Reason a plugin?

This forum is for discussing Reason. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
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tobypearce
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01 Jun 2021

This is the RS home page right now.

I know, I know: it's marketing, new users are good. Etc.
But Reason as a plugin? Really?
If I have to move on and find a second DAW to put Reason into, I will do, reluctantly. I love Reason though, and I always have done.

But do tell me. I'd rather not keep hoping that the sequencer (well: basically, all the non-rack elements) get some love, and then be disappointed.

There are so many things that make the non-rack part of Reason special: the SSL mixer, wonderful time stretching, excellent dual monitor support, and onwards. I'm not looking to go anywhere any time soon, but I do hope - yet again - that the folk over at Reason Studios (many of them new and with great fresh ideas), find a way to make long-time, loyal, loving users of Reason continue to feel valued. I'm not a child - I realise that Reason Studios don't owe me anything. On the other hand, it is not skillful for a company to take its core users for granted - they can be a powerful ally and force for growth if they feel included.

Best wishes,

Toby.
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DaveyG
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01 Jun 2021

tobypearce wrote:
01 Jun 2021
But Reason as a plugin? Really?
You're a bit behind the curve Toby. Reason has been a plugin since R11 launched in autumn 2019.

But, yes, the writing is on the wall for the DAW. RS keep stressing that Reason is the Rack and pushing the subscription model. I don't think they will drop the standalone but it will be relegated to the background. They have announced some of the things coming in R12 on 1st September. Two new devices, HD graphics and faster search. Maybe they will throw a few scraps to users of the standalone but don't hold your breath.

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tobypearce
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01 Jun 2021

DaveyG wrote:
01 Jun 2021

But, yes, the writing is on the wall for the DAW. RS keep stressing that Reason is the Rack and pushing the subscription model. I don't think they will drop the standalone but it will be relegated to the background. They have announced some of the things coming in R12 on 1st September. Two new devices, HD graphics and faster search. Maybe they will throw a few scraps to users of the standalone but don't hold your breath.
That's the fear.

(I remember the launch of R11 well. What has only become more clear over time is that, as you suggest, they seem to want the rack to become more important than the DAW.)
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Yonatan
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01 Jun 2021

For sure, the rack with its devices is a very important part of Reason, so great that we can take that with us whenever we need to use another DAW, but for me Reason shines the most when all its components are used together as a whole workstation, now with vst also. I love the sequencer and the mixer, but they need improvements, and they need refinements, just like all the other DAWs.
I really wish we will see something done there very soon, or its hard not to draw the conclusion that mixer and sequencer has became a museum. We pay for upgrading a DAW and not only a rack plugin. Off course I see that the plugin users need to see the value for them to pay for upgrade, but also we who use Reason as DAW, need to be pleased. And now there is R+ users to please as well with soundpacks and new devices. May all prosper.
Last edited by Yonatan on 01 Jun 2021, edited 7 times in total.

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Billy+
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01 Jun 2021

tobypearce wrote:
01 Jun 2021
DaveyG wrote:
01 Jun 2021

But, yes, the writing is on the wall for the DAW. RS keep stressing that Reason is the Rack and pushing the subscription model. I don't think they will drop the standalone but it will be relegated to the background. They have announced some of the things coming in R12 on 1st September. Two new devices, HD graphics and faster search. Maybe they will throw a few scraps to users of the standalone but don't hold your breath.
That's the fear.

(I remember the launch of R11 well. What has only become more clear over time is that, as you suggest, they seem to want the rack to become more important than the DAW.)
It's fairly obvious that they are going to continue promoting RRP and Plus as it's the only real way of getting more people using Reason, the standalone DAW isn't dead but it's not going to get people to buy into using Reason when they have been using another DAW for years so it's best for anyone who isn't happy with Reasons DAW to just accept that the marketing department is in charge of promoting Reason and they are going to stick with RRP and Plus.

Yonatan
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01 Jun 2021

Billy+ wrote:
01 Jun 2021
tobypearce wrote:
01 Jun 2021


That's the fear.

