Proper stereo panning in Reason: RE or VST?

[chaosroyale]

To briefly explain for beginners: For stereo inputs, Reason does not have real pan knobs, it has balance knobs.

Pan > Moves a signal from left to right.
Balance > Leaves the L & R signals where they are, but adjusts the volume balance between them. If you turn the balance fully "left", the right channel does not move, it simply disappears.

So, for panning stereo signals correctly in the Rack you have to use 2 MONO channels for every stereo device. Sucks, right? Even the SSL has the same problem, unless you reduce the "width" of the signal, which is an annoying and imprecise extra step that slows workflow. The other problem is that for panning mono signals, Reason only uses one "pan law" (the way the level is adjusted between center and the sides to maintain loudness when panning) - and the Reason pan law is not always a good one for various tasks.

In the rack, the alternative is to use something like the excellent Selig Gain RE, where you can use the dual pan knobs to set the position of the L and R parts of the stereo channel freely. It also lets you choose your pan law. But, that's 2 knobs instead of one, so automation and workflow can suffer again.

SO...

Is there a plugin, VST or RE, with a single, smartly designed pan knob that works on stereo signals, preferably with a choice of pan laws?

The operation of the knob would be like this:
Center: both L & R channels are hard-panned L&R for a standard stereo image.
Full left: both L & R channels are panned fully left.
Mid-left: L channel is fully left, R channel is panned center (with appropriate level adjustment from the pan law).

If anyone has a recommendation, please let me know before I make a workaround (yay! wouldn't be Reason without the workarounds)....

[Loque]

I dont think that there are many devices out there, including synths, which ever thought about different panning styles. And yes, i agree, the user should be able to chose between them.

But tbh, if i need extra style panning, including phase rotation of any angle or adjusting left/right indivudually beyond the 180°, i use specific devices. The Kilohearts Stereo is free and simple. If you want more and can get beyong the bit clunky UI, you can use the HOFA 4U Meter, Fader & MS-Pan. Selig GAIN does what you need, but you need to pay. There are also some unique RE for way beyond imaginable Mid/Side/L/R processing if combined...

[plaamook]

Just get Gain I'd say. Cheap and indespensible really. Should just come standard.

[dan_g]

In the rack, the alternative is to use something like the excellent Selig Gain RE, where you can use the dual pan knobs to set the position of the L and R parts of the stereo channel freely. It also lets you choose your pan law. But, that's 2 knobs instead of one, so automation and workflow can suffer again.

maybe you can achive the "one knob" pan Selig Gain with a combi patch workaround XD. then move it as a favorite in your browser to just drop it were you need it.

[guitfnky]

isn’t that what the width knob is for? I agree it’s stupid that you lose potentially half of your audio signal by turning the pan knob, but the width knob lets you compensate for that. but again, stupid to have to use two controls to do the work one should do...

[EdGrip]

maybe you can achive the "one knob" pan Selig Gain with a combi patch workaround XD. then move it as a favorite in your browser to just drop it were you need it.

It's not that easy, due to the limitations of the combinator - you can't set a knob to only affect a parameter from halfway through its rotation onwards. I've tried to design elaborate workarounds in the past with CV devices but it doesn't really work.

[chaosroyale]

I'll make it clearer why I specified "one knob" and "in the rack":

I want to be able to pan particular parts inside combinators with several devices: controlled by a single knob on the combinator, and to have a simple panning option to place between two devices in the rack such as a synth and an insert effect.

It's all about the workflow, babieeee.

isn’t that what the width knob is for? I agree it’s stupid that you lose potentially half of your audio signal by turning the pan knob, but the width knob lets you compensate for that. but again, stupid to have to use two controls to do the work one should do...

[chaosroyale]

I forgot to mention that reducing the "width" knob also bleeds some of the left channel into the right channel speaker and vice versa, which may not be what you want.

i.e. you cannot simply leave the left channel hard left and move the right channel closer to the center. The SSL will also bring the left channel closer to the center.

isn’t that what the width knob is for? I agree it’s stupid that you lose potentially half of your audio signal by turning the pan knob, but the width knob lets you compensate for that. but again, stupid to have to use two controls to do the work one should do...

[Noise]

Check This out:

"Coding and Multidirectional Parameterisation of Ambisonic Sound Scenes (COMPASS)"
COMPASS VSTs is a collection of flexible VST audio plug-ins for spatial audio production, manipulation, and reproduction, developed by Dr. Archontis Politis, Leo McCormack and Dr. Sakari Tervo in the Acoustics Lab at Aalto University.


