Why R12 has got me a little worried ...

[avasopht]

So I shared the Algoritm teaser video with my friend.

His first question was "looking forward to using it as I've got Reason Suite".

"Oh no, it's not included" I had to break it to him.

He was pissed. It was impossible to miss the sense of betrayal.

And then R+ is announced and there are even more devices, but no Suite upgrade. I didn't ask.

But that's not all. No matter how disappointed forum members might be about a Reason release, it makes no difference to new people, so I've never had an issue recommending Reason to friends. To someone new, Reason 7, or Reason 8 is just whatever features it comes with. They have no personal history of feature suggestions.

But Reason 12 is different.

There are too many problems, far too many bugs, or features that behave in ways they really ought not to. I understand what the devs are up against and how tricky it can be to utilize the GPU to speed things up while still supporting lower-spec GPUs. All the decisions they have to make. Should they make use of mip-maps, could they just load the highest resolution image and let the GPU do its thing? Do they need to v-sync? And so on.

But I think it's too early for me to make a recommendation for R12 or R+. It seems like we're in an extended beta.

I'm sure they'll figure it out and R12 will iron out all the issues in the coming months. But this is not the state that it should be publicly exposed as an official release. It can leave a lasting negative impression on music makers for years.

[QVprod]

I'm not sure why people who bought Suite expected new instruments, but it seems to be a very common misconception. Looking back, they probably should've named it something different. That aside, I do agree That R12 being unfinished makes it slightly harder to recommend. I don't have any of the performance issues reported but friend mentioned to me once he didn't like Reason because everything was so small and hard to read. I can't exactly send him something with pixelated text.

The Roadmap does look promising though.

[avasopht]

I'm not sure why people who bought Suite expected new instruments, but it seems to be a very common misconception. Looking back, they probably should've named it something different.

It was presented as the premium edition of Reason that comes with all bells and whistles. In the store, it was presented as an edition of Reason with premium upgrade pricing.

When you upgraded to Reason 11 Suite, it was never presented as upgrading to Reason 11 with a Suite Bundle. It was presented as upgrading to Reason 11 Suite.

What it ended up being was a one-off bundle.

But there's nothing to suggest it wasn't intended to be a premium edition with all of the features and REs. Whatever the case, that is how it was presented.

It would have been trivial to communicate it in a way that wouldn't have led to that perception.

Whatever led to the miscommunication or change of plan towards R+ is a little concerning. Especially as they seem to have just neglected them and not honoured the expectation.

If you think about it, an explicit decision had to have been made. It had to have been asked. Do Reason 11 Suite owners get Friktion? And a decision was made about it.

Now, I've got no problem with the offering. The Suite Bundle was what it was, just like Rigs. You got what you got. There is no reason to expect your edition of Rigs to get licenses to anything new.

But the way Suite was communicated was as if it were a premium edition, and that presentation was most likely intended but intentionally not honoured.

I don't have any of the performance issues reported but friend mentioned to me once he didn't like Reason because everything was so small and hard to read. I can't exactly send him something with pixelated text.

The Roadmap does look promising though.

Runs fine for me as well, though I've not put it through the fire just yet.

I'm sure they'll figure things out and have a few treats up their sleeve.

[guitfnky]

people paid $ to buy Reason with the devices that were included in Suite at the time. expecting to get every new device from that point forward is awfully naive from a consumer perspective.

[Billy+]

people paid $ to buy Reason with the devices that were included in Suite at the time. expecting to get every new device from that point forward is awfully naive from a consumer perspective.

I brought suite and didn't expect anything more than what I paid for, it was a massive discount for the bundle and I honestly don't understand why anyone would think that they have somehow brought the future products.

I would be more pis*ed if RS did suite again as I've already purchased the remaining devices (instruments & player) because they said suite wouldn't happen again.

All the new toys are included in V12 (mimic and CMBv2) so let's hope they keep doing it that way as it actually adds value to the upgrade which the last few really haven't all they brought was devices that I had purchased into the upgrade, now that pis*ed me off as I brought the rack extensions and then they included them in the upgrade price.....

[Arrant]

I don't really see why people get upset over this. As a consumer you should always do your research before purchasing.
It was pretty clear that Suite was a one-time deal giving you all the available devices at the time of purchase, not all devices ever produced in the future.
And yeah, I'm a Suite owner.

[DaveyG]

I'm not sure many people would be expecting extra stuff to be added to 11 Suite for free but I do think RS could have charged a pretty penny for an upgrade from 11 Suite to 12 Suite and included a handful of REs in that.

There are probably some people who feel that going from 11 Suite to 12 "normal" is a step down, even though they keep everything that came with 11 suite.

[kbard]

I don't really see why people get upset over this. As a consumer you should always do your research before purchasing.
It was pretty clear that Suite was a one-time deal giving you all the available devices at the time of purchase, not all devices ever produced in the future.
And yeah, I'm a Suite owner.

Exactly.

Suite was just a deal.

