New Pricing for Reason 12 - Upgrades now 199 from 129

[jamespember]

This for me is more important to hear than the roadmap that was posted last week. That said, I think the increase to $199 is going to be a huge mistake. $169 might be the highest increase that would be tolerable by many, and I don't think anyone would bat an eye at $149. The jump to $199 feels pretty extreme, and could cause a LOT more people to alternate upgrade cycles, especially if there's not a ton of new offerings in each upgraded version. Please pass along a note to seriously reconsider the amount of the upgrade increase, not the idea of an increase.

OK, but why you didn't just communicate this as clear as with this post 2 years ago?

I wasn't at this company 2 years ago.

[jamespember]

I think that's ultimately pretty fair feedback - this company has tried its hand at a bunch of different ventures (social, hardware, mobile) over the years, none of which have really stuck. Leaving aside the issue of whether companies should try continue to innovate and invest in burgeoning areas (that's truly another topic for another day), you can call me biased but I have a slightly more optimistic take on where we are at now. Let me explain.

When Niklas took over the CEO role in 2019, the company stopped focusing on anything that is not related to Reason itself. Allihoopa was shut down, development was stopped on the mobile apps, we stopped investing in other potential platforms like the web and all the internal resources and focus shifted back onto Reason and how to setup Reason for the future - and make it the best and most creative music making experience out there.

This wasn't going to happen overnight though, it had to happen in stages to ensure we'd be setup to succeed over time, not just in the short-term.

First, we invested in the Reason Rack Plugin (R11) to ensure Reason can be used by as many music makers as possible regardless of where they make music, we then focused on building out Reason+ to ensure we have a way to keep the Reason content as fresh as possible and that we have a business model and way to get Reason that is equipped for the future (because subscriptions are only going to become more ubiquitous, but yes, we'll continue to support both models) and then finally, we rebuilt huge parts of Reason under the hood to make sure we have a solid base to move forward from.

Now that this groundwork is in place (RRP, R+, tech overhaul), we now enter the stage where we will really get to work on some of the more core parts of Reason itself, which we've stated in the latest roadmap blog post (vst3, m1, workflow, sequencer etc). We have also stated that we plan to move to a continuous delivery model where we try and update Reason more often and we've already shown that we plan to be more transparent and open with our roadmap and product priorities.

So yes, it's been a few years since Niklas took over in 2019 and I know that has been frustrating for many of you, but the truth is, all these initiatives over the last few years have led to that this company is entirely focused on Reason (whether that be DAW, RRP, R+ or Perpetual) and making it the most creative and best music making software and experience we can. As many of you have already pointed out, with our historical forays into other ventures, that hasn't always been true, but it is true now, and I think that's really exciting.

Now, everyone is free to disagree of course and we'll definitely make mistakes along the way (we're only human), and we surely won't be able to please everyone with what we choose to build or how we choose to market the products, but we're out here, listening to you all, and trying to do our best.

I have pretty thick skin (working in startups and software for over a decade will do that to you!), but reading that some of our users genuinely believe we are driven by money or bankers or selling the company to the highest bidder is the one thing that really can get to me! We are a tight, committed team of 43 creative humans who come to work everyday because we just love music and love trying to make our company a better place to work and a successful company in general. Whilst the commercial realities of running a business exist, and it's of course great to see the business growing and doing well, those sorts of things are a mile away from being what really drive the people at this company to get up every morning.

OK, wow, that turned out longer than I had originally planned and I hope that didn't come off as too defensive, but I just wanted to share these thoughts and reflections with this community.

Have a nice evening everyone and happy music making! <3

HI James,

First of all thank you for providing some more insight into what is going on at RS it is appreciated to understand more. Just for clarity and only my opinion of course but i dont think reason staff are driven by money but you are now in partnership with VC and it is fair to assume they want to make a return on their investment. Do not take these as personal comments directed at the staff it is more that the direction can look a bit worrying.
For example when you started reason+ some people worried about the future of perpetual but you confirmed these would not be fazed out, people then said you would make the perpetual cost more so reason+ is more attractive. I did not believe that but lo and behold a price increase of £70 which is fairly substantial. Bearing in mind that reason 12 reviews touched on the lack of value for some users to then increase this at this point is baffling as some were trying to justify spending £129 let alone £199. Do you view reviews on your product?

Now i appreciate that reason has not increased it prices for a while and as a company it is your decision but the timing of this increase and the way it has been delivered is poor in my opinion. You could have quite easily stated on the 1st September (or prior) that you are putting prices up and that sept- oct is a grace period for people to buy reason at the price it has been for a while (£129). That way you would give people a month to consider this (and factor it into budgets if they get paid on the 1st of each month). It seems at the moment that you are pressurizing people to make a decision on a product that even you admit has issues and the roadmap hints at what is to come but contains no guarantees.

Not saying you are going to leave it in its current state but as a customer if i buy it now i have no legal recourse for a refund after a period of time if these things do not get implemented. Considering the roadmap must be quite a way down the line and i assume technically possible surely you can guarantee that reason 12 owners will get the things planned up to January at least (even if there are delays you can guarantee these will be in 12 at some point).

