If RS drops Reason DAW, would you keep upgrading the RRP?

[QVprod]

the thing is, we don’t get to define what they spend their time on, so content-related updates to RRP are absolutely plausible, even at the expense of the DAW, if that’s what they decide is important. I hope that’s not the case (in fact, I think it probably isn’t).

where I disagree is in that I don’t think content updates benefit standalone by definition. many of us think they’ve already spent WAY too much time creating content/instruments/effects/Players/whathaveyou to begin with. in my mind, without a ***serious*** push in the core DAW, any additional devices will be largely worthless—at least from a “should I upgrade?” perspective. from a technical “do I have more stuff?” perspective, sure, but that’s not the same thing as what an individual/average user may define as being worthwhile.

Yep we're definitely disagreeing on the technical vs personal perspective. But also I see favoring content/devices upgrades over DAW specific upgrades as a separate concept than dropping the DAW portion altogether... which is what some seem to be alluding to. The former has always happened. They've only had about 2 or 3 innovative features as far as the DAW is concerned since Record imo. Bussing was a marquee feature in version 7... yes something basic as bussing. Granted, it was enough for me to buy R7 and their implementation is different than the norm, but that's how they've moved on updating the DAW portions.... Reason 8 was drag and drop...literally.

This is why I say they are (so far ) who they've always been and I don't see any real change in how they've operated from then til now. Perhaps R+ will change that? I doubt the DAW is going anywhere. It's just whether or not they care to play feature catch up with everything else in that regard.

[guitfnky]

the thing is, we don’t get to define what they spend their time on, so content-related updates to RRP are absolutely plausible, even at the expense of the DAW, if that’s what they decide is important. I hope that’s not the case (in fact, I think it probably isn’t).

where I disagree is in that I don’t think content updates benefit standalone by definition. many of us think they’ve already spent WAY too much time creating content/instruments/effects/Players/whathaveyou to begin with. in my mind, without a ***serious*** push in the core DAW, any additional devices will be largely worthless—at least from a “should I upgrade?” perspective. from a technical “do I have more stuff?” perspective, sure, but that’s not the same thing as what an individual/average user may define as being worthwhile.

Yep we're definitely disagreeing on the technical vs personal perspective. But also I see favoring content/devices upgrades over DAW specific upgrades as a separate concept than dropping the DAW portion altogether... which is what some seem to be alluding to. The former has always happened. They've only had about 2 or 3 innovative features as far as the DAW is concerned since Record imo. Bussing was a marquee feature in version 7... yes something basic as bussing. Granted, it was enough for me to buy R7 and their implementation is different than the norm, but that's how they've moved on updating the DAW portions.... Reason 8 was drag and drop...literally.

This is why I say they are (so far ) who they've always been and I don't see any real change in how they've operated from then til now. Perhaps R+ will change that? I doubt the DAW is going anywhere. It's just whether or not they care to play feature catch up with everything else in that regard.

that’s a good point—they drip fed important DAW/core features over the years. the distinction is that that’s easier to get away with early on. the feature base is so scarce at the beginning, stuff like that does strike users as a much bigger deal. once you’ve been doing “DAW stuff” for >10 years though, if you’re still missing lots of barebones industry standard, best-practice kind of stuff, there comes a point where a few little things to round stuff out isn’t going to cut it anymore. shit, or get off the pot, as the saying goes.

[avasopht]

Do remember that standalone also includes:
1. ReGroove.
2. Audio Pitch Editor.
3. Recycle functionality.
4. Routing between instruments.

[antic604]

Do remember that standalone also includes:
1. ReGroove.
2. Audio Pitch Editor.
3. Recycle functionality.
4. Routing between instruments.

+ pattern tracks, which is huge if you tried using pattern-based REs in any other DAW, where you can't chop the patterns, start them in the middle of "cycle", etc.

+ blocks, which is an awesome (even though underdeveloped) feature

[Enlightenspeed]

Mattias has been getting asked about the "Empty Rack" Reason version for a long time - including by me. I really want to see that version as it is a massive boost for RE Developers if/when it happens.

This is the first time I am holding that scenario in my head, and it might be a galaxy-brain thing, but…

What if RE developers could package their own bundles within an otherwise empty-rack DAW?

I don't know if it's a good idea, but it's giving me something to ponder along with lunch.

It's certainly possible

Once you have the empty rack, then how the shop handles it could be much more open. It would be nice to be able to have the option of extending certain aspects of the shop, either externally or on the Props site itself. Difficult to know what is best without first having a look at the currently mythical "empty rack".

Cheers,
Brian

[avasopht]

Do remember that standalone also includes:
1. ReGroove.
2. Audio Pitch Editor.
3. Recycle functionality.
4. Routing between instruments.

+ pattern tracks, which is huge if you tried using pattern-based REs in any other DAW, where you can't chop the patterns, start them in the middle of "cycle", etc.

+ blocks, which is an awesome (even though underdeveloped) feature

Yes, good point about pattern tracks and blocks.