(I remember the launch of R11 well. What has only become more clear over time is that, as you suggest, they seem to want the rack to become more important than the DAW.)
It's fairly obvious that they are going to continue promoting RRP and Plus as it's the only real way of getting more people using Reason, the standalone DAW isn't dead but it's not going to get people to buy into using Reason when they have been using another DAW for years so it's best for anyone who isn't happy with Reasons DAW to just accept that the marketing department is in charge of promoting Reason and they are going to stick with RRP and Plus.
I understand that rack plugin and R+ gets some extra focus as they are news but I do not agree with the way RS sometimes makes it a bit unclear to find out that Reason is a DAW too and the way they have hidden the RE shop. Reason is a lovely DAW, don´t downplay it. But at least they display that Reason is (also a DAW).
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WOO
Posts: 361
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01 Jun 2021

Why the reluctance to make significant improvements to the sequencer work flow? These guys use other daws so why can't they take the best features from the competition and integrate those into reason. I just don't get it! I would love to hear someone from reason address this issue. For those of you new to this forum this problem goes way back.

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fullforce
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01 Jun 2021

WOO wrote:
01 Jun 2021
Why the reluctance to make significant improvements to the sequencer work flow? These guys use other daws so why can't they take the best features from the competition and integrate those into reason. I just don't get it! I would love to hear someone from reason address this issue. For those of you new to this forum this problem goes way back.
True that.
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Marc64
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01 Jun 2021

(and a DAW) Should be Reason is a DAW but also a plugin.

It's a hit in the face to us only reason users when they say it's a plugin first.

Feels like they want us to switch DAW so they can focus on The Plugin :thumbs_down:

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Gardinski
Posts: 340
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01 Jun 2021

My guess is that they've tallied up the figures and determined that the DAW aspect of it has hit market saturation, and that (perhaps) they've simply not been attracting many brand new customers in recent editions. It's feasible (and again, this is pure guesswork) that the bulk of their DAW sales have been the same old users upgrading, rather than fresh blood coming in and expanding the userbase at the rate they'd prefer to see.

If that's the case, and given that the pool of established, long-term users is likely to continue upgrading (natural wastage notwithstanding), then the only option they have to increase their market share is to try a different tactic. Repackage the software as a plugin, and thus tap into a potentially huge sea of prospective customers from 'rival' DAWs.

Suddenly, those rivals aren't really rivals at all, but a lucrative hunting ground from which fresh meat can be harvested. Everybody wins. More customers equals greater re-investment in the software, R&D, etc. Loyal old-timers can look forward to many more years of updates and a healthy future for a DAW which might otherwise have withered and died over time. New users will jump onboard and (hopefully) rock the boat just enough to keep things lively, and ongoing innovation will be encouraged.

I don't see any indication that the DAW is about to be dropped. If that were to happen, it would be financial suicide, because there's clearly a massive pool of existing clients which has been built up over the past 20 years. RS are not daft enough to throw that all away.

Personally, I have no great desire to use any other DAW. Reason is where I feel happiest, and most able to relax, create and expand my musical ideas. The other DAWs I've tried over the years (Cubase way back in the late 90s; Reaper more recently) feel cold and sterile to me, and utterly uninspiring. Reason is warm, stimulating, and its endless tweakability rewards experimentation. I never cease to be amazed and intoxicated by it. I'm pretty much guaranteed a crazy Eureka moment within minutes, pretty much every time I boot it up.

....but nevertheless, I truly believe that opening it up to a potential landslide of tens of thousands of new users is a healthy thing, and the best guarantee we have of Reason's longevity.

Look at the last few in-house REs.... Friktion and Algoritm are spectacular instruments. If they'd been palming us off with a few crappy plugins like (I'm sorry to say this) Klang/Pangea etc, then that would represent a worrying turn of events, and I'd be concerned that things are winding down at Reason HQ (as some people seem to take a weird glee in suggesting). But that's clearly not the case.

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guitfnky
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01 Jun 2021

Gardinski wrote:
01 Jun 2021
My guess is that they've tallied up the figures and determined that the DAW aspect of it has hit market saturation, and that (perhaps) they've simply not been attracting many brand new customers in recent editions. It's feasible (and again, this is pure guesswork) that the bulk of their DAW sales have been the same old users upgrading, rather than fresh blood coming in and expanding the userbase at the rate they'd prefer to see.

