Why all this hate on subscriptions?

[altron]

People who think the subscription model of any software is a good thing or that the developer does this to make it cheaper and more palpable for you don't get it do they? Reason Studios, like any other company is profit driven and you're going to be the cattle that will be milked every month for using the software! The subscription business model is fine-tuned on expecting users to forget their subscription even if not used to milk extra profit out of it. The fewest users cancel their subscription on time if they don't use the software for a while, even less so in the creative act of creating music where inspiration can strike at any time and you're going to rely on staying subscribed. Most users who have to subscribe to use a software are either late in canceling subscription or are too lazy and let it run anyway, even if not used. The companies know this and that's why more and more go full subscription-only. You're the tools that are being exploited.

And even if the software is cheaper as a subscription than buying the full product for the time being, that's only temporary. Once the company has fully established and ultimately enforced it's subscription-only business model they can do whatever they like, drive the price higher slowly over time (many companies did that). You're never going to get back to the freedom of purchasing the software at once and be in peace instead of the pressure of having to pay a monthly fee to use your favorite software.

[DaveyG]

Multiquote ftw.

[selig]

So let's say you are someone who doesn't upgrade every version. Pretend you are still on Reason 8 and you are just waiting for them to add track folders before you upgrade... But you are working on a project that could really benefit from pitch edit, something you don't need often enough to upgrade. Well you can subscribe to get that feature to work on that project. Maybe you want to use Europa or Beat Map... You can even bounce those tracks so you can mix them in Reason 8 later. You can imagine that with any feature or device that they add... You can do that at any point, you can do the smart thing and bounce tracks, and you can upgrade to Reason 13 or Reason 20 or whatever.

You can have subscribed a few times along the way to use any features or devices, but not have to commit to upgrading at that time. That's the benefit.

If it matters, unless I've misunderstood things in this scenario all of your third party REs will NOT be available when you run your subscription since they will be on a separate license.

[orthodox]

antibodies are not organisms

You mean, in case of an organism such a projection looks more trustworthy?

Humans are more advanced, yes, we can create more abstract concepts and have finer-tuned stop mechanisms in our nervous systems. And yet, test chimps and dogs conceptualize to earn a reward (hormonal response) which affects their well-being and development. I'm not following what you're trying to argue here.

humans DO depend on these mechanism is exactly my point. Nomadic cultures have much lower, and I mean MUCH lower average IQs.

What I am arguing:

1) The projection of things and processes related to human intelligence onto animals. Psychic reactions don't require mental formulation, that is, conceptualization. That's sort of panpsychism, which leads to inherently flawed models and wrong conclusions.

Штирлиц напоил мышку бензином и отпустил. Мышка пробежала немного и упала. "Бензин кончился", подумал Штирлиц.

2) The suggestion that humans depend on these mechanisms. Some may do, and this has nothing to do with IQ. They're either sleeping or I would say, as a nomadic descendant, that they just can't drive a horse. This has to do with free will. And now you're suggesting that we're from the same cloth as animals and sentenced for life in that prison.

[MannequinRaces]

^^ This kind of shit above is why I try and avoid this forum these days. A thread about subscriptions devolves into this drivel.

[guitfnky]

So let's say you are someone who doesn't upgrade every version. Pretend you are still on Reason 8 and you are just waiting for them to add track folders before you upgrade... But you are working on a project that could really benefit from pitch edit, something you don't need often enough to upgrade. Well you can subscribe to get that feature to work on that project. Maybe you want to use Europa or Beat Map... You can even bounce those tracks so you can mix them in Reason 8 later. You can imagine that with any feature or device that they add... You can do that at any point, you can do the smart thing and bounce tracks, and you can upgrade to Reason 13 or Reason 20 or whatever.

You can have subscribed a few times along the way to use any features or devices, but not have to commit to upgrading at that time. That's the benefit.

If it matters, unless I've misunderstood things in this scenario all of your third party REs will NOT be available when you run your subscription since they will be on a separate license.

seriously? you would need to buy any third party REs a second time if you want to use in your perpetual version and in R+?? that’s insane.

[jam-s]

If it matters, unless I've misunderstood things in this scenario all of your third party REs will NOT be available when you run your subscription since they will be on a separate license.

seriously? you would need to buy any third party REs a second time if you want to use in your perpetual version and in R+?? that’s insane.

I don't think so. only the Reason made REs that are included in Reason+ won't be available after the subscription ends.

[joeyluck]

You don't lose access to third party REs.

REs you purchase are tied to your account.