Far more important than the timing however is the product, service and value to individuals. As others have stated this price rise really should come into effect once you have fixed and implemented the roadmap at the very least. If you are increasing the price it should come as no surprise for us users to expect that the product and new offerings reflect value and that the whole customer experience is good. Currently more and more users feel that the quality of the product and service needs improvement. You have informed us where you are working on the daw and this is appreciated and i would ask that you also work on customer service better (for example the last 2 times i have emailed support i have received no response). It might sound harsh but i would have got the same level of customer service if i had asked the same question to a tree in my garden and you now want us to pay more.

To be fair this thread and online (facebook etc) may be a tough read for RS staff but it is only that we actually care and are invested in the company. It would be more worrying if people just did not care what RS do and didnt post. You have a loyal following but it sometimes feels recently to me that customer care and service have taken a back seat. We want you to succeed and prosper so we can load up reason (regardless of what version we are on) so please take this feedback in good faith.

Thanks for your input! And don't worry, it's not a tough read in that sense, we understand that mixed opinions go with the territory of having a product with hundreds of thousands of active users. Feedback is a gift, after all

Regarding the pricing, I hear you, and understand your point of view. We'll have Reason 12 far more stable in the next few weeks, and we think we've got a really exciting roadmap ahead of us, that can place Reason in pole position to be one of the most creative, powerful and inspiring music environments out there. We strongly believe it's going to be worth $200 for an upgrading user, but that decision is up to every each of you to make yourselves! We certainly hope to win you over!

[jamespember]

I don't care how they feel. I'm the customer. If they do a crap job then then it's not my job to pat them on the back and give them even more money. They exist to provide goods and services to their customers. If they fail at providing those adequately then they don't deserve money or praise. 12 is just giving you basic features that all the competition already have. There is nothing new to differentiate it or make you choose it over something else.

Hi Res? Should have been a thing years ago. Not a feature.
M1 Support? Yeah, sorry, yet again, not a feature. Its the cost of doing business.
New Sampler? Ok, yet again something every other DAW has built in (and most of them are more fully featured).

Oh, and none of this is even finished yet. So why should I be happy to pay them 50% more for an upgrade?

How is it possible that in a few years Bitwig has a fully functional modern DAW and in that same time Reason has just barely been able to add VST support and half baked Hi Res support ‍♂️

This right here, post of the day. Kudos to you! Too many folks losing sight of the forest from the trees due to heart felt emotional pleas from RS members and others trying to minimize a series of blatant, self deprecating operational decisions. The poll speaks for itself and that's only the ones that actually attend RT and participate!

This wasn't an emotional plea or some sort of damage control, it's just me being honest and sharing some context and our thinking. Everyone is free to agree or disagree with the reasoning of course - and we aren't here to debate or try to win everyone over, we're here to listen and share our thinking.

[jamespember]

I think that's ultimately pretty fair feedback - this company has tried its hand at a bunch of different ventures (social, hardware, mobile) over the years, none of which have really stuck. Leaving aside the issue of whether companies should try continue to innovate and invest in burgeoning areas (that's truly another topic for another day), you can call me biased but I have a slightly more optimistic take on where we are at now. Let me explain.

When Niklas took over the CEO role in 2019, the company stopped focusing on anything that is not related to Reason itself. Allihoopa was shut down, development was stopped on the mobile apps, we stopped investing in other potential platforms like the web and all the internal resources and focus shifted back onto Reason and how to setup Reason for the future - and make it the best and most creative music making experience out there.

This wasn't going to happen overnight though, it had to happen in stages to ensure we'd be setup to succeed over time, not just in the short-term.

First, we invested in the Reason Rack Plugin (R11) to ensure Reason can be used by as many music makers as possible regardless of where they make music, we then focused on building out Reason+ to ensure we have a way to keep the Reason content as fresh as possible and that we have a business model and way to get Reason that is equipped for the future (because subscriptions are only going to become more ubiquitous, but yes, we'll continue to support both models) and then finally, we rebuilt huge parts of Reason under the hood to make sure we have a solid base to move forward from.

Now that this groundwork is in place (RRP, R+, tech overhaul), we now enter the stage where we will really get to work on some of the more core parts of Reason itself, which we've stated in the latest roadmap blog post (vst3, m1, workflow, sequencer etc). We have also stated that we plan to move to a continuous delivery model where we try and update Reason more often and we've already shown that we plan to be more transparent and open with our roadmap and product priorities.

So yes, it's been a few years since Niklas took over in 2019 and I know that has been frustrating for many of you, but the truth is, all these initiatives over the last few years have led to that this company is entirely focused on Reason (whether that be DAW, RRP, R+ or Perpetual) and making it the most creative and best music making software and experience we can. As many of you have already pointed out, with our historical forays into other ventures, that hasn't always been true, but it is true now, and I think that's really exciting.

Now, everyone is free to disagree of course and we'll definitely make mistakes along the way (we're only human), and we surely won't be able to please everyone with what we choose to build or how we choose to market the products, but we're out here, listening to you all, and trying to do our best.

