Reason 12 is coming!

This forum is for discussing Reason. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
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avasopht
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Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 09 Jun 2021

I've felt a little disillusioned with RS lately. You'd have expected massive growth in resources with the sale to Verdane, but it feels like it's moving a little more slowly. Maybe they're working on a game-changer in secret. I don't know, but they could have easily invested in real growth.

In the last year and a half, I've been buying VSTs and whatnot and even trying out other DAWs.

I've got Studio One Artist (which is very capable) and more recently, Maschine. I could easily migrate already, but Reason still holds dear to me.

Truth is, everything has bugbears, and I've gotten used to Reason's (I've been using it for nearly 20 years now).

Paying content creators for their Reason+ contributions is a good start. But without an offering that covers the bases of a keyboard workstation, Komplete, and controller integrated workflows, it could easily fade away into obsolescence.

The game has changed. Hardware integration is a must. Comprehensive commercial-grade sound libraries are a bare minimum (though it seems they are aware of this). Buying uJam and the Sonic Reality library would have been a smart move.

Don't get me wrong, Reason is still powerful to me. My Refill library is pretty solid, and if push comes to shove, I think I could get by with them. And some of the REs from developers like LecticPanda have no comparison.

But the browser and loading times are not cool. I was loading gigantic EWQL patches faster than I could load a simple Sonic Reality one. It's half the reason I felt I needed the Triton VST (well, Xpand!2 is pretty good).

Either way, I feel a misalignment with the changing needs of music creators.

APE is gold. Integrating ReCycle with the timeline has changed the game. Reason has a workable workflow and the rack is unrivalled when it comes to creating custom processing paths. Friktion is highly underrated. The smart move would have been packaging that as a VST with RRP Lite.

But I anticipate using Reason mostly as a plugin in the future (and sparingly).

Oh yeah ... Reason 12 (just thought I'd make this post relevant to the topic 😜).
Last edited by avasopht on 09 Jun 2021, edited 1 time in total.
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Carpainter
Posts: 48
Joined: 28 Sep 2019

Post 09 Jun 2021

avasopht wrote:
09 Jun 2021
Reason has a workable workflow and the rack is unrivalled when it comes to creating custom processing paths.
Reaktor and Max blow Reason out of the water in that respect, but Reason exists in its own space: somewhere between a DAW and a modular software studio. I'm an avid Max user, but there's something about Reason's immediacy that always draws me back in. The Rack strikes a good balance between usability and depth, and the DAW portion is usually 'good enough' for me.

I completely understand people's frustration with the direction that Propellerhead is going with Reason, though. I've felt that way since Reason 6, but I've come back twice since then: for VST support and plugin functionality. If I was more tied to Reason-as-DAW than Reason-as-Rack, I probably would have tapped out long ago.

DaveyG
Posts: 986
Joined: 03 May 2020

Post 10 Jun 2021

avasopht wrote:
09 Jun 2021
. You'd have expected massive growth in resources with the sale to Verdane
That's not what venture capitalists do. They specialise in cutting costs and maximising short-term profits to make the company "more valuable" to investors then look to sell it on for a profit. They have absolutely no interest in anything longer term. When you sell your company to venture capitalists you sell the soul of the company. Reason is destined to become just another brand name in a larger company's portfolio.

But getting back on topic I agree that Reason is heading towards becoming just a plugin which happens to ship with a (neglected) standalone mode. The problem with that is the price. There are not many plugins that cost that much, regardless of what they do. Sure it includes a lot of stuff but anyone with a DAW already has lots of stuff and does not need most of the stock effects and instruments in standard Reason. I guess the subscription is one solution to the price but even that is not cheap. So I'm not sure where it all ends. Pushing your customers towards using the product in other DAWs is effectively pushing your customers towards the world of VST/AU.

