tools or toys?

[guitfnky]

Reason started out as a bunch of cool toys to make music with—instrument and effects devices that allowed us to create and manipulate sounds in fun and interesting ways. a playground.

when they introduced recording, there was a good stretch of almost 10 years where they largely focused on tools instead (MIDI out, VST support, sequencer improvements, etc.). not always as shiny as the toys, but important, nonetheless.

right now, it seems like RS are mostly focused on toys again (which is totally fine, even if it’s frustrating to people like me). the 4k improvements are definitely “tools”, but also born of necessity—keeping up with modern computer configurations. the new sampler, new combinator, sound packs, etc. are all toys, and I think that’s how RS really wants to spend their time.

but where *should* they be spending their time? there are already so many tools available that to continue adding more at the pace they’ve been going these last couple of years could result in a different kind of software bloat—so many toys to play with and less actual music getting finished.

[Billy+]

I think the way things are and how people consume these days it leaves companies like RS with very little choice but to keep making new toys as it allows them to hype the product, so it's understandable but trying to compete with other DAW's is definitely pointless especially as RS have always preferred to do things their own way at their own speed.

They might have found a way into other DAW's with RRP so I guess we should expect toys rather than tools for the foreseeable future weather we like it or not.

Personally I would prefer to see some features (tools) that would improve the DAW / sequencer and although it's fairly obvious that they have to at some point I'm very aware that they have limited resources to build both, maybe they will switch things up when RRP is fully functional or maybe the extra revenue will allow them to expand their team but for now I think we are going to have to hold tight while the hype train races about collecting money.

[Rising Night Wave]

i do not think so. i do not see Reason as a good DAW when you have to use The Echo for audio tape emulation.
i would kindly prefer to see that Reason would have even more tools for dedicated use. so, no The Echo for emulating old audio tape but dedicated REs for dedicated work/job to be done.

when there was a pool, here on ReasonTalk Forum, about: something like do you use patches or do you make your own sounds.... almost, almost all or everyone selected: i am using patches/presets. ---> this means almost every user of Reason DAW is uncapable of using existing REs for wanted work/jobs.

i am one of them - using mainly existing patches, presets. i am not that expert or skilled that would caem up to idea to use The Echo for old audio tape simulation.

The Echo should be for echo thing.

And The Old Tape shouldbe for old audio tape simulation.

that's it.

so more tools! surely more tools.

and another thing: to sort those tools, if Reason Studios would decide to make new dedicated tool REs.

[Rising Night Wave]

ps: anyway...they are making YT videos: do more in less. so?!! more tools for dedicatred tihngs. don't fool me. life is hard enough. almost every Reason DAW user is an old fart. unskilled. uncapable of thinking hehe, sorry for saying that. so... it is obvious that Reason DAW should have more REs - more dedicateed tools. for doing more in less time.

just look at audio making scene -> how many dedicated VSTs are there out there. my my. and Reason still sticks to the old thinking when using more REs for one job is a great thing. yea right. it takes me a lot of time to came up with idea what to use... and i am getting nervous with those presets and patches. more tools!!!

[Rising Night Wave]

make Reason DAW sweet!

[Heigen5]

I'd like Reason to focus on the Tools, that are fun to use like Toys. The sound-quality being top-notch and the workflow & GUI innovative.

[motuscott]

Fleshlight RE
I see no need to argue the obvious

[Onkel Paul]

I believe that REASON as a DAW is dead. PS will never be able to catch up with the "real" DAWs that exist.
Don't know if the want to anyhow, doesn't look like they do.

As I see the DAW (Sequencer, Midi and Audio Editor, Mixer) as a tool; it would be Toys that remain - if I stick with this distinction.
But the Instruments, Players and effects are also tools. Any Instrument is a tool to be played with (pun intended). Synts are a tool to create sounds.
For those that do not want to create sounds, there are the patches.The patches may be considered toys than.
Within this frame "tools or toys" is a nonsense question. The patches(toys) are useless without the tools(Synt). And the Synt benefit. from the presence of patches.

The poll should rather be: " REASON as a RRP and a DAW -OR- REASON as a full flegded and tightly integrated RRP for use with a DAW of choice.
If this would be the question, my answer would be, skip the DAW Part and focus on the RACK.

By the way, the photorealistic look is a toy. It was nice but it doesn't add to the music.

[plaamook]

Sequencer overhaul
Then capitalise on Reason's innate modular capacity. Build tools that have no limits instead of toys that do.
Then we can build our own toys like adults...

[gullum]

The poll should rather be: " REASON as a RRP and a DAW -OR- REASON as a full flegded and tightly integrated RRP for use with a DAW of choice.
If this would be the question, my answer would be, skip the DAW Part and focus on the RACK.

I choose to use my right to 1000% disagree with you for me the RRP is wasted time

[huggermugger]

They're all toys to me, but the very best kind. Reason is musical LEGO. Nothing else like it.