Download link (free)
http://research.spa.aalto.fi/projects/s ... /download/

Information about the plugins:
http://research.spa.aalto.fi/projects/c ... ugins.html

I'm currently testing this stuff out.
Well, it was mentioned "proper stereo", this plugins are coming from a university research

[guitfnky]

I'll make it clearer why I specified "one knob" and "in the rack":

I want to be able to pan particular parts inside combinators with several devices: controlled by a single knob on the combinator, and to have a simple panning option to place between two devices in the rack such as a synth and an insert effect.

It's all about the workflow, babieeee.

isn’t that what the width knob is for? I agree it’s stupid that you lose potentially half of your audio signal by turning the pan knob, but the width knob lets you compensate for that. but again, stupid to have to use two controls to do the work one should do...

gotcha, I was so focused on the weird implementation they’ve got in the mixer, I totally glossed past the part where you wanted it in the rack. makes total sense—thanks for humoring me.

[chaosroyale]

OK, so just for fun, I built a combinator that does single-knob true stereo panning, using a Quadelectra CV Suite Line Processor and the Aftermath Audio CV8x4 CV Generator to control an annoyingly complex set of 6:2 mixers.

https://www.reasonstudios.com/shop/rack ... processor/
https://www.reasonstudios.com/shop/rack ... generator/

SIX devices in total required just to make it work, what a horrible workaround...smh.
So I threw a pulsar in there as well, to give it the option of being a true stereo autopanner if necessary.

If the CV suite thing was free I would release it as a free device from Chaos FX, but it seems like CV suite is paid and I don't like to release things that don't work for everyone. I will keep looking for a VST that does this, because it would be a much simpler option.

This VST does it: but come on, 50 bucks for a basic f*cking pan control?
https://www.bozdigitallabs.com/product/pan-knob/

[Carly(Poohbear)]

Just use Selin Gain, set Pan L= -100 and Pan R=+100 and input -2 to +2v, this will achieve what you are after.

Using the Arcus set to 200% is an easy way to get the correct volts with just 2 wires to wire up and you have just one knob to automate. Save in combinator ready for quick recall (and per you other request you then just assign a Rotary to the Arcus).. there are loads of other devices you could use in place of the Arcus like the Dual CV Source is another good one or CV8x4 coupled with a Janitor (CV1 scale=+2, Offset=-1 into CV2 scale=+2).



The PoohBear...

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[chaosroyale]

Yeah Selig Gain is great but if I go with a paid device I don't want to be wasting time and rack space with CV workarounds. I can just get that VST if necessary.

[selig]

maybe you can achive the "one knob" pan Selig Gain with a combi patch workaround XD. then move it as a favorite in your browser to just drop it were you need it.

It's not that easy, due to the limitations of the combinator - you can't set a knob to only affect a parameter from halfway through its rotation onwards. I've tried to design elaborate workarounds in the past with CV devices but it doesn't really work.

Thor is the answer! I need to check but I think I’ve already built this with Gain in a Combinator. I can’t take credit for discovering the Thor trick to ignore halve of the range of a Rotary, but it’s a cool hack to be sure!
This application is one reason I want a transfer function in Combinators, in addition to curves...
I will consider this option as an update for Gain, since it’s the way panning SHOULD work in Reason IMO.

[Loque]

It's not that easy, due to the limitations of the combinator - you can't set a knob to only affect a parameter from halfway through its rotation onwards. I've tried to design elaborate workarounds in the past with CV devices but it doesn't really work.

Thor is the answer! I need to check but I think I’ve already built this with Gain in a Combinator. I can’t take credit for discovering the Thor trick to ignore halve of the range of a Rotary, but it’s a cool hack to be sure!
This application is one reason I want a transfer function in Combinators, in addition to curves...
I will consider this option as an update for Gain, since it’s the way panning SHOULD work in Reason IMO.

Would ARCUS do the trick? It has curves and i think you can define offsets and all that stuff.

[guitfnky]

I realize this is of no help whatsoever in Reason, but I was really surprised that Ableton gives you the option of choosing whether you want a single pan knob, or separate knobs for each stereo channel—kind of a cool feature.

something like that would be a nice addition in Reason, but I won’t be holding my breath (besides, they’ve got way more important things to add).

[Carly(Poohbear)]

Yeah Selig Gain is great but if I go with a paid device I don't want to be wasting time and rack space with CV workarounds. I can just get that VST if necessary.