Edit: I just tried to find a list of what is included in "standard" Reason 11. I did not succeed. If you choose "Reason" on the website then click "instruments/effects you get a list of everything that is in Reason+ and you have to click on each one separately to see whether it is included in standard Reason. I could not see any way for a potential buyer to see exactly what they would get with the standard version. Is there a comparison page anywhere that I missed?

deeplink
Posts: 353
Joined: 08 Jul 2020
Location: Dubai

Post 10 Jun 2021

DaveyG wrote:
10 Jun 2021
avasopht wrote:
09 Jun 2021
. You'd have expected massive growth in resources with the sale to Verdane
Edit: I just tried to find a list of what is included in "standard" Reason 11. I did not succeed. If you choose "Reason" on the website then click "instruments/effects you get a list of everything that is in Reason+ and you have to click on each one separately to see whether it is included in standard Reason. I could not see any way for a potential buyer to see exactly what they would get with the standard version. Is there a comparison page anywhere that I missed?
This is what you're looking for https://www.reasonstudios.com/shop/product/reason-11/

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Jackjackdaw
Posts: 878
Joined: 12 Jan 2019

Post 10 Jun 2021

I realised soon after I bought Reason that the sequencer was not going to cut it for me, mainly the midi limitations rather than folders and piano roll stuff. So I don't mind if RS want to brush it under the rug and focus on the RRP. The trouble is the RRP has a ton of glaring omissions and lack of functionality as well! I am really keen to discover the new combi and sampler but if they don't bring multi timbral midi and sidechain input sampling to the RRP then what's the point?

slic
Posts: 17
Joined: 01 Jun 2021

Post 10 Jun 2021

Carpainter wrote:
09 Jun 2021
avasopht wrote:
09 Jun 2021
Reason has a workable workflow and the rack is unrivalled when it comes to creating custom processing paths.
Reaktor and Max blow Reason out of the water in that respect, but Reason exists in its own space: somewhere between a DAW and a modular software studio. I'm an avid Max user, but there's something about Reason's immediacy that always draws me back in. The Rack strikes a good balance between usability and depth, and the DAW portion is usually 'good enough' for me.

I completely understand people's frustration with the direction that Propellerhead is going with Reason, though. I've felt that way since Reason 6, but I've come back twice since then: for VST support and plugin functionality. If I was more tied to Reason-as-DAW than Reason-as-Rack, I probably would have tapped out long ago.
Bitwig has the best balance of power and usability/immediacy for me. MAX is amazing but unless you use it a lot it's hard to keep up to speed (Reaktor is pretty much the same Reaktor Blocks is more like Reason)

Reason is what it is, a hardware emulation with the ability to freely route audio and CV (which can be complicated and creative enough for most most 'musical' needs). If they want to compete with Live/Bitwig they would probably need to introduce a 'Re' maker with a visual programming format aimed at non-coders...now that would change the game a bit...

I also came back to Reason for the Rack but find the DAW simple to use and good enough for simple things like just recording my ideas...

electrofux
Posts: 750
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jun 2021

Jackjackdaw wrote:
10 Jun 2021
I realised soon after I bought Reason that the sequencer was not going to cut it for me, mainly the midi limitations rather than folders and piano roll stuff. So I don't mind if RS want to brush it under the rug and focus on the RRP. The trouble is the RRP has a ton of glaring omissions and lack of functionality as well! I am really keen to discover the new combi and sampler but if they don't bring multi timbral midi and sidechain input sampling to the RRP then what's the point?
I would switch too to Ableton or Bitwig and use Reason VST but while it would be a step forward in Sequencing possiblities, for me it would be a massive step backwards in terms of hardware integration. The RRP has an underwhelming Midi integration. The DAW is not aware of what is in the Container be it an Europa or an Antidote so it is hard or next to impossible to write a good script for it. You cant browse patches remotely and you are limited to a fixed number of remotable items per device in the RRP.