I have pretty thick skin (working in startups and software for over a decade will do that to you!), but reading that some of our users genuinely believe we are driven by money or bankers or selling the company to the highest bidder is the one thing that really can get to me! We are a tight, committed team of 43 creative humans who come to work everyday because we just love music and love trying to make our company a better place to work and a successful company in general. Whilst the commercial realities of running a business exist, and it's of course great to see the business growing and doing well, those sorts of things are a mile away from being what really drive the people at this company to get up every morning.

OK, wow, that turned out longer than I had originally planned and I hope that didn't come off as too defensive, but I just wanted to share these thoughts and reflections with this community.

Have a nice evening everyone and happy music making! <3

Thanks James, for the clarifications. I have been a Reason user since version 1.0, and I've loved every iteration of it since then. It is understandable that Reason Studios has tried to make forays into other avenues including apps, and whatnot, but it's refreshing to see that you really are dedicated to getting things right with Reason going forward.

I have bought most of the major DAWs out there and they all have their positives and negatives but when it comes to just putting something together in a fast and intimately creative way, nothing beats Reason for the shear diversity of instruments, effects, etc. It was inspirational 20 years ago and it still is, now more than ever. Having read the last umpteen pages of this thread, it's clear that people aren't happy with some of the ways Reason Studios has dealt with pricing. We're still in somewhat of a "pandemic" economy, and pushing up the price to Reason 12 upgraders, giving them only a 2-week grace period, seems a bit heavy handed.

I'm a Reason+ subscriber since April 2021, and I got the $99 US yearly deal (about $121 Canadian) and I'd love to continue with Reason+ in April 2022, but at a price point of $199 US (which is currently around $241 Canadian - not $259 Canadian on the recent blog post), it's a hard decision for I and others to make.

I honestly think if Reason Studios could somehow hold on to the $99/year pricing (much like the Adobe Lightroom/Photoshop model) you'd make a killing with many more people flocking to the subscription model. Maybe you're already reaching out to different groups of people with incentive pricing, I don't know. Twice that amount is hard for a lot of people to swallow, especially when the software won't be "completed" for quite a few more months. It would be nice to see at least some kind of incentive for users of Reason+/Reason 12 who at this point have software that is not complete.

These thoughts are just my two cents worth. I love Reason so much, and all that comes with the software, and the feeling that I can create anything I put my mind to. I do hope something shifts in the next little while where pricing is concerned. It may help alleviate some or all of the pent-up frustration being demonstrated on this thread and likely others. Thanks for your time.

Thanks Stephen! Tiered pricing for Reason+ is absolutely on our radar, just still working through all the different permeations and possibilities.

[jamespember]

When Niklas took over the CEO role in 2019, the company stopped focusing on anything that is not related to Reason itself. Allihoopa was shut down, development was stopped on the mobile apps, we stopped investing in other potential platforms like the web and all the internal resources and focus shifted back onto Reason and how to setup Reason for the future - and make it the best and most creative music making experience out there.

Thanks as always for chiming in, it does indeed take some thick skin to come on here to defend the company, and I for one am glad you're here sharing some inside info.
What you're saying about this decision is exactly what most of us were crying out for when Props lost the plot with all the apps and the Allihoopa stuff, so good job there Niklas.

I have pretty thick skin (working in startups and software for over a decade will do that to you!), but reading that some of our users genuinely believe we are driven by money or bankers or selling the company to the highest bidder is the one thing that really can get to me! We are a tight, committed team of 43 creative humans who come to work everyday because we just love music and love trying to make our company a better place to work and a successful company in general. Whilst the commercial realities of running a business exist, and it's of course great to see the business growing and doing well, those sorts of things are a mile away from being what really drive the people at this company to get up every morning.

I do not doubt that the RS staff care about their products and the company, I think that still shines through and still helps make Reason unique. However owners don't necessarily care too much what their employees think, or let them in on their strategies.
In the end the company is owned by venture capitalists, who really only do one thing: Increase short-term profit, dress up the bride, and get rid. Oh, that's three things I suppose.
We all had our fears when they took over, and there is a feeling now that their agenda is starting to show. Things feel more rushed now, with weird timings for the subscription announcement and this price hike along with the premature R12 release.
I wouldn't mind the price hike if the product evolved enough to justify it, I would gladly pay $199 every two years or even more often if the upgrades were frequent-er. But, the way existing users are forced to blindly upgrade by a certain date when the actual product we're upgrading to is clearly lacking kind of gets to me. Get the software right first, then you can start the marketing schemes.

Fair enough, I understand your point of view - so thanks for that. Hope to be able to deliver some great Reason updates to you soon.

[Lancaster]

Just to be clear I was not saying give them a pat on the back by any means. Just give them a chance to prove the increase price is worth it down the line. If it’s not then save your money for when it is, like any software I only pay for an upgrade if it’s relevant to me.

Anyway life is too busy to spend any more time on here. It is what it is, I enjoy using reason and if they release updates I want/need I will upgrade… If not I carry on having fun with reason as it is. End of the day what I have paid for so far I am very happy with.