[guitfnky]

You don't lose access to third party REs.

REs you purchase are tied to your account.

so you have a single account, and your perpetual license and R+ both roll up to that, if you're a subscriber?

[Philup]

What will happen on the next SDK update?...

You will lose access to any third party REs that you buy unless you stay subbed.

Once you are rolled back, RE's made with a newer SDK won't be guaranteed to work in older versions of Reason.

So you could indeed lose access potentially unless you stay subbed... or update, which you could have done to begin with and saved money in the long run.

[avasopht]

What will happen on the next SDK update?...

You will lose access to any third party REs that you buy unless you stay subbed.

Once you are rolled back, RE's made with a newer SDK won't be guaranteed to work in older versions of Reason.

So you could indeed lose access potentially unless you stay subbed... or update, which you could have done to begin with and saved money in the long run.

RE's have been updated before to the newer version of the SDK and the older version remained accessible to users on the old versions of Reason.

It's no different to having multiple versions of Reason installed on your machine in this case.

Also, the scenario you've described would still be the exact same theoretical problem if a new SDK came out that wasn't backwards compatible. R+ ABSOLUTELY COULDN'T change that.

If they were hell-bent on forcing people to upgrade, R+ doesn't make this any different - they've been able to make that decision for the last 7 years. To suggest R+ changes this is a non-sequitur.

[Philup]

I'm not talking about old RE purchases that have been updated. I am talking about brand new ones.

It has been mentioned several times that you can subscribe to Reason+ for as long as you want and if at any time your are unable to pay, just unsubscribe and go back to your last owned version with all of your RE purchases in tact and available for your use.

However, if I were to begin subbing, and continued my normal pattern of third party RE purchases, eventually a new SDK would come out and new RE's made from that SDK would not be compatible with my last owned version. Thus, my only choice would be to continue to sub or still pay for the current upgrade if I want to continue to use these new RE's. For me this scenario would likely be the case within three years.
Feel free to examine your own purchasing pattern in the shop but I don't believe my buying cycle is an outlier. In fact I'm pretty conservative.

If you use 3rd party RE's and plan on continuing to do so. It just makes more sense to own the software and upgrade as needed.

[QVprod]

I'm not talking about old RE purchases that have been updated. I am talking about brand new ones.

It has been mentioned several times that you can subscribe to Reason+ for as long as you want and if at any time your are unable to pay, just unsubscribe and go back to your last owned version with all of your RE purchases in tact and available for your use.

However, if I were to begin subbing, and continued my normal pattern of third party RE purchases, eventually a new SDK would come out and new RE's made from that SDK would not be compatible with my last owned version. Thus, my only choice would be to continue to sub or still pay for the current upgrade if I want to continue to use these new RE's. For me this scenario would likely be the case within three years.
Feel free to examine your own purchasing pattern in the shop but I don't believe my buying cycle is an outlier. In fact I'm pretty conservative.

If you use 3rd party RE's and plan on continuing to do so. It just makes more sense to own the software and upgrade as needed.

I think it's to be seen how they handle the potential emergency situation of if a subscriber needed to postpone subscribing. That said, I think for the most part this is an unlikely scenario for most who intend to subscribe in perpetuity (see what I did there... ).

[enossified]

I only hate subscriptions when it is the only option.

Having access to "everything" in a subscription is a bait and switch. Noone NEEDS everything, but that's what the subscription promises, a continual stream of new updates that I may or may nor have any interest in. I've only updated Reason once in 16 years. I've never bought an RE and have no plans to. Even if I change my mind, I can't imagaine ever finding a need even one time for every single RE. This is not unique to Reason, the same is true for the Roland Cloud. I created an account and dl'ed the free version just to get a look at what it offered. I'll never have a need for instant access to every single plugin of every single vintage Roland synth, so a subscription offers me nothing.

[stratatonic]

On a side note, I feel optimistic about the updates, the combinator in particular, because that means the RS have actually listened and it makes me hopeful that we may actually get some quality-of-life sequencer updates that we asked for.

Imo, I'd say the only reason they waited so long to release Combinator v2, was to increase the value of R+. I think v2 is extremely important for success of R+. Currently, the SoundPacks are static patches. Boring. What can you do with current Combinator patches? - well, turn four buttons on/off and rotate 4 knobs. If Reason Studios is trying to market the sub with the Sound Packs and Comb v1, it won't fly, imo.
Now you'll get different interfaces. Different experiences. More complex morphing sounds. More visually engaging. One could spend hours just toying with X/Y pads and morphing strips on one patch alone - getting a jillion different sounds without ever having to tab to the back. Get some awesome sound designers* (utilizing a few devices that aren't available in stock Reason, of course) and you can definitely increase R+ perceived value and user base.