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sonicbyte
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Location: Argentina

Post 10 Jun 2021

What is bother me isn't this update, witch seems great for many, I get it, the HD graphics, the combinator stuff, and all bells and whistles... I think is all great and necessary...
But what really bothers me is the lack of open communication about the future of Reason for the "hardcore Reason customer", the ones that don't want to use another DAW, and don't care RPP as plugin (like me)...and just wanted Reason as a solid DAW with its beautiful inspiring workflow. Of course I understand they want new customers, the RPP is a great idea to make other people join Reason...

But why we haven't an official word about the rest of us? For what I'm reading here and earlier on other posts, I'm not alone, we're lots of "that kind" of user... so why Reason as a company can't simple comment IF they will focus into the sequencer in future 12.x releases or whatever version come next ? That alone could alleviate our fears...what makes me sad is that omission probably is a statement by itself.

Ryan and Mattias have said in the past "Reason as a DAW will no go anywhere" or something like that when the RPP was released, but it sounds more like a wish than a concrete roadmap or company's plan.

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Jackjackdaw
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Post 10 Jun 2021

I agree they should be more straight forward addressing people's concerns. Like straight up acknowledge the short comings and be honest about if they are going to fix them or not. Publish a road map and what not. I think everyone feels RS treats customers with a certain amount of contempt.

nebraskafire
Posts: 16
Joined: 10 Mar 2021

Post 10 Jun 2021

What I m wondering if there going to be a "plugin company" like Native. How does the next updates look like? Every new version a new instrument, a effect, some refills and some performance updates? I mean I bougth NI Komplete 11 and never updated it because there was no need to. I have all instruments I need and Komplete 12 and 13 were never worth the update money. The plugin market is so growded and most of the companys are making like endless sales for their stuff. Sometime I think they dont realise what potential they have, in a world that longs for analog hardware emulation why not make a analog-style-digital DAW thats fun to use. I mean I like using reason but just for Ideas and then I bring everything to Cubase because it has more advance feature to work with.

deeplink
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Location: Dubai

Post 10 Jun 2021

They did say the we're adding workflow features when they announced R+.

Perhaps they haven't announced as workflow features are not quite headline features

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orthodox
RE Developer
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Post 10 Jun 2021

Jackjackdaw wrote:
10 Jun 2021
I agree they should be more straight forward addressing people's concerns. Like straight up acknowledge the short comings and be honest about if they are going to fix them or not. Publish a road map and what not. I think everyone feels RS treats customers with a certain amount of contempt.
Contempt is fine by me. I am free to either buy what they offer or not to buy. For my part, I don't feel like I'm telling them where to go. That's a healthy type of company-customer relationship.
Active Reason+ subscriber with (hopefully) early R12 access
Reason 11 Suite gathering dust on the shelf

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Jackjackdaw
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Post 10 Jun 2021

I get that. Buy it or don't buy it , simple. I also don't care really what they do or don't do. But I also enjoy good customer service and being part of a community. RS could do a lot better at the first which would contribute a lot to the second.

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orthodox
RE Developer
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Post 10 Jun 2021

Jackjackdaw wrote:
10 Jun 2021
I get that. Buy it or don't buy it , simple. I also don't care really what they do or don't do. But I also enjoy good customer service and being part of a community. RS could do a lot better at the first which would contribute a lot to the second.
I just doubt they could, really. They have only a couple of persons that do PR, probably as a part-time job, they must be busy with other things. If I were them, I'd be extremely cautious about making any promise about the future of Reason. In development, it's like taking a loan, which would bind you for a long time.
Active Reason+ subscriber with (hopefully) early R12 access
Reason 11 Suite gathering dust on the shelf

Carpainter
Posts: 48
Joined: 28 Sep 2019

Post 10 Jun 2021

nebraskafire wrote:
10 Jun 2021
The plugin market is so crowded and most of the companies are making like endless sales for their stuff. Sometime I think they dont realise what potential they have, in a world that longs for analog hardware emulation why not make a analog-style-digital DAW thats fun to use. I mean I like using reason but just for Ideas and then I bring everything to Cubase because it has more advance feature to work with.
Something has to give at some point. You can't fill a market with mostly identical products forever. There haven't been any innovations in the DAW space since Reason and Ableton Live came out, and Live was more of an elegant refinement of existing DAW concepts than a groundbreaking piece of software.

