Reason Studios shares their roadmap (September 7, 2021)

[Pepin]

Complexity of a codebase is not the same thing as size. And neither tells you how easy it is to change. A large and complex codebase can be easy to change if it’s architecturally consistent, modular etc. and if the devs are intimately familiar with it. Likewise a small and “simple” codebase could be hard to change if there’s inconsistencies, no documentation, constant developer churn, etc.

In the specific case of high res graphics and related bugs, it’s safe to say those types of changes in 20 year old software will necessitate a lot of development time and aren’t comparable to run of the mill updates.

But beyond that, none of us are in a position as end users to draw conclusions about how easy a given change would be or why development pace is what it is (good or bad).

[EnochLight]

Complexity of a codebase is not the same thing as size. And neither tells you how easy it is to change. A large and complex codebase can be easy to change if it’s architecturally consistent, modular etc. and if the devs are intimately familiar with it. Likewise a small and “simple” codebase could be hard to change if there’s inconsistencies, no documentation, constant developer churn, etc.

In the specific case of high res graphics and related bugs, it’s safe to say those types of changes in 20 year old software will necessitate a lot of development time and aren’t comparable to run of the mill updates.

But beyond that, none of us are in a position as end users to draw conclusions about how easy a given change would be or why development pace is what it is (good or bad).

I mean, that's a great post to play "middle ground", but I'm sure you can agree that Reason is a far more complex program than Reaper? That's really the point of the last 2 pages of this thread. You don't even need to look at file size of the program to make that assumption; just look at the programs themselves. Reason comes with a boatload of actual "plugins" (the rack) as well as their various CV and routing - that alone is complex. Then add on top of that the sequencer/mixer DAW portion... Reaper is just nowhere near that.

Suggesting Reaper is even on the same level seems laughably out of touch with the two programs, IMHO. Again, I realize there are a lot of Reaper fans here and they are taking this personally. They shouldn't - we're just talking program complexity, that's all.

[Pepin]

I mean, that's a great post to play "middle ground", but I'm sure you can agree that Reason is a far more complex program than Reaper? That's really the point of the last 2 pages of this thread. You don't even need to look at file size of the program to make that assumption; just look at the programs themselves. Reason comes with a boatload of actual "plugins" (the rack) as well as their various CV and routing - that alone is complex. Then add on top of that the sequencer/mixer DAW portion... Reaper is just nowhere near that.

Suggesting Reaper is even on the same level seems laughably out of touch with the two programs, IMHO. Again, I realize there are a lot of Reaper fans here and they are taking this personally. They shouldn't - we're just talking program complexity, that's all.

The thing is, feature set and codebase complexity are not the same thing. Example: Adding more devices makes the feature set larger, but if they’re all self-contained RE-based devices, then they don’t really create the type of complexity that should slow down development of other features.

That said, sure, Reason is probably more complex at the end of the day (not much experience here with Reaper). I do not agree with drawing conclusions about development speed based on that complexity, however. There are far too many other variables (and not all of them technical).

[MrFigg]

Oi!! I went to sleep last night and suddenly this morning we’re back on topic. That’ll never do.
What’s your favourite colour?

[guitfnky]

Ignorance abounds in this statement. The only thing you got right was Reaper's file size.

If you want to add something of value into this thread, try avoiding ad hominems; carries a lot more weight. But I'd love to hear why you think anything I said was "ignorant".

I don't think that's an ad hominem attack. they said the statement contained ignorance, not that you are ignorant as a person. you clearly didn't do your homework, so the statements you made came from a place of ignorance. that's a fact. while you yourself are generally a pretty thoughtful guy (who I happen to disagree with quite often), who generally backs up your posts with well-considered analysis, you're still human, and make mistakes.

I say stupid shit all the time, but I'm not stupid. calling me out for saying something stupid isn't an attack, it's an observation.

anyhoo, back to the topic at hand...I'm gonna have to disagree with you (surprise!)...as others have pointed out, file size is not an indication of complexity. at a very basic level, the fundamental difference between Reason and Reaper is that one includes a whole load of plugins to use, and the other doesn't. if we stripped away all of the coding related to the individual devices (not the stuff necessary for the Rack to work--just the devices themselves--think of Reason with an empty Rack), then we'd be closer to comparing apples to apples. and if we did that, I'm pretty sure the file sizes would be a lot closer. and I suspect if one were to look at the code side by side, it would likely be apparent that of the two programs, Reaper is far more complex.

just the customizability of Reaper alone has to be built to handle a wider range of scenarios that Reason doesn't need to be concerned with--it's not as simple as adding a checkbox for a feature--it has to work with everything else that's going on. it's much easier for a program like Reason to handle, because they're essentially curating what scenarios are possible in the first place.

[avasopht]

I don't think that's an ad hominem attack. they said the statement contained ignorance, not that you are ignorant as a person. you clearly didn't do your homework, so the statements you made came from a place of ignorance. that's a fact. while you yourself are generally a pretty thoughtful guy (who I happen to disagree with quite often), who generally backs up your posts with well-considered analysis, you're still human, and make mistakes.

