New Sampler Thread

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AnotherMathias
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Post 21 May 2021

esselfortium wrote:
20 May 2021
joeyluck wrote:
19 May 2021
I really want any sampler in Reason where I can assign legato samples. Not sure this will offer that.
There are so many different and incompatible ways of recording and implementing legato, and so many intricacies of setting it up that would need to be exposed to instrument developers. The only way to properly do this would be to implement scripting in the sampler itself, which I doubt is part of the plan for this sampler. That's what REs are for. (Though an open sampler with scripting in Reason would be fun!)
A legato sample setup can be as simple as the ability to flag a sample or a group as “legato”. That sample or group will then only be triggered whenever a newnote is played while another one is already being held down. And then an opposite flag, “first note” to compliment.
For example, a flute would have a sample with breath on the “first note” layer, and a sample without (could be the same sample, but with a start offset to skip past the breath) on the “legato” layer.

That’s how the SFZ file format is set up, and it works quite well. Exactly the kind of “simple but complex” feature I’d like to see in a new Reason sampler, but most likely won’t get.

Yonatan
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Post 21 May 2021

A new sampler in 2021 could be whatever...
I would put my bet on that this one will be targeted to some (realtime) sample manipulation that can be used on the fly and maybe live performance.
Would be surprized but amazed if new sampler would replace NNXT. Maybe we will see an upgrade to NNXT someday for Kontakt-alike beast.

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Jackjackdaw
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Post 21 May 2021

The placeholder graphic suggests to me it will be more of an sp1200 inspired thing than a multi sampler.

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Ottostrom
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Post 21 May 2021

Yonatan wrote:
21 May 2021
A new sampler in 2021 could be whatever...
I would put my bet on that this one will be targeted to some (realtime) sample manipulation that can be used on the fly and maybe live performance.
Would be surprized but amazed if new sampler would replace NNXT. Maybe we will see an upgrade to NNXT someday for Kontakt-alike beast.
The wording in the blog post definitely makes it sound like a device meant for creative, real-time sample manipulation.

"This sampler goes way beyond what's available in Reason today. It's designed to quickly explore and play back sounds in interesting ways—be that from your collection of samples, something recorded on the fly, or even an export of the very track you're working on. There are loads of cool features in there, like our legendary time stretch and brand new ways to play your samples"

The part about "even an export of the very track you're working on" especially peaked my interest, as it seems like an oddly specific thing to mention if it didn't hint at taking this "export" as some sort of real-time input.
But yeah, I would be very surprised if this new sampler was actually aimed at sample library use like NN-XT.

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plaamook
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Post 21 May 2021

Suits me. I’m not a user of sample libraries. A new mangler is always an interesting proposition.

Sp1200 however seems like it’s got a lot of Lofi character. Never used one but I’d find it off putting if it’s designed to emulate such a thing. I’d prefer a clean output that we can add our own character to.
At times I have seen what man thought he saw.

Yonatan
Posts: 1384
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Post 21 May 2021

Ottostrom wrote:
21 May 2021
Yonatan wrote:
21 May 2021
A new sampler in 2021 could be whatever...
I would put my bet on that this one will be targeted to some (realtime) sample manipulation that can be used on the fly and maybe live performance.
Would be surprized but amazed if new sampler would replace NNXT. Maybe we will see an upgrade to NNXT someday for Kontakt-alike beast.
The wording in the blog post definitely makes it sound like a device meant for creative, real-time sample manipulation.

"This sampler goes way beyond what's available in Reason today. It's designed to quickly explore and play back sounds in interesting ways—be that from your collection of samples, something recorded on the fly, or even an export of the very track you're working on. There are loads of cool features in there, like our legendary time stretch and brand new ways to play your samples"

The part about "even an export of the very track you're working on" especially peaked my interest, as it seems like an oddly specific thing to mention if it didn't hint at taking this "export" as some sort of real-time input.
But yeah, I would be very surprised if this new sampler was actually aimed at sample library use like NN-XT.
Thanks for sharing! Yes it surely shows what direction, and I must say the same about ”export” , it really sounds like a fun and creative expression and that some of its approach could very well touch on a remix feeling even if not being a session view as ABL11.
Surely RS will keep innovating into expanding Reason for more and more of live jamming and flexible arranging later on. But a new creative sampler and a customizable combinator are great steps on the way.

loopeydoug
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Post 21 May 2021

I can't say I won't be disappointed if the new sampler doesn't address multi sampling. I very rarely use samplers with single samples and the NN-XT is pretty cumbersome in this day and age. However, I welcome new possibilities in the sampler department even if they don't necessarily suit my needs. It'll be a good all-around addition to the toolbox.