In the '90s, there was a feeling that music software was going to change everything, There are some pieces of software that fulfilled that promise to a certain extent (Max being my favorite), but all that music software really did was make things easier and more affordable/accessible. The software might be shinier now, but the core concepts that developers work off of have remained mostly the same for more than 20 years.

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guitfnky
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Post 10 Jun 2021

Carpainter wrote:
10 Jun 2021
In the '90s, there was a feeling that music software was going to change everything, There are some pieces of software that fulfilled that promise to a certain extent (Max being my favorite), but all that music software really did was make things easier and more affordable/accessible. The software might be shinier now, but the core concepts that developers work off of have remained mostly the same for more than 20 years.
I think it did change everything—*because* it made music production more accessible. for better or worse, popular music has largely shifted away from guitar-centric rock music to more electronic and hybrid sounds. rock used to be one of, if not *the* dominant force in the music industry, but now it’s cheaper and easier for people to get started with a free DAW and a few soft synths, than having to learn how to play an instrument, and find a bunch of like minded people to make sounds with. the kinds of music out there have followed suit.

PhillipOrdonez
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Joined: 20 Oct 2017
Location: Norway

Post 10 Jun 2021

guitfnky wrote:
10 Jun 2021
Carpainter wrote:
10 Jun 2021
In the '90s, there was a feeling that music software was going to change everything, There are some pieces of software that fulfilled that promise to a certain extent (Max being my favorite), but all that music software really did was make things easier and more affordable/accessible. The software might be shinier now, but the core concepts that developers work off of have remained mostly the same for more than 20 years.
I think it did change everything—*because* it made music production more accessible. for better or worse, popular music has largely shifted away from guitar-centric rock music to more electronic and hybrid sounds. rock used to be one of, if not *the* dominant force in the music industry, but now it’s cheaper and easier for people to get started with a free DAW and a few soft synths, than having to learn how to play an instrument, and find a bunch of like minded people to make sounds with. the kinds of music out there have followed suit.
Not saying it is not hard to learn to play an instrument, but are you implying that writing and professionally producing entire songs on your own, mixing and mastering is somehow easier than learning to play one instrument? 🤔

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guitfnky
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Post 10 Jun 2021

PhillipOrdonez wrote:
10 Jun 2021
guitfnky wrote:
10 Jun 2021


I think it did change everything—*because* it made music production more accessible. for better or worse, popular music has largely shifted away from guitar-centric rock music to more electronic and hybrid sounds. rock used to be one of, if not *the* dominant force in the music industry, but now it’s cheaper and easier for people to get started with a free DAW and a few soft synths, than having to learn how to play an instrument, and find a bunch of like minded people to make sounds with. the kinds of music out there have followed suit.
Not saying it is not hard to learn to play an instrument, but are you implying that writing and professionally producing entire songs on your own, mixing and mastering is somehow easier than learning to play one instrument? 🤔
not at all. it’s not a judgment one way or the other—just an observation that the barriers to getting started in music have changed drastically. before everyone with a computer had the opportunity to make music, the only real path was to learn an instrument (including singing)—the most accessible was guitar, which I think is why there was so much focus on rock for so long (and why rock bands still have trouble to this day finding good drummers 😆). learning at least some small level of proficiency was a prerequisite to making any sort of half decent music.

now, you need a computer and some software. producing professional sounding music is still very difficult, but actually creating a bit of music that’s your own, and that sounds good to you is much easier thanks to the improvements in technology. getting your foot in the door without being immediately frustrated and giving up is much easier.

slic
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Post 10 Jun 2021

Personally I think its harder to be able to play an instrument well enough to play your own songs live is harder than producing anything at home with computers.