If that's the case, and given that the pool of established, long-term users is likely to continue upgrading (natural wastage notwithstanding), then the only option they have to increase their market share is to try a different tactic. Repackage the software as a plugin, and thus tap into a potentially huge sea of prospective customers from 'rival' DAWs.

Suddenly, those rivals aren't really rivals at all, but a lucrative hunting ground from which fresh meat can be harvested. Everybody wins. More customers equals greater re-investment in the software, R&D, etc. Loyal old-timers can look forward to many more years of updates and a healthy future for a DAW which might otherwise have withered and died over time. New users will jump onboard and (hopefully) rock the boat just enough to keep things lively, and ongoing innovation will be encouraged.

I don't see any indication that the DAW is about to be dropped. If that were to happen, it would be financial suicide, because there's clearly a massive pool of existing clients which has been built up over the past 20 years. RS are not daft enough to throw that all away.

Personally, I have no great desire to use any other DAW. Reason is where I feel happiest, and most able to relax, create and expand my musical ideas. The other DAWs I've tried over the years (Cubase way back in the late 90s; Reaper more recently) feel cold and sterile to me, and utterly uninspiring. Reason is warm, stimulating, and its endless tweakability rewards experimentation. I never cease to be amazed and intoxicated by it. I'm pretty much guaranteed a crazy Eureka moment within minutes, pretty much every time I boot it up.

....but nevertheless, I truly believe that opening it up to a potential landslide of tens of thousands of new users is a healthy thing, and the best guarantee we have of Reason's longevity.

Look at the last few in-house REs.... Friktion and Algoritm are spectacular instruments. If they'd been palming us off with a few crappy plugins like (I'm sorry to say this) Klang/Pangea etc, then that would represent a worrying turn of events, and I'd be concerned that things are winding down at Reason HQ (as some people seem to take a weird glee in suggesting). But that's clearly not the case.
no, ignoring the DAW in favor of pointing at the shiny RRP that can be used elsewhere is not the 'only option', and the fact that it's not the only option is exactly the problem. they could increase their market share of people interested in using it as a DAW, by simply bringing it up to modern standards. you can't hang with the big boys, or even the medium boys, if you're not even trying. 7 new sequencer features in a major upgrade sure as hell ain't trying.

they do have a pool of existing users to cater to, for sure, but the DAW has only been around for less than 12 years--still a good chunk of time, but they were primarily a virtual instrument before that.

I couldn't agree with you more about Reason being the most fun to use as a DAW, but that fun is hampered by the fact that it's missing a great deal of absolutely crude basic quality of life features which literally exist in every other major DAW, and a baffling lack of effort at improving those weaknesses over the last few releases.

the most frustrating thing is, they keep telling us they're committed to the DAW, and I keep believing them, but there will come a time when my dumb ass will realize they're only crying wolf, and I'll finally walk away from the shell game.

or maybe they'll surprise me. one can hope.
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zoidkirb
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01 Jun 2021

I only installed 11 very recently (jumped on the free 12 upgrade deal) and even though I feel 11 was overall a very weak release, the 6 midi/sequencer upgrades were probably the most logical updates they could have gone with, and proves they were listening.

If R12 ships with another 6 sequencer updates (including some of these:midi capture, midi comping, midi chase, folders) then I think they're very much on the right track.

strange_scenery
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Joined: 05 Nov 2020

01 Jun 2021

I agree with everything Gardinski said, with the exception that I started using Studio One with the RRP this year and after a bit of a learning curve am enjoying it very much.

I believe Mattias said sometime last year that 40% of Reason users use the RRP, and with the passage of time and the introduction of R+ I would not be surprised if that number was now at 50% or even higher. I think if it has not happened already, very soon the DAW users are going to be in the minority. It also makes business sense to focus on the RRP, as if even half of that 40% were new users, that means with the introduction of the Rack Plugin they have grown the Reason userbase by 25%, which is a huge growth rate.

Steedus
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01 Jun 2021

Even as a 99.5% sole user of the Reason DAW, When I think of Reason, I think of the rack. The Mixer too, is great to use, but "Reason" to me, is the rack of goodies that can be wired up.