AnotherMathias
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Post 21 May 2021

Yeah, as I suspected I’m in the vast minority in wishing for an NN-XT v2 rather than a chop-and-mangle toy box.
Perhaps I will find some kind of use for the new sampler. But when I tried out Serato Sample a while ago, it did nothing that I had any use for, and I suspect that this is the way Reason is going.

So Reason users don’t use (or make) sampled acoustic or electric instruments any more? No flugelhorns, Fairlights, or Farfisas?

madmacman
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Post 21 May 2021

AnotherMathias wrote:
21 May 2021
So Reason users don’t use (or make) sampled acoustic or electric instruments any more? No flugelhorns, Fairlights, or Farfisas?
Do users of other DAW‘s create complex multisampled libraries? I think that ship has sailed with the availability of Kontakt (Player). You can have tons of sounds, even many for free. Why should one take the tedious task of building such sounds themself? Even the top vendors of orchestra libraries have free entry level packs of their major products.

For „the rest of us“ the existing samplers are sufficient.

EdGrip
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Post 21 May 2021

I think it must be a very tiny minority.
If you own a Farfisa, you'd just record the performance on the Farfisa. Wouldn't you? If you can play the flugelhorn and own a flugelhorn, record your performance on the flugelhorn.
If you don't own and can't play the flugelhorn, are you going to hire a flugelhorn player (and potentially some expensive outboard) to record one just to make an NN-XT instrument? Why do that, when there are people whose whole business is making multisampled libraries who would do it better? If the answer is that you have something very specific in mind... Just get the flugelhorn player to be a session musician on your track.

These are the things I think about when I think about making multisample instruments. I could imagine doing a basic version of my mum's piano, for posterity. But I think it's a pretty safe bet that the fraction of DAW users rolling their own instrument libraries is fewer than 0.1%.

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bxbrkrz
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Post 21 May 2021

AnotherMathias wrote:
21 May 2021
Yeah, as I suspected I’m in the vast minority in wishing for an NN-XT v2 rather than a chop-and-mangle toy box.
Perhaps I will find some kind of use for the new sampler. But when I tried out Serato Sample a while ago, it did nothing that I had any use for, and I suspect that this is the way Reason is going.

So Reason users don’t use (or make) sampled acoustic or electric instruments any more? No flugelhorns, Fairlights, or Farfisas?
Image

I welcome NN-XT v2, if it's not a TikTok Edition.
757365206c6f67696320746f207365656b20616e73776572732075736520726561736f6e20746f2066696e6420776973646f6d

EdGrip
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Post 21 May 2021

These Tik Tok kids these days, they'd rather chop up some generic beats than multisample a flugelhorn to make pseudo-flugelhorn keyboard music.

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Jackjackdaw
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Post 21 May 2021

EdGrip wrote:
21 May 2021
These Tik Tok kids these days, they'd rather chop up some generic beats than multisample a flugelhorn to make pseudo-flugelhorn keyboard music.
:lol:

AnotherMathias
Posts: 58
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Post 21 May 2021

EdGrip wrote:
21 May 2021
I think it must be a very tiny minority.
If you own a Farfisa, you'd just record the performance on the Farfisa. Wouldn't you? If you can play the flugelhorn and own a flugelhorn, record your performance on the flugelhorn.
If you don't own and can't play the flugelhorn, are you going to hire a flugelhorn player (and potentially some expensive outboard) to record one just to make an NN-XT instrument? Why do that, when there are people whose whole business is making multisampled libraries who would do it better? If the answer is that you have something very specific in mind... Just get the flugelhorn player to be a session musician on your track.

These are the things I think about when I think about making multisample instruments. I could imagine doing a basic version of my mum's piano, for posterity. But I think it's a pretty safe bet that the fraction of DAW users rolling their own instrument libraries is fewer than 0.1%.
I don't have a Farfisa, but I have a pretty rare 60's Ace Tone TOP-8, a combo organ made by the company that became Roland. I've sampled that one with quite a lot of detail, and I feel that it makes a better representation than the Jiggery Pokery combo organ REs. Perhaps I'm too much of a perfectionist to be happy with much of the work of others?
Sure, I can go down to my basement, hook up the Ace Tone to an amp, mic it, record my organ part (hopefully well enough), and use that. But it's nice to be able to play it, quantize it, alter the sound, etc, from my laptop. So sampling it is worthwhile.

