay 199 for those.
But not 6.0, 9.0 or 10.0.
Hopefully 12.x will be worth it at some point too.

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joeyluck
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19 Sep 2021

I'm curious if RS can share the largest price paid during R6 PWYW. I'm sure at least one person paid a crazy amount.

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EpiGenetik
Posts: 410
Joined: 19 Jan 2015
Location: Glasgow, EU

19 Sep 2021

AttenuationHz wrote:
19 Sep 2021
EpiGenetik wrote:
19 Sep 2021


Exactly why it should be included - the relevance of the poll itself needs to be guaged.
You're welcome to start your own poll to gauge how many people will move to subscriptions because of the new pricing. However I suspect results will be similar to previous poll's from the past year regarding subscriptions.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7522846
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7521534
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7522298 - RRP but would affect perpetual license
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7521443
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7521548
Why, the goalposts have just shifted substantially?

How much credibility would you give those polls?

avasopht
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Posts: 3932
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19 Sep 2021

EpiGenetik wrote:
19 Sep 2021
Why, the goalposts have just shifted substantially?
How so?

They could increase the upgrade price to $1,000 if they wanted. That wouldn't make the subscription any more appealing to me. In fact, it would make it less appealing, because now it means that if I want to stop subscribing, I'd still have to fork out $1,000.

People don't like being milked.

And they won't subscribe begrudgingly.

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AttenuationHz
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Location: Back of the Rack-1

19 Sep 2021

avasopht wrote:
19 Sep 2021
EpiGenetik wrote:
19 Sep 2021
Why, the goalposts have just shifted substantially?
How so?

They could increase the upgrade price to $1,000 if they wanted. That wouldn't make the subscription any more appealing to me. In fact, it would make it less appealing, because now it means that if I want to stop subscribing, I'd still have to fork out $1,000.

People don't like being milked.

And they won't subscribe begrudgingly.
This. Those polls will still be credible for years to come, anyone who had an issue with subscription does so because of what they mean for users. As soon as everyone is locked in there is no point of having perpetual licenses so they would be no more. Subscription and perpetual will need each other to keep the price of both down. Otherwise because you're locked in you're like an addict looking for a fix, you will do anything to get that fix, that fix is paying more money to use the service, luckily there is other alternatives that RS have no control of so that comes into the equation also. Slowly but surely the subscription will increase in price but the incentive to do so is not there yet because perpetual and the shear amount of users that base their decisions on principles are keeping that increase at bay.
It is not too much of an ask for people or things to be the best version of itself!

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moofi
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20 Sep 2021

Sure, your situation and values regarding Reason might differ, like Reason is basically the only DAW I have been using since Version 1 though I own an earlier version Life aswell.

I´m just saying it can happen and it did happen to me last year with the beginning of Corona. I wasn´t even able to maintain an educational 25 Euro monthly subscription with Adobe anymore (I had an educational one because I was teaching prior). Gladly I still had/have CS6 to work with. Same with Autodesk where the yearly amount was something like 1150 Euros per year for the subscription to an after all perpetual 3dsmax license. Again, being able to keep that last version from that "old" subscripttion model I can still work with it.

By now Autodesk is subscription-only with close to 1700 Euros per year (250 Euros monthly) hence there is no perpetual license available at all, just like Adobe.
Saying if I didn´t have a perpetual license contract from back in the days that lasted years longer compared to new customers who can already for several years by now exclusively pay for subscription, I would have been locked out of the 3D software I work with since 2007 by then.
The situaton with it is bad enough as is because I can only work with the latest bought version I got and would only be able to work with a newer one if I ever subscribed to that ~1700 Euro subscription and lose it again if I wasn´t able to pay it.
I know, the amount of money in that case is a different one, still the same principle applies even with lower amounts like shown.

The calculation made is based on "no-ifs" at all and thatfor leaving the biggest issue out if it comes to that situation. I´m not saying any of those scenarios would necessarily be the case, then if it does happen...well. Potentially losing something like 8 years of musical work even if I had enough money but for mentioned other reasons and alike I just couldn´t continue using the software would make me pretty sad actually because it´s aswell like a musical diary, connected with memories. Whensoever some time has past I like to go back and check or even work on the music I created years ago, like I´m currently, amongst new ones, working on songs from 2013/2014.

In addition, having to worry about anything like that potentially happening while being on subscription can put stress on people. Due to the experiences made, I know what it can feel like. I prefer to be able to relax in that regard.

Sure, if at some point I wouldn´t be able to work with that latest perpetual license I have anymore because everything else has developed beyond being able to run that version, I most likely would be migrating at some point, then I could at least have avoided it the longest way possible which could be quite long because if you still have a computer with an older OS at that point the compatibiliy with a newer OS doesn´t matter that much.

Also besides any of that, with a perpetual license I´m always in the position to decide wether I want to spend money on the software and would still be able to keep working with it if I decided not to, like I did over the years because the newest version I had before Reason 12 was Reason 7 from 2014.