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dvdrtldg
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01 Jun 2021

Steedus wrote:
01 Jun 2021
Even as a 99.5% sole user of the Reason DAW, When I think of Reason, I think of the rack. The Mixer too, is great to use, but "Reason" to me, is the rack of goodies that can be wired up.
Same. I really like the DAW but I have to say, with devices like Kompulsion and Sequences now in my collection, I'm feeling less and less like I'd be bothered if I had to use Reason as a plugin. Of course it would mean jumping on board with a new DAW, and the consequent learning curve & time investment, but that might not be such a bad thing in the long run

I'd miss the mixer, but it wouldn't be a deal breaker. And I could totally live without the sequencer. For me it's 99% about the rack and CV connectivity

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RoryM0
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02 Jun 2021

dvdrtldg wrote:
01 Jun 2021
Steedus wrote:
01 Jun 2021
Even as a 99.5% sole user of the Reason DAW, When I think of Reason, I think of the rack. The Mixer too, is great to use, but "Reason" to me, is the rack of goodies that can be wired up.
Same. I really like the DAW but I have to say, with devices like Kompulsion and Sequences now in my collection, I'm feeling less and less like I'd be bothered if I had to use Reason as a plugin. Of course it would mean jumping on board with a new DAW, and the consequent learning curve & time investment, but that might not be such a bad thing in the long run

I'd miss the mixer, but it wouldn't be a deal breaker. And I could totally live without the sequencer. For me it's 99% about the rack and CV connectivity
Same for me. I actually detest the mixer and do as much as I can in the rack so I don't have to use it. Similar attitude to the sequencer but I end up using that more of course for device pattern sequencing and automating knobs and faders.

I still only have R10 installed and I have a bunch of projects started in that I'm working through, but otherwise I'm happy using reaper and renoise and look forward to using the RRP in both.

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RoryM0
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02 Jun 2021

Hey, just for the trivia of it look at this opening post from a thread I started in Feb 2018....
RoryM0 wrote:
06 Feb 2018
Here it is my vision, the Reason rack as a VST instrument/effect. Throw away the mixer, throw away the sequencer and transport and regroove, midi tool window etc, just leave the rack with all native devices and access to all rack extensions you've bought. What do you think of this idea? Would it be something you'd embrace?
;)

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DaveyG
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02 Jun 2021

RoryM0 wrote:
02 Jun 2021
Hey, just for the trivia of it look at this opening post from a thread I started in Feb 2018....
RoryM0 wrote:
06 Feb 2018
Here it is my vision, the Reason rack as a VST instrument/effect. Throw away the mixer, throw away the sequencer and transport and regroove, midi tool window etc, just leave the rack with all native devices and access to all rack extensions you've bought. What do you think of this idea? Would it be something you'd embrace?
;)
So it's your fault! ;p I love having Reason as an RRP but I would like the DAW improved too.
Rory, as you seem to control what RS do please could you put in a word for VST3 and VST MIDI. Ta. :thumbs_up:

helmutson
Posts: 211
Joined: 30 Mar 2015

02 Jun 2021

Fact is, RS has no chance any longer making Reason as a DAW professional as Logic, Live etc. They are waaay behind in comparisation with the functionality of the Pro DAW's on the market. So, they concentrate their manpower on the best part of Reason, the Rack. Every step they take in the last years underline that. All the goodies in the DAW, like the EQ, dynamics etc. are now available as rack units. The very good strech algo is included in the new sampler etc ... RRP is RS's future and that's now O.K. for me.

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RoryM0
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02 Jun 2021

DaveyG wrote:
02 Jun 2021
So it's your fault! ;p I love having Reason as an RRP but I would like the DAW improved too.
Rory, as you seem to control what RS do please could you put in a word for VST3 and VST MIDI. Ta. :thumbs_up:
Haha yeah my fault! Or... Proof that RS do indeed listen.... TO ME.

OK if you're listening Mattias, Ryan, James.... Can you give us (me) VST3 and MIDI out of VSTs please. Thanks :D

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guitfnky
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02 Jun 2021

the one place I don't need hi res is in the RRP. I'm glad I didn't give in and buy the 11>>12 discount upgrade. the features being tested are either not relevant to me, or underwhelming, so far. yes, super early, still, and I hope my mind changes, but right now, I stand to save $130, instead of just $40.
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artotaku
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02 Jun 2021

Gardinski wrote:
01 Jun 2021
My guess is that they've tallied up the figures and determined that the DAW aspect of it has hit market saturation, and that (perhaps) they've simply not been attracting many brand new customers in recent editions. It's feasible (and again, this is pure guesswork) that the bulk of their DAW sales have been the same old users upgrading, rather than fresh blood coming in and expanding the userbase at the rate they'd prefer to see.