[dan_g]

geez so i just did it - i Updated. JRR shop with Code FORUM. and the current dollar/euro transaltion left me with 101€. i at least hope most of the things on the road map will be a Free Point Update for current R12 users. VST3 ist not really a thing but the QOL stuff would be much appreciated.

[stratatonic]

Yes! This is quite an increase. In such short notice. 129 to 199. I’ll take out my crystal ball and predict that Reason Studios will finally have their first half price upgrade sale next year - just like Studio One and others do. So 99 won’t look so bad. Enoch! Set your calendar.

[flori89]

Alright, so since someone from Reason is reading here. I'm currently trying out Reason+. I'm making music as a hobby and trying to decide what DAW to invest in. So far: The value proposition as opposed to your competitors isn't there.

If I look at it in a vacuum it's a great product, but that's not the reality. I feel much more confident to invest into Ableton, Studio One, Cubase etc. because while there are complaints about every DAW they don't seem to lack so much behind each other as Reason is behind anyone else.

If I would want a subscription model, I'd go with PreSonus Sphere. That's significantly cheaper and they deliver (more or less) the same thing. The flavor is a little different, but there is no advantage that Reason+ has that would be worth the extra money.

Opposed to others, I'm absolutely not against subscription models. But the value has to be there. If I take the average release cycle of Ableton I can basically get the suite version pay for the upgrades and end up at the same total amount spent then on Reason+ over the years while with Ableton I "own" everything (own is a stretch with software) and when I quit Reason+ I lose everything.

That's just not enough to warrant buying into this eco system. I'd advise taking a hard look at your competition and thing about what you can provide that others can't that would justify that rather steep price.

[Pepin]

For comparison Live 11 upgrade is $159, and it was released 3 years after Live 10.
Bitwig upgrade plan is $179 annually.

That puts Reason somewhere between Live and Bitwig. It's far more expensive than DAWs with free upgrades (Logic, FL Studio), but it's still in step with the industry assuming the scope of new features is comparable.

However, that's assuming Reason continues to release upgrades every two years.
One worry of mine is that RS could eventually move to an annual model for major releases, considering their new approach of adding features continuously.

[whitewolfmusic]

So far: The value proposition as opposed to your competitors isn't there.

If I look at it in a vacuum it's a great product, but that's not the reality. I feel much more confident to invest into Ableton, Studio One, Cubase etc. because while there are complaints about every DAW they don't seem to lack so much behind each other as Reason is behind anyone else.

As a long-term Reason user, I would say that you haven't really looked enough at all the Rack devices Reason comes with. Most of them are extremely powerful and versatile on their own. Once you have figured out how to combine them in clever ways with manually routing cables on the back side, you get even more powerful and creative. I have worked with Reason for about 10 years on a daily basis, and only after about the first 1.5 years into learning it, I fully grasped each rack device and the power of the virtual cables. These devices as well as the unique workflow definitely offer tons of value, but it takes time to learn it.

... with Ableton I "own" everything (own is a stretch with software) and when I quit Reason+ I lose everything.

That's the point. Once they decide to make you KEEP what you pay for after X months, it's a fine concept. Namely, rent-to-own. But as it stands? No, thanks.

[flori89]

As a long-term Reason user, I would say that you haven't really looked enough at all the Rack devices Reason comes with. Most of them are extremely powerful and versatile on their own. Once you have figured out how to combine them in clever ways with manually routing cables on the back side, you get even more powerful and creative. I have worked with Reason for about 10 years on a daily basis, and only after about the first 1.5 years into learning it, I fully grasped each rack device and the power of the virtual cables. These devices as well as the unique workflow definitely offer tons of value, but it takes time to learn it.

O.K fair, I honestly have no idea how deep the Reason instruments are and they are more fun to play with then i.e. the stock instruments of Ableton (I'm on the 90 days Ableton trial same time to have a comparison). But apart from graphics, is Europa really that much deeper then i.e. Wavetable? It's an honest question, because I haven used both enough to say it for myself.

Don't get me wrong, I can totally see why I would rather use Algorithm then Operator, so I had the idea to get Ableton Standard instead of Suite and then Reason 12 for the instruments. That doesn't really work though, because the really cool stuff is only part of Reason+.

If Reason is mostly marketing to existing users, that's fine for me. But to me it's not clear why I should pay more to get Reason instead of something else. They will have to work on that if they want new users.

[AttenuationHz]

I just upgraded. I was going to upgrade either way, so this announcement didn't really change anything for me. I suspect this will allow them to hit up the the typical Black Friday & seasonal sales with discounts down to like $159 or something. Some people will pay the $199 if they have to, while others will wait until the sales that ought to happen a lot more frequently if the price is now $199.

The price increase means there will be no sales bargain to be had for buying Reason. It is well known that Music Software in general is mostly priced for sales in mind, the busiest time of the year for Music Software vendors is Black Friday / Cyber Monday. A substantial price hike such as this does nothing for the end user, in fact it is so much worse than increasing the price a little. It would be mutually beneficial for a less severe price increase. I do agree that there needs to be a price increase however not €199, not even close.