I have a lot of fun scouring the web for well-sampled raw material. If it's a set of WAVs or AIFs, I can own the instrument!

Kontakt is a pretty bloated dinosaur, pretty unpleasant to deal with in my opinion, and I don't enjoy searching around countless free libraries - some of them are good, but often they are fairly weak, and when they are good they're often massive as well. A lot of 5gb mandolin libraries! I bet the Reason guys could come up with something better.

I think that having som DIY spirit isn't all that weird. I build my own guitars, bake my own bread, and brew my own beer. If doing something yourself isn't fun, why bother making our own music?
In the Piano Book project, over 100 people have sampled their own pianos and other instruments, and shared them. None of them in NN-XT format, but with a good sampler they can all quickly be imported and used.

But really, it's not primarily about making your own libraries. It's about having a competent and modern instrument sampler to play all those sounds. Needing to buy, use, and like, Kontakt to do that makes Reason feel a bit incomplete.
NN-XT can do it, but I think it deserves a serious update.

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QVprod
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Post 22 May 2021

AnotherMathias wrote:
21 May 2021

But really, it's not primarily about making your own libraries. It's about having a competent and modern instrument sampler to play all those sounds. Needing to buy, use, and like, Kontakt to do that makes Reason feel a bit incomplete.
NN-XT can do it, but I think it deserves a serious update.

Agreed on purpose of having an updated NNXT, being libraries that could be created for it. However, it’s unlikely we’d get Kontakt quality instruments for it. The beauty of Kontakt for most is the paid libraries for it both by Native Instruments and 3rd party. If you’ve mainly browsed around for the free Kontakt libraries, you’ve missed out. Most of them are pretty crap. Otherwise, stuff like the piano book libraries you mention could very much be mapped in the NNXT. If memory serves right I believe he (Christian) was using EXS24 in the videos I saw which is not any better in functionality than NNXT. I do think the stock sampled instruments in Reason could use a serious update, but a newer NNXT would just be a convenience. It isn’t really required for most things. So I have to disagree on the Reason feeling incomplete part. Most DAW users are using Kontakt, UVI/Falcon...etc... or a dedicated plugin for sampled instruments.

It doesn’t look like it will, but it would be great if the new sampler could handle multi samples to at least some degree though. It does seem however from the blog that it’s expected to be mostly be fodder for Combinator 2.0 as far as the built in library is concerned

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Faastwalker
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Post 22 May 2021

I've no idea!! :-/ I've never been a big user of samplers. But I'm excited to see the new sampler in R12. I imagine it will be to samplers/sampling what Algoritm is to FM synthesis. I imagine the new R12 sampler will have a similar approach in making sampling more accessible and fun. I can't imagine it being the NN-XT. Interested to see what it's all about for sure :thumbs_up:

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Jagwah
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Post 22 May 2021

plaamook wrote:
21 May 2021
A new mangler is always an interesting proposition.
Yeah If I can mangle things in new ways I'll be happy.

madmacman
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Post 22 May 2021

AnotherMathias wrote:
21 May 2021
I think that having som DIY spirit isn't all that weird. I build my own guitars, bake my own bread, and brew my own beer. If doing something yourself isn't fun, why bother making our own music?
Ok, I get most of your points. They are valid. But you can't generalize the DIY idea (and the fun of it) to everything. I can enjoy making music, but use presets only (in fact I don't - just as an example). Or I could be a talented painting artist but I don't mix my own colors. And so on. The examples you mentioned of yourself underline your very special approach which is totally fine. But probably also emphasizes the minority status.

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plaamook
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Post 22 May 2021

I’d actually like a multisample sampler w a Grain style visual so you could convolve different things in one box w out multiple samplers lines up in a combi. I never do that. I could. I should. But I don’t.
I’m too used to the visuals of Grain to go back to an NNXT set up.
At times I have seen what man thought he saw.

AnotherMathias
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Post 22 May 2021

madmacman wrote:
22 May 2021
Ok, I get most of your points. They are valid. But you can't generalize the DIY idea (and the fun of it) to everything. I can enjoy making music, but use presets only (in fact I don't - just as an example). Or I could be a talented painting artist but I don't mix my own colors. And so on. The examples you mentioned of yourself underline your very special approach which is totally fine. But probably also emphasizes the minority status.
Seriously, I never realized that something I enjoy a lot, building sample instruments (from scratch or from found materials), is something most people don't enjoy at all!

Like you said, everyone has a different idea of what's fun and what's a chore. I like jigsaw puzzles, but they must seem utterly pointless to a lot of people.