I say stupid shit all the time, but I'm not stupid. calling me out for saying something stupid isn't an attack, it's an observation.

anyhoo, back to the topic at hand...I'm gonna have to disagree with you (surprise!)...as others have pointed out, file size is not an indication of complexity. at a very basic level, the fundamental difference between Reason and Reaper is that one includes a whole load of plugins to use, and the other doesn't. if we stripped away all of the coding related to the individual devices (not the stuff necessary for the Rack to work--just the devices themselves--think of Reason with an empty Rack), then we'd be closer to comparing apples to apples. and if we did that, I'm pretty sure the file sizes would be a lot closer. and I suspect if one were to look at the code side by side, it would likely be apparent that of the two programs, Reaper is far more complex.

just the customizability of Reaper alone has to be built to handle a wider range of scenarios that Reason doesn't need to be concerned with--it's not as simple as adding a checkbox for a feature--it has to work with everything else that's going on. it's much easier for a program like Reason to handle, because they're essentially curating what scenarios are possible in the first place.

I'll just add that you can easily double/triple the size of an executable by changing a few compilation settings, including a hefty library, or making use of templates that generate tonnes of code everywhere they're used.

You can't really take RE's out of the question when comparing the core subject at hand of productivity, since any in-house code-based RE uses development resources. Ditto for the SDK.

But whatever the case is, release frequency (the initial observation that sparked this discussion) means nothing.

Programmer productivity is a very well studied subject, and while we've not been able to find any viable measures of productivity, we do know what doesn't work well:
1. Counting lines of code
2. Counting tickets completed
3. Counting tasks
4. Counting git commits
5. Counting versions/releases
6. Counting filesize
7. Counting features/modules/classes/functions
8. Counting time spent
9. Counting developers
10. Counting "man-months" (there's even a book on this)

Every time a metric like anything above has been tried, it did not go down well.

You'd have to actually spend a few years writing code to understand why they're such poor measures of productivity.

Is Cockos really more productive than RS? I doubt it.

Since Reaper has been released, Reason has added:
1. A built-in ReCycle lite (okay, ... they already created the tech for that ...)
2. APE
3. Neptune
4. Players
5. GPU accelerated proprietary plugin format with managed raster and vector graphics rendering (and developer tools for quickly testing/prototyping)
6. ReGroove
7. Blocks
8. Many stretching algorithms
9. In-house devices, REs and Players (and there are lots of them)
10. SSL mixer
11. RRP
12. WYSIWYG Combinator editor

These are all distinguishing features Reaper doesn't have.

But it's still an Apples/Oranges comparison. It's like trying to compare Inkscape (vector & free) with Photoshop (raster) and GIMP (raster & free) with Illustrator (vector). It's a fool's errand. You can sit down all day shouting "look at all these raster features GIMP can do that Illustrator can't?" But it's silly because they're completely different tools.

[EnochLight]

anyhoo, back to the topic at hand...I'm gonna have to disagree with you (surprise!)...as others have pointed out, file size is not an indication of complexity.

It's cool, but I'm still of the idea that Reaper is a far less complex program than Reason.

Is Cockos really more productive than RS? I doubt it.

Since Reaper has been released, Reason has added:
1. A built-in ReCycle lite (okay, ... they already created the tech for that ...)
2. APE
3. Neptune
4. Players
5. GPU accelerated proprietary plugin format with managed raster and vector graphics rendering (and developer tools for quickly testing/prototyping)
6. ReGroove
7. Blocks
8. Many stretching algorithms
9. In-house devices, REs and Players (and there are lots of them)
10. SSL mixer
11. RRP
12. WYSIWYG Combinator editor

These are all distinguishing features Reaper doesn't have.

But it's still an Apples/Oranges comparison. It's like trying to compare Inkscape (vector & free) with Photoshop (raster) and GIMP (raster & free) with Illustrator (vector). It's a fool's errand. You can sit down all day shouting "look at all these raster features GIMP can do that Illustrator can't?" But it's silly because they're completely different tools.

Indeed, which is why I assert that comparing Cockos' alleged "2 devs only" frequency of releasing updates almost every month cannot be compared to Reason's development at all, really.

[artotaku]

Every time a metric like anything above has been tried, it did not go down well.

You'd have to actually spend a few years writing code to understand why they're such poor measures of productivity.

As a side note - there is a really helpful metric found by Sonar, it is called Cognitive Complexity. We use it as an indicator how complex and understandable our code is. Whenever I looked at a piece of code and I intuitively thought this is hard to understand I was prooved lateron when I saw that it was highest ranked in the cognitive complexity chart. So there is something about it.
https://www.sonarsource.com/resources/w ... omplexity/

[avasopht]

As a side note - there is a really helpful metric found by Sonar, it is called Cognitive Complexity. We use it as an indicator how complex and understandable our code is. Whenever I looked at a piece of code and I intuitively thought this is hard to understand I was prooved lateron when I saw that it was highest ranked in the cognitive complexity chart. So there is something about it.
https://www.sonarsource.com/resources/w ... omplexity/

Yeah, that was one of the most insightful metrics from Borland Together that made me rethink my designs in my early days.