This for me is more important to hear than the roadmap that was posted last week. That said, I think the increase to $199 is going to be a huge mistake. $169 might be the highest increase that would be tolerable by many, and I don't think anyone would bat an eye at $149. The jump to $199 feels pretty extreme, and could cause a LOT more people to alternate upgrade cycles, especially if there's not a ton of new offerings in each upgraded version. Please pass along a note to seriously reconsider the amount of the upgrade increase, not the idea of an increase.

€199 is a massive error it does nothing but devalue Reason. I firmly believe the stage is now set for a kill scene, despite what moderators and others are saying here, it is a preverbal nail in the coffin - not yet a final one, the best-worst thing RS will do to Reason is yet to come in that regard I feel. From a transitioning standpoint of Propellerhead to Reason Studios this is worst outcome one could expect. RS are boiling the frog where users are concerned, it is really amateurish stuff actually - in that sense to make the frog comfortable you don't put it in boiling water you put it in tepid water and slowly bring the water to boiling point, the frog gets comfortable and adjusts to the changing temperature, but ultimately the frog dies sadly the frog being the users loyalty and ubiquitous presence - there is a lesson in that experiment allow users to adjust to changes being made, slowly bring them on board with the idea that the Company needs to be making more money. They've shown their hand way too early with this price hike.

I fully agree that there does need to be a price increase, it makes total economic sense to have an increase but not ~55%. ~24% makes complete economic sense especially given that this is closer to the increase for new users. You know... I don't think they have even crunched these numbers: At a €159 increase RS will have roughly €20 more profits per unit sold compared to when there is a sale with no increase and €30 more when there is not as opposed to €139 (199 * 30%) in a sale (€10 profit) and €70 profit out of sale which very few users will be willing to pay. They've cancelled the sale price with such an extraordinary increase and then added the profits that they project they should be making (€10) 199 * 30% is still €10 profit compared to €129. They know people will be waiting for a 30% markdown, which happens to be double amount of profit they could have made if there was a reasonable increase if they change their minds about it and came to a good compromise, I I'm sure everyone could be happy about. Which would be capping the sale price to €110. No profits lost still gaining €20 ($ £ whatever) and definitely not boiling the frog - everyone is happy. €199 is really not maximising profit the opposite is true; I think it is fair to say we are a principled bunch of users, a lot of us just won't update regularly because to our minds €199 * 2 or 3 or 4 take your pick releases * 30% - (€199 * 1 or 2 or 3 skipped updates) is a much cheaper option and we can still benefit from previous updates - this is not maximising profit it is minimising it.

[bxbrkrz]

As a long-term Reason user, I would say that you haven't really looked enough at all the Rack devices Reason comes with. Most of them are extremely powerful and versatile on their own. Once you have figured out how to combine them in clever ways with manually routing cables on the back side, you get even more powerful and creative. I have worked with Reason for about 10 years on a daily basis, and only after about the first 1.5 years into learning it, I fully grasped each rack device and the power of the virtual cables. These devices as well as the unique workflow definitely offer tons of value, but it takes time to learn it.

O.K fair, I honestly have no idea how deep the Reason instruments are and they are more fun to play with then i.e. the stock instruments of Ableton (I'm on the 90 days Ableton trial same time to have a comparison). But apart from graphics, is Europa really that much deeper then i.e. Wavetable? It's an honest question, because I haven used both enough to say it for myself.

Don't get me wrong, I can totally see why I would rather use Algorithm then Operator, so I had the idea to get Ableton Standard instead of Suite and then Reason 12 for the instruments. That doesn't really work though, because the really cool stuff is only part of Reason+.

If Reason is mostly marketing to existing users, that's fine for me. But to me it's not clear why I should pay more to get Reason instead of something else. They will have to work on that if they want new users.

Don't forget to include reaper https://www.reaper.fm/videos.php among the others, if you are looking for value, and a well loved product. $60 + lots and lots of free VSTs you can find around, that's the ultimate value to make music right now.
But value and loving the interaction you have with a tool is hard to estimate. It is important to understand why a product exists, and what it brings to your creativity.

[whitewolfmusic]

As a long-term Reason user, I would say that you haven't really looked enough at all the Rack devices Reason comes with. Most of them are extremely powerful and versatile on their own. Once you have figured out how to combine them in clever ways with manually routing cables on the back side, you get even more powerful and creative. I have worked with Reason for about 10 years on a daily basis, and only after about the first 1.5 years into learning it, I fully grasped each rack device and the power of the virtual cables. These devices as well as the unique workflow definitely offer tons of value, but it takes time to learn it.

O.K fair, I honestly have no idea how deep the Reason instruments are and they are more fun to play with then i.e. the stock instruments of Ableton (I'm on the 90 days Ableton trial same time to have a comparison). But apart from graphics, is Europa really that much deeper then i.e. Wavetable? It's an honest question, because I haven used both enough to say it for myself.