AnotherMathias
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Joined: 29 Sep 2020

Post 22 May 2021

QVprod wrote:
22 May 2021
Agreed on purpose of having an updated NNXT, being libraries that could be created for it. However, it’s unlikely we’d get Kontakt quality instruments for it. The beauty of Kontakt for most is the paid libraries for it both by Native Instruments and 3rd party. If you’ve mainly browsed around for the free Kontakt libraries, you’ve missed out. Most of them are pretty crap. Otherwise, stuff like the piano book libraries you mention could very much be mapped in the NNXT. If memory serves right I believe he (Christian) was using EXS24 in the videos I saw which is not any better in functionality than NNXT. I do think the stock sampled instruments in Reason could use a serious update, but a newer NNXT would just be a convenience. It isn’t really required for most things. So I have to disagree on the Reason feeling incomplete part. Most DAW users are using Kontakt, UVI/Falcon...etc... or a dedicated plugin for sampled instruments.

It doesn’t look like it will, but it would be great if the new sampler could handle multi samples to at least some degree though. It does seem however from the blog that it’s expected to be mostly be fodder for Combinator 2.0 as far as the built in library is concerned
I am surprised that people aren't more cranky about the absolute dominance of Kontakt. If it were a nicer device, perhaps, but it's really feeling old and clunky to use for anything more than opening big libraries. I'm slowly learning the scripting language and UI design, but it's not a lot of fun. And it's not cheap. This is why I prefer to use either NN-XT, or to do coding in SFZ (free, and underrated).
For DAWs there are at least 5-6 big companies to choose from, but for sample players, really only one. Halion and Falcon is trying to compete a bit, but they too are cumbersome to use, and they are both bloated, trying to also do every synthesis and FX in the world under one umbrella.

This is where Reason could find some new professional musician clients. A new instrument sampler, together with all the other things that the rack offers even in its most basic form, using the UI of the new combinator, really would have a shot at giving Kontakt some competition. It would take a while to build up a big library, but it could be done more quickly than it did with Kontakt, since they user interface is infinitely much more approachable. It wouldn't do some of the things you can do with Kontakt scripting, but generally you could come close.

For Logic Pro, a proper sampler is included - it used to be ESX24, but now it's been significantly updated and is called just Sampler. It comes with a significant high quality library, and a fair amount of additional content is available for it. It does offer more functionality than NN-XT - articulation groups, dual multimode filters, a comprehensive matrix, an integrated sample editor. No Kontakt needed here!

I use Logic, so why don't I just use Sampler? For one, I simply don't like the interface - they made some pretty bizarre choices for usability. This is where the Reason programmers generally do so much better. The clever choices made way back when they made NN-XT can speed up the tedious bits, and encourage creativity. I can only imagine what inventive approaches they could make for a new NN-XT, similar to how they reinvented FM with Algoritm, without dumbing it down.

The second reason I don't use the Logic Sampler is that it's not cross-platform. In addition to Logic, I also use Studio One and Reason, so if I were to make my go-to sampler the Logic Sampler, I couldn't use my library in any other DAW. Studio One also has an included sampler, Presence XT. It's really quite good as well (but needs some more work to be complete), but again, I can't use that outside of Studio One. Reason is better in this respect, since we have the rack plugin.

Anyway, enough ranting about something that likely won't happen.
I'm sure Reason Studios thought it through, and decided that a quick to use mangle box is what the people want.

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QVprod
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Post 22 May 2021

AnotherMathias wrote:
22 May 2021
QVprod wrote:
22 May 2021
Agreed on purpose of having an updated NNXT, being libraries that could be created for it. However, it’s unlikely we’d get Kontakt quality instruments for it. The beauty of Kontakt for most is the paid libraries for it both by Native Instruments and 3rd party. If you’ve mainly browsed around for the free Kontakt libraries, you’ve missed out. Most of them are pretty crap. Otherwise, stuff like the piano book libraries you mention could very much be mapped in the NNXT. If memory serves right I believe he (Christian) was using EXS24 in the videos I saw which is not any better in functionality than NNXT. I do think the stock sampled instruments in Reason could use a serious update, but a newer NNXT would just be a convenience. It isn’t really required for most things. So I have to disagree on the Reason feeling incomplete part. Most DAW users are using Kontakt, UVI/Falcon...etc... or a dedicated plugin for sampled instruments.