[Loque]

The only really useful metric to measure code quality is WTF/minute...

[orthodox]

The only really useful metric to measure code quality is WTF/minute...

It is highly subjective and can be easily abused.

[Creativemind]

... or a Breakaway

Aw man. That day they took away our, erm, Brookaway.

Just mentioning those brands triggers the jingles in my head, for better or for worse.

"Don't take away my Breakaway"
"Lub a Club"
"United we stand"

Don't remember the triple choc Twix though.

No, nobody seems to. It was chocolate flavoured biscuit and chocolate flavoured caramel and chocolate on top. I messaged them asking them to bring it back but had no reply lol!

[kitekrazy]

Where are you getting the figure of 2GB from?

Reason is actually just a meager 43MB program.

I'm not seeing either 44mb or 2GB as a file size for any version of Reason I have access to currently.
But the fact we are all seeing vastly different figures indicates there are (at least) a few unaccounted for variables here...

So in total the download file size is about 1,4 GB excluding Soundbanks and external content (Klang, Humana, etc).

I extrapolated file size from the earlier (pre 7.0, when refills weren't included) Reason downloads available in my account, minus the FSB and Orkerster content. Regardless, Reaper is clearly at least half the size of Reason - code wise. I still assert that the complexity of Reason leaves Reaper in the dust. Change my mind.

Ignorance abounds in this statement. The only thing you got right was Reaper's file size.

If you want to add something of value into this thread, try avoiding ad hominems; carries a lot more weight. But I'd love to hear why you think anything I said was "ignorant".

Well apart from the bullsh*t argument about frikin file sizes of daws and how much is rewritten?

Honestly who gives a flying ****

Well, Billy - it's not bullshit if you want to discuss the absurd idea that Reason should be just as easy to update as Reaper apparently is. Someone pointed out that Reason doesn't get as many updates that Reaper does (which is roughly once a month, with only 2 devs). I submit that the explanation is: Reason is a far more complex program. That's 100% relevant to this discussion, is it not?

You dug a deep hole with your ignorant statement. Good luck with that. You should have some background other than file size as your statement. You need to move on instead of trying to defend yourself.

[Billy+]

Hope this helps

[Neo]

index.png (72.58 KiB) Viewed 3080 times

[DaveyG]

Do we think they regret publishing a roadmap yet?

[michael.jaye]

Don't remember the triple choc Twix though.

No, nobody seems to. It was chocolate flavoured biscuit and chocolate flavoured caramel and chocolate on top. I messaged them asking them to bring it back but had no reply lol!

They call my little girl Twix at her daycare because she is always sucking on her two fingers.
Twix is still sold her in Australia.

[EnochLight]

You dug a deep hole with your ignorant statement. Good luck with that. You should have some background other than file size as your statement. You need to move on instead of trying to defend yourself.

Cool story.

[Billy+]

Do we think they regret publishing a roadmap yet?

Probably not

I would assume that publishing the roadmap along with notice of the price increases may well have convinced some people who was unsure about the product or going to wait into buying sooner.

The roadmap was never a guarantee and the dates were only ever targets.

[jaeproduced]

index.png

Simply Brilliant

[Heater]

Given that it’s the middle of November and they said they’d publish a new roadmap soon. When do you think that will be?

[Loque]

Given that it’s the middle of November and they said they’d publish a new roadmap soon. When do you think that will be?

I suggest to read the full thread to get your answer before we just start again.

[Neo]

index.png

Simply Brilliant

F knows we all need a laugh hey. heh
Lets go RS! I'm sure we will get an update soon.

[Billy+]

Given that it’s the middle of November and they said they’d publish a new roadmap soon. When do you think that will be?

I don't think the roadmap is the problem it was the dates that many believed would mean that the feature would definitely be available by. The simplest solution would be to announce that the features are going to be implemented in R12 and then drive interest in the investigation side of the plane as and when a feature from the roadmap is delivered.

At the moment all we really know is that they are not happy with Reason performance, which is a good acknowledgment as it suggests that they want to improve it.

What might be beneficial is for an announcement of what the developer would like to see.

We might also believe that the smart search isn't quite doing what it was supposed to be doing and or is under performing or maybe it's the whole hd implementation

But ultimately we don't actually know anything for certain as there has been no actual announcement

[Heater]

Given that it’s the middle of November and they said they’d publish a new roadmap soon. When do you think that will be?

I don't think the roadmap is the problem it was the dates that many believed would mean that the feature would definitely be available by. The simplest solution would be to announce that the features are going to be implemented in R12 and then drive interest in the investigation side of the plane as and when a feature from the roadmap is delivered.

At the moment all we really know is that they are not happy with Reason performance, which is a good acknowledgment as it suggests that they want to improve it.

What might be beneficial is for an announcement of what the developer would like to see.

We might also believe that the smart search isn't quite doing what it was supposed to be doing and or is under performing or maybe it's the whole hd implementation

But ultimately we don't actually know anything for certain as there has been no actual announcement

Thanks Billy+

Looks like we're not going to get a meaningful update anytime soon.