I guess "suite" was badly selected word on their part. Suite(s) are usually associated with something more then regular versions.

I own Suite and will upgrade to R12. I am going to be clear, sine my financial status isn't exactly shiny I am waiting for Christmas deals. I want to bu Mutator but 74 EUR is way too much for me.

Somehow I am anticipating that they will try to make upgrades more favorable by adding Mutator to upgrades or full versions. Like "purchase Reason 12 or upgrade it and get X device for free".

This is a bold guess of mine based on similar offers in past.

[avasopht]

people paid $ to buy Reason with the devices that were included in Suite at the time. expecting to get every new device from that point forward is awfully naive from a consumer perspective.

Not every plug-in for the next hundred years, but Friktion it was within a reasonable period (especially given how hard they were promoting it).

Also there's the reasonable expectation for the to be a Reason 12 Suite to upgrade to which would come with the latest rack extensions.

Don't get me wrong, the offering is fine, but it was presented as a premium edition of Reason with upgrade pricing that corresponds with that appearance.

I've not bought Suite, so I've no personal gripes.

But I find the execution and disposition of late a little concerning.

Maybe I'm wrong and absolutely nothing has changed. But I see these as a signal.

[bxbrkrz]

When I bought Suite I immediately got PX7, the only tool I felt was missing from the bundle. With such a saving it was a no-brainer.
Always buy and enjoy the now.
Never the more stuff for free is coming maybe in the future I swear to you.
With that attitude you'll never get hit by fomo.
You'll always be happy now

[joeyluck]

You can blame your friend's confusion and the similar confusion of others for the introduction of R+

I think it's great though because part of it aims to solve that. You want everything all the time and all the new things when they're released? You get R+ and if you want just some things, you buy them individually.

[lowtom]

Suite was just bad naming. It works for Ableton as there is Standard version with almost no instruments or M4L and Suite gives you those add ons.

With Reason, the "Standard" version was already loaded with almost every instrument you need. Reason was never just empty, bare bones sequencer with Audio and MIDI tracks + some effects and basic sounds.

Even with this approach if you compare Ableton, say Suite 9 to 11, no one ever will get new stuff from 11 for free, just because they bought previous version 9. Even further, Ableton is also selling additional instruments, made in M4L, which are never added to Suite versions.

[avasopht]

When I bought Suite I immediately got PX7, the only tool I felt was missing from the bundle. With such a saving it was a no-brainer.
Always buy and enjoy the now.
Never the more stuff for free is coming maybe in the future I swear to you.
With that attitude you'll never get hit by fomo.
You'll always be happy now

I'm fine, I never bought Suite.

My issue is just what all of this signals.

And that was just the introduction. A set-up, if you will.

My biggest issue is the state of the release. That should be concerning for anyone who is invested in the future success of Reason.

At the same time, a few of their recent decisions (and some old ones that are not only controversial but pretty petty) seem a little off.

The way this release was handled was far too cringeworthy.

Now I'm not complaining. There's nothing I'm upset about or demand I feel is not met. I'm just a tad bit concerned.

Their financials are okay so I'm not worried about them going out of business.

[musicman691]

I'm not sure why people who bought Suite expected new instruments, but it seems to be a very common misconception. Looking back, they probably should've named it something different. That aside, I do agree That R12 being unfinished makes it slightly harder to recommend. I don't have any of the performance issues reported but friend mentioned to me once he didn't like Reason because everything was so small and hard to read. I can't exactly send him something with pixelated text.

The Roadmap does look promising though.

I've long resisted upgrading from Reason 8.3 but this R12 has me interested in that I don't have to deal with Rewiring to ProTools. What has me worried is reading the word 'unfinished'. I suspect fixes and updates to be coming but would it be a good thing to get into the update now especially not knowing how long the $129 price will last. I guess I'm asking is R12 usable mainly as a Rack (I don't need it's daw functioning)? I've read the thread 16+ page about R12 being released but there are issues that don't particularly pertain to main use as a rack. I know they also talked about Combinators but that's something I haven't used all that much.

As to promising roadmap I know you can't talk about things in development or what/when things will drop but a simple yes/no answer will suffice in this case: will we be able to opt out of sending usage data and such to corporate? As I read that's not possible anymore. I don't put my daw computer online any more than I have to.

[fullforce]

When you upgraded to Reason 11 Suite, it was never presented as upgrading to Reason 11 with a Suite Bundle. It was presented as upgrading to Reason 11 Suite.

What it ended up being was a one-off bundle.

Let's do a Komplete!

<later>

Let's not!

[tiker01]

So I shared the Algoritm teaser video with my friend.

His first question was "looking forward to using it as I've got Reason Suite".

"Oh no, it's not included" I had to break it to him.

He was pissed. It was impossible to miss the sense of betrayal.

And then R+ is announced and there are even more devices, but no Suite upgrade. I didn't ask.

But that's not all. No matter how disappointed forum members might be about a Reason release, it makes no difference to new people, so I've never had an issue recommending Reason to friends. To someone new, Reason 7, or Reason 8 is just whatever features it comes with. They have no personal history of feature suggestions.