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EnochLight
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Post 10 Jun 2021

sonicbyte wrote:
10 Jun 2021
But what really bothers me is the lack of open communication about the future of Reason for the "hardcore Reason customer", the ones that don't want to use another DAW, and don't care RPP as plugin (like me)...and just wanted Reason as a solid DAW with its beautiful inspiring workflow. Of course I understand they want new customers, the RPP is a great idea to make other people join Reason...

But why we haven't an official word about the rest of us?
The irony is, there has never been more open and public communication about their (RS) plans than now. Back in the Propellerhead days, we'd never - and I mean *NEVER* - hear about features coming in the next version of Reason several months in advance. You literally wouldn't know until it was announced and going on sale (often in less than 30 days). Also, there was no way - NO WAY - of openingly communicating with them via social networking channels, etc. The Product Manager at the time was as elusive as bigfoot, and rarely appeared in enthusiast forum posts. We only got a limited trickle of information from cryptic dev blogs, which rarely teased anything.

But yeah, I understand your frustration. I'd love for RS to once again publically state very firmly: we are NOT abandoning the core standalone DAW of Reason in version 12 - new workflow features will arrive in 12.x update; or nothing is planned for 12.x at all but we'll add something in 13 if there is one blah blah blah. Just... SOMETHING.

In the past year, Product Manager Mattias himself said they weren't abandoning the core standalone DAW, but then the 12 announcement occurred. :lol: I get that the high-res graphics and improved search will of course benefit the standalone DAW, but come on now - we all KNOW we mean standalone sequencer/main mixer improvements. Pretending high-res and improved search is a core standalone improvement is disingenuous, and frankly - should have arrived in a free point update IMHO. But... I've said all I'm going to say. No use beating a dead horse at this point. I'll still use Reason, as it was my first music software love, but the ride is over for me.
Win 10 | Reason 11 Suite |  Studio 1 4.6 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Reactor 1TB SSD | RME Babyface Pro | Panorama P-4 | Akai MPC Live 2 & Force | Roland System 8, TR-8 7x7 Expansion, MX1, JX8P, TB3 | Ensoniq SQ1 Plus | Korg Minilogue XD

PhillipOrdonez
Posts: 2084
Joined: 20 Oct 2017
Location: Norway

Post 10 Jun 2021

slic wrote:
10 Jun 2021
Personally I think its harder to be able to play an instrument well enough to play your own songs live is harder than producing anything at home with computers.
Producing anything sure, but producing great music that sounds great? Probably takes the same amount of time, or might take longer with the computers than focusing on a single instrument. I do not know.

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guitfnky
Posts: 3465
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Post 10 Jun 2021

EnochLight wrote:
10 Jun 2021
sonicbyte wrote:
10 Jun 2021
But what really bothers me is the lack of open communication about the future of Reason for the "hardcore Reason customer", the ones that don't want to use another DAW, and don't care RPP as plugin (like me)...and just wanted Reason as a solid DAW with its beautiful inspiring workflow. Of course I understand they want new customers, the RPP is a great idea to make other people join Reason...

But why we haven't an official word about the rest of us?
The irony is, there has never been more open and public communication about their (RS) plans than now. Back in the Propellerhead days, we'd never - and I mean *NEVER* - hear about features coming in the next version of Reason several months in advance. You literally wouldn't know until it was announced and going on sale (often in less than 30 days). Also, there was no way - NO WAY - of openingly communicating with them via social networking channels, etc. The Product Manager at the time was as elusive as bigfoot, and rarely appeared in enthusiast forum posts. We only got a limited trickle of information from cryptic dev blogs, which rarely teased anything.