Maybe the next step forward is more standardized integration, so that blocks and pattern tracks can just be another type of plugin.

[guitfnky]

I hope they start moving that stuff INTO the sequencer and not away from it, with more devices. Players are great, but building some of that directly into the sequencer would be huge.

[kuhliloach]

I voted yes because Reason as a DAW has become irrelevant to me for most production purposes. I'm real happy pulling up my RE's in Logic and Ableton, and will pay to continue this functionality. What I won't be paying for are more devices, synths, and upgrades to the DAW that continue to not live up to the competition.

[Irruchi]

I find my workflow and getting things done the way I want done faster in the Reason DAW. I have been trying to like things like Studio One but I end up just bored because of the menus and bland interface that everything has now

[Heigen5]

It wouldn't make any sense that RS would demand us to start using (AND BUY) some other DAW to run it's rack. So this whole theme is invalid.

[npinero1]

Unfortunately I have been recreating my Reason workflow (e.g. tracks, parallel channels, bus channels, insert FX) in both Studio One and Pro Tools for different clients but I honestly would rather do it all in Reason.

The other DAWS give me some of the features that I cant get on Reason (e.g. Strip Silence, Chord Track). I realize every DAW has its Pros and Cons but I feel like Reason has an overall better workflow that makes more sense to me than the others. It is just wishful thinking that Reason might add some of those additional features. I would consider a subscription if Reason had all the top features that have been discussed on this forum (e.g. VST3, Punch-in/Out, etc). I continue to hope.

[antic604]

It wouldn't make any sense that RS would demand us to start using (AND BUY) some other DAW to run it's rack. So this whole theme is invalid.

To quote @joeyluck: " lol! "

They got most of us by the balls, with thousands of $$$ spent on REs that we can't re-sell. So unluess you're ready & willing to write them off, you're gonna buy a new DAW. And you'll love it, actually

[joeyluck]

It wouldn't make any sense that RS would demand us to start using (AND BUY) some other DAW to run it's rack. So this whole theme is invalid.

To quote @joeyluck: " lol! "

They got most of us by the balls, with thousands of $$$ spent on REs that we can't re-sell. So unluess you're ready & willing to write them off, you're gonna buy a new DAW. And you'll love it, actually

To quote antic604: "I manage just fine in 5 DAWs I own."
But apparently not, because antic604 is obsessed with some idea of the Reason DAW being dropped.

[avasopht]

To quote @joeyluck: " lol! "

They got most of us by the balls, with thousands of $$$ spent on REs that we can't re-sell. So unluess you're ready & willing to write them off, you're gonna buy a new DAW. And you'll love it, actually

Well, if what you are saying is true, then they could just as easily have not created RRP, and instead, just charge users to retain access to their REs offering the exact same upgrades you suggested they could make with RRP (only they don't even have to offer any upgrades since your argument is that they have us all by the balls and we will never leave anyway, so they can just charge us to continue accessing it).

So, if we accept your reasoning that they can drop Reason standalone because we'd all be trapped into upgrading to access our thousands of $$$ spent on REs, then they can do that just as easily without creating RRP, which also means users will have more money to spend on RS (since they don't have to also spend money upgrading their DAW).

Oh, and it also means that they could split Reason into a DAW host that is paid for separately, and also have to pay to upgrade RRP separately (that they can make only compatible with Reason), that way they get money for ongoing Reason upgrades plus the money they'd spend on the DAW (which could just be the exact same Reason we have now ... but paid for separately).

Therefore this line of reasoning cancels itself out. It's self-defeating.

If we're trapped into whatever hosts REs and will all continue to upgrade just to access them, well, they could achieve that without any risk of losing users, whereas what you're suggesting still risks losing users (particularly those without much investment or dependence on REs) and making much more money.

But if it is true, it also suggests that they can increase the cost of Reason right now arbitrarily by the full cost of a DAW while keeping all of their users. It just doesn't make sense the more you think about it

[antic604]

To quote antic604: "I manage just fine in 5 DAWs I own."
But apparently not, because antic604 is obsessed with some idea of the Reason DAW being dropped.

Let me spell that for you, because you obviously have some comprehension issues: being fluent in using 5 tools doesn't mean you wouldn't miss one of them if it disappeared. They're not all the same and not perfectly interchangeable. Which RS acknowledged, accepted and actually took advantage of by releasing RRP, but I guess you're yet to realize...

[bxbrkrz]

Poll: if the end of the world is in 9 years, would you keep upgrading?

The way the question is framed makes it impossible to answer yes.

Wake up! Or not.

admiral_ackbar_meme.gif

[joeyluck]

To quote antic604: "I manage just fine in 5 DAWs I own."
But apparently not, because antic604 is obsessed with some idea of the Reason DAW being dropped.

Let me spell that for you, because you obviously have some comprehension issues: being fluent in using 5 tools doesn't mean you wouldn't miss one of them if it disappeared. They're not all the same and not perfectly interchangeable. Which RS acknowledged, accepted and actually took advantage of by releasing RRP, but I guess you're yet to realize...