You have given the impression that you already have Selig Gain, the CV8x4 and Janitor are free devices, one wire from the CV8x4 to the Janitor, another one to link CV1 to CV2 and 2 out to Selig Gain, not lot of work that all can be saved in a combinator ready to drop in when you need it.

[Loque]

This one is also ok, but rarely used it:
https://www.flux.audio/project/stereo-tool-v3/

[chaosroyale]

ah sorry - I do not have Selig Gain. I included it in my description because I knew everyone would recommend it (rightly so!) and so that beginners not familiar with pan laws and so on would have something they could refer to.

turns out I had Janitor lying around! so I made a janitor version too.

Yeah Selig Gain is great but if I go with a paid device I don't want to be wasting time and rack space with CV workarounds. I can just get that VST if necessary.

You have given the impression that you already have Selig Gain, the CV8x4 and Janitor are free devices, one wire from the CV8x4 to the Janitor, another one to link CV1 to CV2 and 2 out to Selig Gain, not lot of work that all can be saved in a combinator ready to drop in when you need it.

[chaosroyale]

I forgot about Dre Thor.

[Thor is the answer!

[EdGrip]

You have given the impression that you already have Selig Gain, the CV8x4 and Janitor are free devices, one wire from the CV8x4 to the Janitor, another one to link CV1 to CV2 and 2 out to Selig Gain, not lot of work that all can be saved in a combinator ready to drop in when you need it.

I'll try and work this out later and post a patch file, unless you've got a moment to do it?

I realize this is of no help whatsoever in Reason, but I was really surprised that Ableton gives you the option of choosing whether you want a single pan knob, or separate knobs for each stereo channel—kind of a cool feature.

Ableton's default pan knob was confusing/frustrating when I first started using Live, coming from Reason! It just fades either the left or the right channel out, leaving you with the other, depending on which way you turn it. The Utility module has a width and pan control, but I still miss the width and pan knobs of the SSL. Someone made a free pan knob M4L device, which does proper panning using the separate L/R controls.

[chaosroyale]

I want to make a completely free patch if possible so all users can use it. Even better if it only uses stock devices.

I already made a couple of non-Selig gain versions using CV janitor (free) and CV line processor (9 bucks), both using CV8x4

If I can do the whole thing stock using THOR as the CV tool, that would be even better.

Does anyone want me to post the CV utility versions?

I would hesitate to make a Selig Gain version because Giles has indicated he might update it to include a single-knob feature, in which case the whole problem is instantly solved!!!!

I'll try and work this out later and post a patch file, unless you've got a moment to do it?

[Carly(Poohbear)]

You have given the impression that you already have Selig Gain, the CV8x4 and Janitor are free devices, one wire from the CV8x4 to the Janitor, another one to link CV1 to CV2 and 2 out to Selig Gain, not lot of work that all can be saved in a combinator ready to drop in when you need it.

I'll try and work this out later and post a patch file, unless you've got a moment to do it?

I realize this is of no help whatsoever in Reason, but I was really surprised that Ableton gives you the option of choosing whether you want a single pan knob, or separate knobs for each stereo channel—kind of a cool feature.

Ableton's default pan knob was confusing/frustrating when I first started using Live, coming from Reason! It just fades either the left or the right channel out, leaving you with the other, depending on which way you turn it. The Utility module has a width and pan control, but I still miss the width and pan knobs of the SSL. Someone made a free pan knob M4L device, which does proper panning using the separate L/R controls.

I'm walking out the door so I just slapped this together, should work..

Capture.JPG (140.77 KiB) Viewed 2476 times

[integerpoet]

Are the pan and width knobs in the Reason mixer channel strip emulations of an actual SSL channel strip?

I assumed that was the goal/purpose of the design. Am I wrong about that?

If I'm right, then they literally can't work differently without defeating the purpose of their design.

[chaosroyale]

Its been a long while since I even saw an old SSL but if I recall they had mono inputs only, and you had to use 2 channels for stereo sources.

I should add: the Reason mixer looks like an SSL (and has some of the limitations and disadvantages of an SSL) but it is not an SSL, and is not a direct "emulation" of any kind.

Are the pan and width knobs in the Reason mixer channel strip emulations of an actual SSL channel strip?

I assumed that was the goal/purpose of the design. Am I wrong about that?

If I'm right, then they literally can't work differently without defeating the purpose of their design.