But yeah, I understand your frustration. I'd love for RS to once again publically state very firmly: we are NOT abandoning the core standalone DAW of Reason in version 12 - new workflow features will arrive in 12.x update; or nothing is planned for 12.x at all but we'll add something in 13 if there is one blah blah blah. Just... SOMETHING.

In the past year, Product Manager Mattias himself said they weren't abandoning the core standalone DAW, but then the 12 announcement occurred. :lol: I get that the high-res graphics and improved search will of course benefit the standalone DAW, but come on now - we all KNOW we mean standalone sequencer/main mixer improvements. Pretending high-res and improved search is a core standalone improvement is disingenuous, and frankly - should have arrived in a free point update IMHO. But... I've said all I'm going to say. No use beating a dead horse at this point. I'll still use Reason, as it was my first music software love, but the ride is over for me.
warning: cynical hot take, incoming... I want to say the (para)phrase used was “the DAW isn’t going anywhere”, which is starting to seem more and more lawyerly. they may not be planning to get rid of it, but that wording also means they don’t really have to do anything to improve on it either.

PhillipOrdonez
Posts: 2084
Joined: 20 Oct 2017
Location: Norway

Post 10 Jun 2021

guitfnky wrote:
10 Jun 2021
EnochLight wrote:
10 Jun 2021


The irony is, there has never been more open and public communication about their (RS) plans than now. Back in the Propellerhead days, we'd never - and I mean *NEVER* - hear about features coming in the next version of Reason several months in advance. You literally wouldn't know until it was announced and going on sale (often in less than 30 days). Also, there was no way - NO WAY - of openingly communicating with them via social networking channels, etc. The Product Manager at the time was as elusive as bigfoot, and rarely appeared in enthusiast forum posts. We only got a limited trickle of information from cryptic dev blogs, which rarely teased anything.

But yeah, I understand your frustration. I'd love for RS to once again publically state very firmly: we are NOT abandoning the core standalone DAW of Reason in version 12 - new workflow features will arrive in 12.x update; or nothing is planned for 12.x at all but we'll add something in 13 if there is one blah blah blah. Just... SOMETHING.

In the past year, Product Manager Mattias himself said they weren't abandoning the core standalone DAW, but then the 12 announcement occurred. :lol: I get that the high-res graphics and improved search will of course benefit the standalone DAW, but come on now - we all KNOW we mean standalone sequencer/main mixer improvements. Pretending high-res and improved search is a core standalone improvement is disingenuous, and frankly - should have arrived in a free point update IMHO. But... I've said all I'm going to say. No use beating a dead horse at this point. I'll still use Reason, as it was my first music software love, but the ride is over for me.
warning: cynical hot take, incoming... I want to say the (para)phrase used was “the DAW isn’t going anywhere”, which is starting to seem more and more lawyerly. they may not be planning to get rid of it, but that wording also means they don’t really have to do anything to improve on it either.
It did occur to me but decided not to mention it. Words can be interpreted in different ways. Human spoken languages aren't so great communication tools.

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guitfnky
Posts: 3465
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jun 2021

playing an instrument and producing/mixing are really apples and oranges—they require vastly different skillsets. of course there’s overlap, but I think neither one is inherently more difficult than the other—they’re just different.

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guitfnky
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Post 10 Jun 2021

PhillipOrdonez wrote:
10 Jun 2021
guitfnky wrote:
10 Jun 2021


warning: cynical hot take, incoming... I want to say the (para)phrase used was “the DAW isn’t going anywhere”, which is starting to seem more and more lawyerly. they may not be planning to get rid of it, but that wording also means they don’t really have to do anything to improve on it either.
It did occur to me but decided not to mention it. Words can be interpreted in different ways. Human spoken languages aren't so great communication tools.
very true. I’m generally an optimist, but my optimism with regard to my preferred DAW has flagged lately. I’m not at the point where I believe they’re going to just let cobwebs take over on the DAW side of things, but to your point, the wording they’ve used is so vague it leaves a LOT of gray area.

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