(But here's hoping that Reason Studios still throws in a handful of quality-of-life updates for its included DAW in R12).

.
*And I mean, awesome sound designers. I've heard some Packs that were simply dreadful.

[bxbrkrz]

"Subscriptions are good. I own nothing and I am happy about it. More subscriptions = more happiness"

[Noplan]

nobody owns anything on this earth. It’s only rented until we die.

[strange_scenery]

I only hate subscriptions when it is the only option.

Having access to "everything" in a subscription is a bait and switch. Noone NEEDS everything, but that's what the subscription promises, a continual stream of new updates that I may or may nor have any interest in. I've only updated Reason once in 16 years. I've never bought an RE and have no plans to. Even if I change my mind, I can't imagaine ever finding a need even one time for every single RE. This is not unique to Reason, the same is true for the Roland Cloud. I created an account and dl'ed the free version just to get a look at what it offered. I'll never have a need for instant access to every single plugin of every single vintage Roland synth, so a subscription offers me nothing.

I'm not begrudging you the ability to do what you want, but you have to realize that very few companies can survive on one sale every 16 years, and that if everyone did that Reason would be long out of business. I'm not saying everyone is obligated to buy every upgrade, but you have to realize what will happen if you don't. RS has a certain budget to create the next version of Reason, and if a large percentage of users skip it because they find it too underwhelming, they have a reduced budget to create the next version of Reason after that, which will be even more underwhelming. This can create a downward spiral where eventually they don't have enough money to make any improvements, even though they might still have many users of prior versions of the software.

[EdwardKiy]

What I am arguing:

1) The projection of things and processes related to human intelligence onto animals. Psychic reactions don't require mental formulation, that is, conceptualization. That's sort of panpsychism, which leads to inherently flawed models and wrong conclusions.

I think I've provided ample evidence but of course there can be no proof in open systems. If you only want proof and refute any evidence, however abundant, I'll drop the issue of conceptualization at that.

For the sake of argument, let's say that "ownership" to humans is a detrimental part of the humoral reward system, kind of like "direction" in jellyfish, even without the ability to conceptualize, as evidenced by our progression to hunter-gatherers, making social connections and submission to competency hierarchies - purely on a non-conscious level, following our reward systems has led to great progress with the only downside I can think being the development of addictions.

Акушер: у Вас родился мальчик, но есть плохие новости. Сожалею, но он родился без ручек...и без ножек, собственно и без головы и даже туловища (выносят огромное ухо в пелёнке)
Отец сквозь слёзы шепчет в ухо: сынок, папа здесь, папа тебя любит!
Акушер: увы, он глухой

2) The suggestion that humans depend on these mechanisms. Some may do, and this has nothing to do with IQ. They're either sleeping or I would say, as a nomadic descendant, that they just can't drive a horse. This has to do with free will. And now you're suggesting that we're from the same cloth as animals and sentenced for life in that prison.

My suggestion is that humans depend on this particular mechanism because it's so basic and fundamental for all organisms and has made our species in particular what it is today. And what makes you think that our free will is not part of a biological mechanism? I was actually arguing FOR your point in the other thread about free will, if you remember, but after hearing some good opinions there I am now not so certain. Still leaning that way though.

That aside, we can consider ditching some of our biology for a clear benefit. What's the benefit of relieving the need of ownership? Here's the way I see it - the 'benefit' will be in even fewer people owning everything and so there will be less internal friction, self-regulation and stop-mechanisms applied to any direction the people in power will choose to take humanity. For the human species this transition will be like switching from playing smart at the poker table and making smaller bets here and there and leaving room for failure, to going all-in on every bet. I don't see how such foolhardy risk is justified, we are not under any immediate peril of extinction - no more than usual. The other part of this ditching that is hilarious to me, unless you can explain some other 'benefit' of this, is that it's suggesting to ditch a biological driver in most people to feed this same driver in others. This was already done in pre-Babylonian era with caste system and slavery. Not as progressive as you might think.

Edit: sorry I'll be gone for a few more days.

[plaamook]

nobody owns anything on this earth. It’s only rented until we die.

Yeah ok. It's just that some of us get more percieved and/or actual control over the stuff we don't own while we're alive.
I don't care about 'owning' Reason. I care about never needing to verify it online in order to use it. Ever.