[guitfnky]

I think the way things are and how people consume these days it leaves companies like RS with very little choice but to keep making new toys as it allows them to hype the product, so it's understandable but trying to compete with other DAW's is definitely pointless especially as RS have always preferred to do things their own way at their own speed.

They might have found a way into other DAW's with RRP so I guess we should expect toys rather than tools for the foreseeable future weather we like it or not.

Personally I would prefer to see some features (tools) that would improve the DAW / sequencer and although it's fairly obvious that they have to at some point I'm very aware that they have limited resources to build both, maybe they will switch things up when RRP is fully functional or maybe the extra revenue will allow them to expand their team but for now I think we are going to have to hold tight while the hype train races about collecting money.

very little choice? there are loads of other DAW companies who do just fine (better) by not focusing only on shiny new toys. hell, Reaper doesn’t even HAVE any toys.

I also don’t agree that they have to focus on the DAW at some point. why? they have the RRP, and a marginally competent working DAW already. they could leave as-is, or abandon the DAW entirely if they really wanted to move that way.

I unfortunately do agree with you that they’ll probably continue to focus on toys for now. they seem to want that (Mattias’ recent comments tend to minimize the importance of tools, and maximize the importance of exciting/inspiring toys, when talking about what he thinks is important for Reason).

[huggermugger]

I unfortunately do agree with you that they’ll probably continue to focus on toys for now. they seem to want that (Mattias’ recent comments tend to minimize the importance of tools, and maximize the importance of exciting/inspiring toys, when talking about what he thinks is important for Reason).

Which leads me to believe that Reason standalone has a limited lifespan. They have a lot of catching up to do, so why not just let the other DAWs on the market carry that load? Then they can focus on the RRP, a plugin on steroids.

[Billy+]

Reason was always a rack of toys made to look and behave like hardware.

I brought Reason as a DAW but what initially got my interest was the toys that came with in, I preferred the stability of the rack over other DAW's and vst combinations and I'm glad I did.

But after 20 years of Reason and later Rack Extensions I've grown to the point that I don't have much need for a new toy unless it's something unique ( Friktion and Algorithm ) were my last purchases and I got them because I had cash that I hadn't used for anything in ages so RS generally knows how to hit that spot (excluding mimic) and I guess that's why it's stock.

As for the DAW features at some point,
well RS generally includes something new in the DAW now weather you think it's a "feature" or not I guess is up to you for example I definitely don't see removing the groove mixers skin as a feature but some will,

the same as the automation curve I guess it's a feature that I use but really it's more like correcting a mistake as it should have been there but no matter how you think it's listed as features, enhancements to the DAW are there they perhaps just aren't big enough to shout about.

Think about this if midi pass through / routing gets implemented is it really something that RS can shout about? Not really it's in every other daw on the market but for me it's the one missing feature/mistake that I've waited for the longest but it's definitely not going to interest RRP users they want new toys.

[guitfnky]

Reason was always a rack of toys made to look and behave like hardware.

I brought Reason as a DAW but what initially got my interest was the toys that came with in, I preferred the stability of the rack over other DAW's and vst combinations and I'm glad I did.

But after 20 years of Reason and later Rack Extensions I've grown to the point that I don't have much need for a new toy unless it's something unique ( Friktion and Algorithm ) were my last purchases and I got them because I had cash that I hadn't used for anything in ages so RS generally knows how to hit that spot (excluding mimic) and I guess that's why it's stock.

As for the DAW features at some point,
well RS generally includes something new in the DAW now weather you think it's a "feature" or not I guess is up to you for example I definitely don't see removing the groove mixers skin as a feature but some will,

the same as the automation curve I guess it's a feature that I use but really it's more like correcting a mistake as it should have been there but no matter how you think it's listed as features, enhancements to the DAW are there they perhaps just aren't big enough to shout about.

Think about this if midi pass through / routing gets implemented is it really something that RS can shout about? Not really it's in every other daw on the market but for me it's the one missing feature/mistake that I've waited for the longest but it's definitely not going to interest RRP users they want new toys.

the thing that continues to boggle my mind is that most Reason users buy into it because it’s easy to pick up, but eventually get to the point where they’re frustrated by some caveman-basic bit of DAW functionality available anywhere else. it seems like adding a bunch of really simple shit would put Reason right in the sweet spot for a whole lot of people. super easy to pick up, super inspiring, not bloated, but also not missing any glaring basics. I’m no marketer, so maybe I’m way off here, but goddamn, I would lose my shit with joy if they just filled the gaps.

and I think back to when I started working in modern DAWs—holy hell would I have been excited to use something like that. I was excited about Reason, but knew it was missing a lot when I started—having an easy, inspiring learning curve AND all the basics seems like such a no-brainer.

[Billy+]

100% agree but we're not in charge and I really don't think that it's a lot of work to bring it up a level, RRP is a great option to build new customers but getting the DAW on point must have an impact as well,

now what's easier daw enhancements or new devices ?
What gets attention / new customers ?