If that's the case, and given that the pool of established, long-term users is likely to continue upgrading (natural wastage notwithstanding), then the only option they have to increase their market share is to try a different tactic. Repackage the software as a plugin, and thus tap into a potentially huge sea of prospective customers from 'rival' DAWs.

Suddenly, those rivals aren't really rivals at all, but a lucrative hunting ground from which fresh meat can be harvested. Everybody wins. More customers equals greater re-investment in the software, R&D, etc. Loyal old-timers can look forward to many more years of updates and a healthy future for a DAW which might otherwise have withered and died over time. New users will jump onboard and (hopefully) rock the boat just enough to keep things lively, and ongoing innovation will be encouraged.

I don't see any indication that the DAW is about to be dropped. If that were to happen, it would be financial suicide, because there's clearly a massive pool of existing clients which has been built up over the past 20 years. RS are not daft enough to throw that all away.

Personally, I have no great desire to use any other DAW. Reason is where I feel happiest, and most able to relax, create and expand my musical ideas. The other DAWs I've tried over the years (Cubase way back in the late 90s; Reaper more recently) feel cold and sterile to me, and utterly uninspiring. Reason is warm, stimulating, and its endless tweakability rewards experimentation. I never cease to be amazed and intoxicated by it. I'm pretty much guaranteed a crazy Eureka moment within minutes, pretty much every time I boot it up.

....but nevertheless, I truly believe that opening it up to a potential landslide of tens of thousands of new users is a healthy thing, and the best guarantee we have of Reason's longevity.

Look at the last few in-house REs.... Friktion and Algoritm are spectacular instruments. If they'd been palming us off with a few crappy plugins like (I'm sorry to say this) Klang/Pangea etc, then that would represent a worrying turn of events, and I'd be concerned that things are winding down at Reason HQ (as some people seem to take a weird glee in suggesting). But that's clearly not the case.
I think you summed it up very nicely and with a practical/realistic viewpoint.

Also, if Reason 12 topic is all about improving the rack experience for RRP and standalone users and this is done and pretty much perfect (upgraded combinator, sampler, browser, HD GUI is quite a thing) - what do we think they want to do in Reason 13? The show must go on. My guess is that 13 will be mostly about sequencer improvements while there will be a some devices here and there including VST3 integration to please and motiviate RRP only users to upgrade.

I think there are some more areas where future releases or point updates can be focused on, e. g. improved RE SDK experiences for developers, improved Remote/MIDI controller integration in RRP/standalone.

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jam-s
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02 Jun 2021

artotaku wrote:
02 Jun 2021
Also, if Reason 12 topic is all about improving the rack experience for RRP and standalone users and this is done and pretty much perfect (upgraded combinator, sampler, browser, HD GUI is quite a thing) - what do we think they want to do in Reason 13? The show must go on. ...
Reason 13 will be all about exciting new instruments like Radical Kazoo and A-List Cowbells. :twisted:

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Billy+
Posts: 4157
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02 Jun 2021

guitfnky wrote:
02 Jun 2021
the one place I don't need hi res is in the RRP. I'm glad I didn't give in and buy the 11>>12 discount upgrade. the features being tested are either not relevant to me, or underwhelming, so far. yes, super early, still, and I hope my mind changes, but right now, I stand to save $130, instead of just $40.
I'm hoping for a pay what you want release for V11 owners and based on the current features I'm looking to save £130 and skip the install till a point update makes it worth while. As things stand that's an OS upgrade and new audio io, so it's really going to need to be worth it.....

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Gardinski
Posts: 340
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03 Jun 2021

jam-s wrote:
02 Jun 2021

Reason 13 will be all about exciting new instruments like Radical Kazoo and A-List Cowbells. :twisted:
Assuming human society survives long enough to see Reason 13, I'm holding out for "Deliverance Banjo": the perfect RE for capturing that post-apocalyptic vibe when all the cannibal hillbillies descend upon us, as they inevitably must.

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