Don't get me wrong, I can totally see why I would rather use Algorithm then Operator, so I had the idea to get Ableton Standard instead of Suite and then Reason 12 for the instruments. That doesn't really work though, because the really cool stuff is only part of Reason+.

If Reason is mostly marketing to existing users, that's fine for me. But to me it's not clear why I should pay more to get Reason instead of something else. They will have to work on that if they want new users.

It really depends on what you consider to be "the really cool stuff", what you are after and what you may need for your type of music. When it comes to beats, Reason is filled with inspiring and fun tools.
The KONG Drum Designer gives you tools to create drum kits based on samples, rex files, physical modeling or synth drums, including built-in FX and a whole lot of controls. Make sure you click on "show drum and fx" on the bottom!.
Its workflow makes use of modern MPC-style pads. On the back side, you have outputs per pad, so you can route each individual sound through its completely own chain of devices. This tool alone would cost as much as an entire Reason upgrade, if it were sold as a VST plugin.
Then, there is the good old REDRUM Drum Computer. It is sample based and offers a classic step sequencer workflow. Not only can you load in samples, you can also directly sample into the slots. Individual cable outputs on the back as well.
If you like loops and slices, Dr. Octorex is your weapon of choice.
And while you can create a lot with these devices on their own and then automate the pattern / bank selection in the sequencer, there are the player devices. BEATMAP. Just place it before any of those devices and explore beats with ease. Talk about inspiration and song starters.
I also deeply love the MATRIX Pattern Sequencer, it is so simple, but just satisfying to use.

For synths, THOR is a really flexible and powerful one. Actually, all synths shipped with Reason are. Even those who may not look like much compared to the fancy UI plugins these days, like Subtractor and Malström.
For samples, the new MIMIC and GRAIN are also inspiring and fun to use.

Whatever you may be missing, there is a good chance you can find a solution within the Rack Extensions in the store (and if you don't want Reason+, maybe consider the rent-to-own model for some plugins there?) or as third party VST.
I have tried Ableton Suite as well, but to me, the content that comes with it is not worth that expensive price tag. Actually, getting Live Standard plus Reason 12 for instruments would be a great choice, if you ask me.

[flori89]

O.K fair, I honestly have no idea how deep the Reason instruments are and they are more fun to play with then i.e. the stock instruments of Ableton (I'm on the 90 days Ableton trial same time to have a comparison). But apart from graphics, is Europa really that much deeper then i.e. Wavetable? It's an honest question, because I haven used both enough to say it for myself.

Don't get me wrong, I can totally see why I would rather use Algorithm then Operator, so I had the idea to get Ableton Standard instead of Suite and then Reason 12 for the instruments. That doesn't really work though, because the really cool stuff is only part of Reason+.

If Reason is mostly marketing to existing users, that's fine for me. But to me it's not clear why I should pay more to get Reason instead of something else. They will have to work on that if they want new users.

It really depends on what you consider to be "the really cool stuff", what you are after and what you may need for your type of music. When it comes to beats, Reason is filled with inspiring and fun tools.
The KONG Drum Designer gives you tools to create drum kits based on samples, rex files, physical modeling or synth drums, including built-in FX and a whole lot of controls. Make sure you click on "show drum and fx" on the bottom!.
Its workflow makes use of modern MPC-style pads. On the back side, you have outputs per pad, so you can route each individual sound through its completely own chain of devices. This tool alone would cost as much as an entire Reason upgrade, if it were sold as a VST plugin.
Then, there is the good old REDRUM Drum Computer. It is sample based and offers a classic step sequencer workflow. Not only can you load in samples, you can also directly sample into the slots. Individual cable outputs on the back as well.
If you like loops and slices, Dr. Octorex is your weapon of choice.
And while you can create a lot with these devices on their own and then automate the pattern / bank selection in the sequencer, there are the player devices. BEATMAP. Just place it before any of those devices and explore beats with ease. Talk about inspiration and song starters.
I also deeply love the MATRIX Pattern Sequencer, it is so simple, but just satisfying to use.

For synths, THOR is a really flexible and powerful one. Actually, all synths shipped with Reason are. Even those who may not look like much compared to the fancy UI plugins these days, like Subtractor and Malström.
For samples, the new MIMIC and GRAIN are also inspiring and fun to use.

Whatever you may be missing, there is a good chance you can find a solution within the Rack Extensions in the store (and if you don't want Reason+, maybe consider the rent-to-own model for some plugins there?) or as third party VST.
I have tried Ableton Suite as well, but to me, the content that comes with it is not worth that expensive price tag. Actually, getting Live Standard plus Reason 12 for instruments would be a great choice, if you ask me.

O.K since I'm on the test phase I'm going to make sure to try out all your suggestions. Maybe I'll be converted. But to answer your question, the things I had most fun with are Algoritm and Complex and getting both of those on top of R12 makes it quite expensive as a whole.

[StephenHutchinson]

Following on from Jamespember's down to earth (and what I believe to be honest) comment yesterday - I have bitten the bullet and upgraded to 12 before the price hike. JRR are still accepting the Forum code and so I picked it up for 87 GBP. For me it's a speculative investment, which I will take advantage of in 2022 when the R12 issues are fixed and VST3 is added.