Unfortunately RS have definitely picked just one option to really push while relying on our loyalty which has worked for the most part.

I wasn't going to buy V11 but RS won me over with toys (suite) I just couldn't resist the cost of the bundle, did I buy it for the daw no I brought the toys, did I want a better daw of course but I accepted the extra toys over daw features because I've accepted that the daw gets some attention some time.

I guess it's a problem of our own making, but up until RRP I felt tied to the DAW now I can use them toys elsewhere, it's a choice that RS has given us it's a feature that is more interested than any in recent years and one that many people are talking advantage of.

[MixerJaexx]

The Combinator is a tool, not a toy. I recognize that I’m not the typical Reason user, but every single song of mine has relied on a Combinator I’ve created. From my song “Life Lockdown” creating sample-like effects for the (MIDI) piano melody to the mangling of the guitar breakdown on “Rebirth of Radiance” to turning recordings of a bicycle and wind chimes into melodic rhythms in “G.T. Bray”, a Combinator’s been at the heart of all of it.

I’ve been championing DAW improvements (as well as additional hardware support) on jaexx.com long before it was in vogue, but the (delayed) released of a new Combinator is absolutely a tool focus. In that regard, for my absolutely unique way of working in Reason, the last time I was this excited about a version of Reason was version 5 (Reason + Record).

[Billy+]

I guess I get your point but I don't agree wholeheartedly, if it's in the rack space it's a toy.

It's definitely a unique toy and depending on how it is incorporated into the sequencer section which would definitely make it a tool as well but for now I think it's better to label it as a toy just because it live in the rack

[avasopht]

I guess I get your point but I don't agree wholeheartedly, if it's in the rack space it's a toy.

It's definitely a unique toy and depending on how it is incorporated into the sequencer section which would definitely make it a tool as well but for now I think it's better to label it as a toy just because it live in the rack

To the skilled engineer, the rack is a toolbox.

[Billy+]

I guess I get your point but I don't agree wholeheartedly, if it's in the rack space it's a toy.

It's definitely a unique toy and depending on how it is incorporated into the sequencer section which would definitely make it a tool as well but for now I think it's better to label it as a toy just because it live in the rack

To the skilled engineer, the rack is a toolbox.

I accepted the point and the combinator is definitely not your average toy, but for the sake of simplicity it makes sense to label it a toy. But I do agree that it's very useful and a tool for the toys in the rack

I'm very much looking forward to seeing what they have done to it as well as I've not been impressed with the current 12 version at all and maybe the new combinator will have an impact on that....

But ultimately it's all a tool

[guitfnky]

The Combinator is a tool, not a toy. I recognize that I’m not the typical Reason user, but every single song of mine has relied on a Combinator I’ve created. From my song “Life Lockdown” creating sample-like effects for the (MIDI) piano melody to the mangling of the guitar breakdown on “Rebirth of Radiance” to turning recordings of a bicycle and wind chimes into melodic rhythms in “G.T. Bray”, a Combinator’s been at the heart of all of it.

I’ve been championing DAW improvements (as well as additional hardware support) on jaexx.com long before it was in vogue, but the (delayed) released of a new Combinator is absolutely a tool focus. In that regard, for my absolutely unique way of working in Reason, the last time I was this excited about a version of Reason was version 5 (Reason + Record).

I agree, the combi is a tool, yes, like most other utility devices. what you put into the combi are toys (mostly).

[avasopht]

I agree, the combi is a tool, yes, like most other utility devices. what you put into the combi are toys (mostly).

If I put Omnisphere inside a Combi, does that make Omnisphere a toy?

The reasoning seems a little flawed here.

[Aria Salvatrice]

It's fortunate we're discussing this in the English language, where to Play is a verb that can apply both to toys and to musical instruments, because however serious they might be, playfulness is the thing I value the most out of my tools.

If Reason is actually a toy, then they're catering to casual gamers, for sure. The play they advertise in "player devices" is only billed as a creative shortcut if you can't hack it as a legitimate artist. But if you're already an endgame player? Try out using those beginner toys off-label. Use them with the sort of crazy tryhard CV techniques that were necessary back when the toy was meant only for hardcore gamers. They'll surprise you. Good toys should be surprising!

It doesn't matter whether my tools act serious or not, only whether they have a large possibility space.
(But I must admit I am not enthusiastic about Mimic: how does it allow me to do anything new that I haven't already done with existing devices?)

[joeyluck]

I just want fun things

https://puffsfx.com

https://www.tiktok.com/@reesespuffs/vid ... copy_url=0

[Billy+]

I agree, the combi is a tool, yes, like most other utility devices. what you put into the combi are toys (mostly).

If I put Omnisphere inside a Combi, does that make Omnisphere a toy?

The reasoning seems a little flawed here.

It's definitely flawed and overly simplistic, as previously stated Reason is a tool for making music but in the context of the OP I made the distinction that rack devices are toys and based my responses off that.