But Reason 12 is different.

There are too many problems, far too many bugs, or features that behave in ways they really ought not to. I understand what the devs are up against and how tricky it can be to utilize the GPU to speed things up while still supporting lower-spec GPUs. All the decisions they have to make. Should they make use of mip-maps, could they just load the highest resolution image and let the GPU do its thing? Do they need to v-sync? And so on.

But I think it's too early for me to make a recommendation for R12 or R+. It seems like we're in an extended beta.

I'm sure they'll figure it out and R12 will iron out all the issues in the coming months. But this is not the state that it should be publicly exposed as an official release. It can leave a lasting negative impression on music makers for years.

I might have said something like this a few years ago. However, from being in a Software PO position for a few years now I am more understanding with such decisions. Sometimes things from the inside it is better to let something out in the wild. It can feel good for the team plus you get the SW to even more systems than in beta.

[avasopht]

Let's do a Komplete!

<later>

Let's not!

Haha ... yeah, pretty much.

I definitely need to upgrade from V10, but for now, I might have to stick with 11 (maybe even get Suite). Comb 2 and high-res can wait until the next update to clear things up.

[Billy+]

You can blame your friend's confusion and the similar confusion of others for the introduction of R+

I think it's great though because part of it aims to solve that. You want everything all the time and all the new things when they're released? You get R+ and if you want just some things, you buy them individually.

That's exactly what I think they are trying to do with plus as well but for me the fact that you still have to buy a license to stop subscribing is a turn off, I understand it for new users without any licensing but for old timers whom have a daw license I find it difficult to accept handing over the cost of suite every year but actually not owning it after 12 months.

[avasopht]

I might have said something like this a few years ago. However, from being in a Software PO position for a few years now I am more understanding with such decisions. Sometimes things from the inside it is better to let something out in the wild. It can feel good for the team plus you get the SW to even more systems than in beta.

I get that.

And we've no idea how long this has been in development for.

[avasopht]

You can blame your friend's confusion and the similar confusion of others for the introduction of R+

I think it's great though because part of it aims to solve that. You want everything all the time and all the new things when they're released? You get R+ and if you want just some things, you buy them individually.

That's exactly what I think they are trying to do with plus as well but for me the fact that you still have to buy a license to stop subscribing is a turn off, I understand it for new users without any licensing but for old timers whom have a daw license I find it difficult to accept handing over the cost of suite every year but actually not owning it after 12 months.

Even for new users, this is not good. People will think about what happens in 5 or 10 years time when they've changed their mind but still want to access and play around with the music they've created.

R+ does seem like an easier offering to maintain as you don't need to have that conversation about which version gets which plugins, or whether the current version gets the licenses immediately.

[scotward57]

When R11 Suite was announced, it was expected that there would be a premium tier going forward. But when RS fell in love with a subscription idea, they knew that having an R12 suite would kill sales for R+. Besides, going forward, there's going to be a far less need for REs. The new combinator and sound packs will deal a severe blow to the RE community. I hate the direction but it is where RS is going.

If you think about it, RS is most likely intending to be bought out by one of the DAW motherships. Apple and the Logic Universe is where RS is headed IMO.

[arqui]

Here they write that in time they will fix the problems and bugs of Reason 12, I'm still waiting for them to fix the problems of Reason 11, that they abandoned it to raise funds with an unfinished version.
sorry for my sadness, but it's the truth.

[Billy+]

Here they write that in time they will fix the problems and bugs of Reason 12, I'm still waiting for them to fix the problems of Reason 11, that they abandoned it to raise funds with an unfinished version.
sorry for my sadness, but it's the truth.

Really, again with this - the fix is the next update which is version 12 now
Software is nothing more than an idea and collection of bug fixes labelled as major upgrade

[arqui]

Here they write that in time they will fix the problems and bugs of Reason 12, I'm still waiting for them to fix the problems of Reason 11, that they abandoned it to raise funds with an unfinished version.
sorry for my sadness, but it's the truth.

Really, again with this - the fix is the next update which is version 12 now
Software is nothing more than an idea and collection of bug fixes labelled as major upgrade

Yes again with this and I am going to put it a thousand times more, I am not going to pay to take a thousand more errors, I paid for a software that in none of its point updates finished working well. Why do I have to keep paying? I don't want Reason 12, I want 11 to work fine.

[avasopht]

Really, again with this - the fix is the next update which is version 12 now
Software is nothing more than an idea and collection of bug fixes labelled as major upgrade

That's not an appropriate comment to make ‍♂️

Suffice to say, it's been a standard thing in software for decades to supply fixes in the same version until a reasonable period of time after either release or the release of the next version.

Sometimes fixes will be applied to versions that have been unsupported for years if it's a critical or serious security bug.

In this instance, no, it's quite insincere to say "it's been fixed in the next version." Especially given the bug was known about so long ago.

That being said, maybe they will apply the patch to R11. It would send out a very bad message if they did not.