Deep down I want Reason to continue and over time improve. I'm NOT in so much of a rush as others here to see the sequencer improvements as I primarily use RRP these days. But... RRP is at the heart of what I produce in S1, so it would be a sad day to see it fall away.

One thing I'd like to see is RRP allowing me to add VSTs to the rack.

I have Reason 11 and Reason 12 (via Reason+). I saw your post today and thought that maybe purchasing the Reason 12 upgrade with the FORUM code for "future proofing." I'm about to hit "Add to Cart" and I'm hoping it won't affect my Reason+ subscription at this point. I'm also hoping that the license they send won't expire at some time in the future if I haven't installed/used Reason 12 perpetual. Wish me luck.

[StephenHutchinson]

Thanks James, for the clarifications. I have been a Reason user since version 1.0, and I've loved every iteration of it since then. It is understandable that Reason Studios has tried to make forays into other avenues including apps, and whatnot, but it's refreshing to see that you really are dedicated to getting things right with Reason going forward.

I have bought most of the major DAWs out there and they all have their positives and negatives but when it comes to just putting something together in a fast and intimately creative way, nothing beats Reason for the shear diversity of instruments, effects, etc. It was inspirational 20 years ago and it still is, now more than ever. Having read the last umpteen pages of this thread, it's clear that people aren't happy with some of the ways Reason Studios has dealt with pricing. We're still in somewhat of a "pandemic" economy, and pushing up the price to Reason 12 upgraders, giving them only a 2-week grace period, seems a bit heavy handed.

I'm a Reason+ subscriber since April 2021, and I got the $99 US yearly deal (about $121 Canadian) and I'd love to continue with Reason+ in April 2022, but at a price point of $199 US (which is currently around $241 Canadian - not $259 Canadian on the recent blog post), it's a hard decision for I and others to make.

I honestly think if Reason Studios could somehow hold on to the $99/year pricing (much like the Adobe Lightroom/Photoshop model) you'd make a killing with many more people flocking to the subscription model. Maybe you're already reaching out to different groups of people with incentive pricing, I don't know. Twice that amount is hard for a lot of people to swallow, especially when the software won't be "completed" for quite a few more months. It would be nice to see at least some kind of incentive for users of Reason+/Reason 12 who at this point have software that is not complete.

These thoughts are just my two cents worth. I love Reason so much, and all that comes with the software, and the feeling that I can create anything I put my mind to. I do hope something shifts in the next little while where pricing is concerned. It may help alleviate some or all of the pent-up frustration being demonstrated on this thread and likely others. Thanks for your time.

Thanks Stephen! Tiered pricing for Reason+ is absolutely on our radar, just still working through all the different permeations and possibilities.

Thanks James for the reply, and that's great news indeed. Much appreciated!

[StephenHutchinson]

I was just about to check the Canadian exchange rate... but you beat me to it. The pricing... wow.. just wow.

Actually, Props don't calculate the exchange, they just set a fixed price for each different region in the world. So $199 USD may or may not convert to $269, but $269 CAD will be the price if you're in Canada.

Thanks It is maybe a fixed and averaged rate due to the constant fluctuation of currencies over longish period of time.

[OverneathTheSkyBridg]

Thanks James, for the clarifications. I have been a Reason user since version 1.0, and I've loved every iteration of it since then. It is understandable that Reason Studios has tried to make forays into other avenues including apps, and whatnot, but it's refreshing to see that you really are dedicated to getting things right with Reason going forward.

I have bought most of the major DAWs out there and they all have their positives and negatives but when it comes to just putting something together in a fast and intimately creative way, nothing beats Reason for the shear diversity of instruments, effects, etc. It was inspirational 20 years ago and it still is, now more than ever. Having read the last umpteen pages of this thread, it's clear that people aren't happy with some of the ways Reason Studios has dealt with pricing. We're still in somewhat of a "pandemic" economy, and pushing up the price to Reason 12 upgraders, giving them only a 2-week grace period, seems a bit heavy handed.

I'm a Reason+ subscriber since April 2021, and I got the $99 US yearly deal (about $121 Canadian) and I'd love to continue with Reason+ in April 2022, but at a price point of $199 US (which is currently around $241 Canadian - not $259 Canadian on the recent blog post), it's a hard decision for I and others to make.

I honestly think if Reason Studios could somehow hold on to the $99/year pricing (much like the Adobe Lightroom/Photoshop model) you'd make a killing with many more people flocking to the subscription model. Maybe you're already reaching out to different groups of people with incentive pricing, I don't know. Twice that amount is hard for a lot of people to swallow, especially when the software won't be "completed" for quite a few more months. It would be nice to see at least some kind of incentive for users of Reason+/Reason 12 who at this point have software that is not complete.

These thoughts are just my two cents worth. I love Reason so much, and all that comes with the software, and the feeling that I can create anything I put my mind to. I do hope something shifts in the next little while where pricing is concerned. It may help alleviate some or all of the pent-up frustration being demonstrated on this thread and likely others. Thanks for your time.