I'm just interpreting what you have said out of context. You know all about that

You have had things spelled out for you, proven, and you dance around facts to continue to try to make your points. Such as you saying the videos about how to use the RRP in FL and Logic are only aimed at current Reason users... yet it goes over how to create effects and players in the rack. Not sure what current Reason users don't know how to do that... Those videos are aimed at everyone from all levels of experience going from Reason to FL or Logic to Reason, etc. Never used Logic? That video is for you. Never used Reason? That video is for you. Want to go from FL to Reason or Reason to FL? Check out that video. Those are the facts.

You try to take simple things and mold them to fit your theory. You take things out of context and twist words. It seems it will never stop. You're on track to being the new "Reason sound" person. At what point will you stop trying to prove your theory anytime somebody just breathes? I can totally see you on here when Reason 15 is released and you are saying, "It could still happen...I never said when it would happen."

[antic604]

It just doesn't make sense the more you think about it

Only if you assume RS are operating in a vacuum.

Both RRP and Reason DAW have to compete for attention and money of users (current AND potential) against other DAWs and plugins, not to mention hardware. In ideal world - for both users and the business - they'd have chosen both directions:
1) making RRP better over time & sell REs to both old & new - not necessarily Reason DAW - users, AND
2) making the DAW better, to keep the old and maybe attract new users

It just becomes more & more clear to me that the latter ceased to be an avenue they're committed to pursue.

When (well, before I imagine) Verdane purchased Propellerhead I think the assesment was simple:
1) they have a pretty great abstracted RE tech, that is hardware & OS independent, so we can expand to hardware, web, etc.
2) they have a shop where they centrally manage files hosting, piracy protection and licencing for both native & 3rd party REs;
3) they have a 500+ strong RE library that can't be re-sold
4) they still have a sizeable user base that somehow stayed with Props despite no real DAW development to speak of
5) so, apparently, the users are in with them for the Rack and REs ( Mattias' "Rack *is* the product" )

From that it's a simple & straightforward conclusion to say: "well, lets then make the Rack & REs available to everyone - current & new users alike, regardless of the host they're in - and ditch the Reason DAW, because it's been neglected for years and catching up to Ableton, FL and Logic would cost too much anyway. And we won't have to hear all the batch & moaning about Sequencer & Mixer any longer."

I don't know what's so controversial about noticing - and being dissapointed with - it?

[antic604]

Poll: if the end of the world is in 9 years, would you keep upgrading?

The way the question is framed makes it impossible to answer yes.

Wake up! Or not.

admiral_ackbar_meme.gif

Not really.

Following your own analogy, the question is "if Earth is going to blow up in 9 years, would you consider moving to Mars"

[bxbrkrz]

Poll: if the end of the world is in 9 years, would you keep upgrading?

The way the question is framed makes it impossible to answer yes.

Wake up! Or not.

admiral_ackbar_meme.gif

Not really.

Following your own analogy, the question is "if Earth is going to blow up in 9 years, would you consider moving to Mars"

Following your own analogy, you want us to move from a habitable beautiful full of life DAW, to a dead one, in 9 years?

[antic604]

...At what point will you stop trying to prove your theory anytime somebody just breathes? I can totally see you on here when Reason 15 is released and you are saying, "It could still happen...I never said when it would happen."

Let's make it simple then, shall we? If there's Reason v15* I will pay for your upgrade.

If there's not, you'll pay for upgrade of one of my 5 (well, 4 by then...) DAWs.

Deal?

(or whatever version +4 from current v11, in case they do the Fruity Loops and jump from 12 to 20 )

[antic604]

Not really.

Following your own analogy, the question is "if Earth is going to blow up in 9 years, would you consider moving to Mars"

Following your own analogy, you want us to move from a habitable beautiful full of life DAW, to a dead one, in 9 years?

I don't. RS are, though. With a life raft in form of RRP.

[bxbrkrz]

But what will happen to your threads while waiting for RS15 to drop? Depending on your answer it could be a fantastic deal for me.

RS15. That's like. 9 years of Zen?

[antic604]

But what will happen to your threads while waiting for RS15 to drop? Depending on your answer it could be a fantastic deal for me.

RS15. That's like. 9 years of Zen?

How many thereads there are on this forum?

Why do you care so much about my 2 threads (this one + the one on Mattias' statement on KvR) about this topic? Just ignore them if you disagree and go read thousands of others...

[bxbrkrz]

But what will happen to your threads while waiting for RS15 to drop? Depending on your answer it could be a fantastic deal for me.

RS15. That's like. 9 years of Zen?

How many thereads there are on this forum?

Why do you care so much about my 2 threads (this one + the one on Mattias' statement on KvR) about this topic? Just ignore them if you disagree and go read thousands of others...

I read everything you type. And my life raft to Mars is not ready yet. I have time until RS15