Saying, in terms of calculation, I merely paid 129 Euros for the last 5 version all together while you would have paid 1400 Euros by now if subscription was already existent at that time, just being able to use the software in case you didn´t necessarily need the new features or are even unhappy with some from version 8-11 like it was the case here.
I know, I wouldn´t know what the price of either the perpetual license nor the subscription would have been if subscription was already in place for that timespan. Yet, if I potentially skip another two versions from now on and buy an upgrade with the release of the third upgrade in possibly around 4 years of time after just having upgraded for now I would merely pay 200 Euros for an update while you would already have potentially paid like 800 Euros.

Then I got 200+ Rackextensions I can continue using regardless of paying. Some extra cost on top of the monthly subscription amount when money is scarce in case you would like to use Rackextensions aswell making it more than just 20 Euros a month. A naked version of Reason just isn´t comparable here. Granted, shorttermwise the subscription packages, especially the biggest one, is pretty attractive. In the long run they get more and more expensive because you don´t own them afterwards once the actual buying cost is reached even if it takes a few years. Additionally I did buy for example Softube´s FET at 99 Euros when it had been released. Now it´s 229 Euros and like that already much more is being substracted from the subscription package amount than the 99 Euros I paid.

Being able to decide when and if you are paying for the software you use genrally has the advantage of being able to adjust to individual circumstances. Like I did have the money at the time I bought all of those Rack Extensions, no problem. Currently I´m less liquid, no problem. I can continue working with the licenses I bought in 2012-2014.

tc13 wrote:
19 Sep 2021
A lot of "What if" that... cant really do any sort of calculations with that many unknown quantities....

And if Reason for some reason become unusable in the future I just have to make do with Mixbus or some of the other DAWs I have, really not a big deal.

And if my finances ever go so bad that 20 dollars/euros a month would make or break it then Reason probably is the last of my worries

So no I didn't leave anything important out!
moofi wrote:
19 Sep 2021
You left the most important part out of the calculation. The amount of value a perpetual license has for you in a situation where you would like to use or even need the software and you just can´t because you might be in a situation where you cannot afford a subscription. Imagine being locked out of Reason over a longer period, when you cannot access it because the financial situation doesn´t allow you to. Especially imagine that after 8 years.

Even without that financial situation Reason might develope into a direction you really don´t want it to. With a perpetual license I can always say, "no, I´m not buying the new version" and keep on making music with the version I like. With subscription you would then be forced to work with that version you don´t really like and it´s succesors you might not really like either or even less. Even if you have a perpetual license prior to your point of using subscription 8 years ago you can go back on, basically the editability or even just ability of opening the work you did over those 8 years is gone.

What if the company is sold to another daw developer that integrates only parts of it in their product with a crossgrade offer that let´s you merely obtain the other DAW for a lower price but not open your songs you had been working on over the years?

I feel like these or alike possible scenarios often are being left out of the calculation as the usual calculation takes merely the effective money to be payed over time into account.



avasopht
Competition Winner
Posts: 3932
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

20 Sep 2021

The difference between Adobe and Reason Studios is that the market for professional or semi professional users it's much larger for Adobe.

Ditto for Autodesk.

Most DAW users are hobbyists. This is a money sink.

When I was freelancing, subscribing to Adobe made complete sense. I didn't use it often, but the few gigs I did need it for made it pay for itself.

Music making is recreational, and I always have the option of paying my guitar, digital piano or using old DAW licensees.

Basically there is much less intrinsic pressure to upgrade or even stick with a DAW.

Professionals needs to consider compatibility. But most Reason users aren't professional.

The price increase is best viewed in isolation. It's unlikely to make R+ seem more valuable.

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plaamook
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Location: Bajo del mar...

20 Sep 2021

I think a lot of the perceived rip off w 199 is that Reason is playing a huge game of catch up as a Daw. So every time they add this or that feature that other daws have had for ages, trying to working it into the current structure, people complain because regardless of the work involved in this great overhaul it’s seen as something we somehow should have had already. For free or just standard. And of course future gens will have it standard. But it’s not an insult or a rip off to try to pull this off.
We all wanted Reason to grow up. And that’s not a magic trick.
Perpetual Reason 12 Beta Tester :reason:

You can check out my music here.
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Or here.
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EpiGenetik
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20 Sep 2021

AttenuationHz wrote:
19 Sep 2021
This. Those polls will still be credible for years to come,
Agree to disagree. I say they have little to no relevance or credibility. The biggest response represents a tiny minority of the Reason user base, and the others are of no consequence whatsoever due to being of such insignificant size.

There is also nothing by way of anti-trolling mechanisms on this forum like there was with the PUF. There is no way of guaranteeing that a significant number of the respondents even own a legitimate Reason license. Take a trip down memory lane and think back to the anarchy in the General Forum on props.se all those years ago.

RT is an extremely poor choice of platform for gathering such information, and with no disrespect meant to the RT community, these polls should be treated as a bit of fun, and nothing more. Under no circumstances should anyone take this poll, or any other, seriously.

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