Thanks Stephen! Tiered pricing for Reason+ is absolutely on our radar, just still working through all the different permeations and possibilities.

Hi James, thought I'd chime in here regarding tiered pricing. I think getting rid of the Suite option was a mistake. I had R11 Suite and would've gladly upgraded to an R12 Suite option with Algorith and Friktion included, or essentially a Reason + that I can own. A lot of people here place value on owning our software rather than subscribing to it and having our projects stuck behind a paywall so to speak. Anyways, cheers to you guys and don't take the feedback to personally here. A lot of us are passionate about seeing Reason succeed!

[PropitiousME]

This right here, post of the day. Kudos to you! Too many folks losing sight of the forest from the trees due to heart felt emotional pleas from RS members and others trying to minimize a series of blatant, self deprecating operational decisions. The poll speaks for itself and that's only the ones that actually attend RT and participate!

This wasn't an emotional plea or some sort of damage control, it's just me being honest and sharing some context and our thinking. Everyone is free to agree or disagree with the reasoning of course - and we aren't here to debate or try to win everyone over, we're here to listen and share our thinking.

You can call it whatever you want. You represent a business James, not the "thoughts and reflections of James.P" as it suits any particular narrative. It's damage control for anyone with business sense (or that has worked at a high level in the corporate world and seen the effects of negative PR and how it's handled). The point is... words from RS staff don't carry weight with me and other RS consumers anymore James. Actions sir, actions speak louder than any heartfelt words or moments of knee jerk clarity / honesty that were derived from the resulting failures you've all managed with PR and the latest release.

So in typical fashion, it's all too little too late and only after you've flogged the proverbial horse and sent it home limping to the dismay of it's owner(s). Stick to the business James. Less talk and more walk would serve you and your team well now. You've got a $200 upgrade to flesh out and you've left consumers to speculate the justifications!

[Social Exodus]

Quick Question: I can get this upgrade at the JRR Shop (which I just discovered exists in this thread) for $114.00 -- do I still get the 30 day return policy, or is that strictly if purchased through Reason Studios?

[PhillipOrdonez]

starting @ 16:22 - 19:30

@ 16:55 it is clearly stated "as we move mostly into subscriptions and learn more". It's right there in audio. I missed that the first time.

In listening to this section of the video again and looking at the random price increase on a flawed product it seemed to have always been planned. Not my words. Check the video yourself. Do you hear it the way I do?

Just the fact that Mimic was updated quickly with note detection but everything else is on a future timeline makes it appear like they have all of the builds already, they're now just following a set schedule to justify R+. So now when X date hits release build 12.2 or 12.4 on and on and on but they are already completed. Just my opinion.

You may want to check your ears, he said "both" not "mostly".

[Heater]

I totally agree JiggeryPokery.

It’s clear that their business model is to extract as much money from its user with the least amount of work but still hale every incremental update as the next big thing. 2 years for high resolution graphics. Really!

I’m convinced that the reason why we don’t see meaningful sequencer improvements is because the original coders have left a long time ago.

I’m pretty sure they have a internal roadmap with a long list of improvements that could be put into normal updates but why do that when you can spread that across multiple major versions to bring in the bucks.

So I am left scratching my head wondering if the forthcoming Mac native M1 support is worth the upgrade price. One things for sure. It’s the last time they get anymore money out of me.

As a Reason user since version 1 this hurts a lot.

[drun robots]

I usually would not go on making comments, on any platform at all. But I have to confess that Reason is part of my daily routine for almost 10 years, and since this space seems to somehow echo into RS office, I’ll give it a go…

Since 6.5, I’ve skipped one single update up to now: version 8, mainly because my life had a hiccup.

Let’s put aside all the other factors and focus on this: RS had put some work on the new version, release it and put a price tag on it. Just like any other product or service, that price must reflect the end result at the time of the purchase. Buying promises is the business of sects, diet supplements, and fashion, not software development. My day job is engineering, and I will not pay for a promise of better features on a CAD software - those new features must be there at the time of purchase, they must add value to my work, and they must function properly. This is not being cynical or picky, it’s called pragmatism.

Then we have the value-added issue. It would be wise to make the following self inquisition: what is missing in Reason compared to other professional DAWs? Why is our DAW unique and how can we leverage on that? What can be added to its ecosystem to make it shine among the competition? A good example was the introduction of audio recording and the SSL mixer, it moved the software from an instrument to a DAW - that was worth the upgrade. Rack Extensions, that was worth the upgrade, VST… You get the picture. If the added value of a new version is not much of a leap, the price should follow accordingly.

Of course, that optimizing the experience of using it (HD, browser update) is something worth paying for - you get a better working environment. But at this price, it would have to be Extra-Ultra-Insane HD, and telepathic browsing… Take five minutes, get into the user’s shoes, consider the cut on revenue all musicians had this last two years, and drawn your own conclusions… I would love to update, but only if I didn’t get the quite sharp feeling of being mistreated.

Back to mixing...