It doesn’t look like it will, but it would be great if the new sampler could handle multi samples to at least some degree though. It does seem however from the blog that it’s expected to be mostly be fodder for Combinator 2.0 as far as the built in library is concerned
I am surprised that people aren't more cranky about the absolute dominance of Kontakt. If it were a nicer device, perhaps, but it's really feeling old and clunky to use for anything more than opening big libraries. I'm slowly learning the scripting language and UI design, but it's not a lot of fun. And it's not cheap. This is why I prefer to use either NN-XT, or to do coding in SFZ (free, and underrated).
For DAWs there are at least 5-6 big companies to choose from, but for sample players, really only one. Halion and Falcon is trying to compete a bit, but they too are cumbersome to use, and they are both bloated, trying to also do every synthesis and FX in the world under one umbrella.

This is where Reason could find some new professional musician clients. A new instrument sampler, together with all the other things that the rack offers even in its most basic form, using the UI of the new combinator, really would have a shot at giving Kontakt some competition. It would take a while to build up a big library, but it could be done more quickly than it did with Kontakt, since they user interface is infinitely much more approachable. It wouldn't do some of the things you can do with Kontakt scripting, but generally you could come close.
No real reason to be upset about Kontakt’s dominance. There are several libraries you can buy without actually buying Kontakt. And there are other companies who are just making their own plugins now so that you don’t need a sampler. There being things you can’t do without Kontakt scripting is pretty much the point. As far as libraries being developed, The RE SDK already allows for Kontakt-like instruments so that lack of content is purely lack of interest. Same with Presence XT. Though I think Presonus shot themselves in the foot when they charged extra for the editor. I haven’t played with Logic’s Sampler as of yet, but the differences look to mostly be a UI overhaul. They did make some nice additions to it though.

AnotherMathias
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Post 22 May 2021

QVprod wrote:
22 May 2021
No real reason to be upset about Kontakt’s dominance. There are several libraries you can buy without actually buying Kontakt. And there are other companies who are just making their own plugins now so that you don’t need a sampler. There being things you can’t do without Kontakt scripting is pretty much the point. As far as libraries being developed, The RE SDK already allows for Kontakt-like instruments so that lack of content is purely lack of interest. Same with Presence XT. Though I think Presonus shot themselves in the foot when they charged extra for the editor. I haven’t played with Logic’s Sampler as of yet, but the differences look to mostly be a UI overhaul. They did make some nice additions to it though.
"Upset" may not be how I'd describe it. Perhaps "dissatisfied".

I never buy any libraries (and don't think I'd buy library-style plugins either), there's just too much good free raw material out there. It's just usually organized poorly, or the patch design is often a bit crap.
While the lack of scripting would prevent the Reason-based alternative from doing exactly what Kontakt does, all the Reason capabilities (like players and effects) allows it to do things that Kontakt couldn't. Much of the scripting in Kontakt is just silly cosmetics anyway.

I totally agree about Presonus shooing themselves in the foot, charging extra for the Presence XT editor. I bought it, of course, because, apparently, I'm the one guy who likes that kind of thing!

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Timmy Crowne
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Post 22 May 2021

What Spitfire has done with their LABS series shows how great a new entry into sampled instruments can be. (And that’s for free, no less!) Of course, LABS is basically a rompler but if RS partnered with a high-quality instrument company like Spitfire they could release or sell expansions to the new sampler that could carve out a niche that doesn’t really require them to outcompete Kontakt. If RS released new libraries monthly via the Reason+ sound packs, that might actually be a financial windfall. High-quality acoustic library drops would convince many users to subscribe to Reason+, myself included.

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QVprod
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Post 22 May 2021

Timmy Crowne wrote:
22 May 2021
What Spitfire has done with their LABS series shows how great a new entry into sampled instruments can be. (And that’s for free, no less!) Of course, LABS is basically a rompler but if RS partnered with a high-quality instrument company like Spitfire they could release or sell expansions to the new sampler that could carve out a niche that doesn’t really require them to outcompete Kontakt. If RS released new libraries monthly via the Reason+ sound packs, that might actually be a financial windfall. High-quality acoustic library drops would convince many users to subscribe to Reason+, myself included.
I’ll preface that I’m in favor of a newer NNXT. However, the Spitfire Labs stuff could very much be pulled off now in NNXT since they’re not incredibly large in size and there’s not much to the UI. And the new Combinator does open up some more possibilities. And also, there’s nothing stopping REs of high quality acoustic stuff pretty much at all. There’s a quite a few sample based REs in the shop now. Just comes down to interest from developers/designers. Pack creators have choice in what they contribute.

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