Mattias: "Reason is the rack and you can use it as a plug-in or standalone with its own sequencer and mixer etc."

[PhillipOrdonez]

I don't think an empty rack would be given away. Who would want it? I think they should just include it with any purchase... Want to buy algoritm but don't even own Reason? Maybe you liked playing with it during your Reason+ subscription and want to have it. You can buy it and use it cause it comes with the RRP that can load it!

you wouldn't want it on its own, but it would open the door for them to try stuff in the Shop. if you're curious about using Friktion, for example, and don't want to demo Reason/+ (or if you did demo it, but never got around to actually opening it and trying anything out), then you wouldn't want to have to buy Friktion before you could access the rack.

You get the temporary license of the track with the trial. After that, maybe you can keep it but for what purpose of you got no Res? As I mentioned above, even buying a free Re could get you the empty RRP. Then you can trial anything and buy anything...

[enossified]

When I tried it in Logic I realised it needs presets. 8 Subtractors fronted by a front panel coming across as a single plugin / instrument.

That's what Combinators are for? I do know that automation or Smart Controls in Logic is somewhat of a nightmare currently unless a Combinator is loaded in RRP. Of course, Combinators are pretty limited with only 4 knobs and 4 buttons.

[BRIGGS]

It would be cool, if the DAW part was like the rack extensions. 'Sequencer Extensions'

That way developers could build their own sequencers, RS could focus on the rack, and users would have more options.

Win Win Win

[R303]

Yeah, free empty RRP sounds good, but honestly at the moment Reason is a premium product after launch Reason+. That could be their self-assessment.
Many perpetual licences are easier to get than R11.

On the other hand, Pro Tools has sub-serv and also Pro Tools First, a free DAW.

And it's not only the cables, Reason has many excellent devices with depth, average DAW is too hard.
Stock devices were a reason to come back after VST implementation.

[Heigen5]

I love the rack and it was absolutely what got me into Reason in the first place, but nowadays I am all about how the rack/mixer/sequencer all work together. Having a decent dynamics & EQ section on tap via the mixer whenever I need them is preferable to having to fire up a channel strip VST when I need them. Although I do think the sequencer could use some love and I'm all for extra workflow features, I honestly don't think there's anything out-and-out wrong with it like other folks seem to.

I am the same in that manner. I don't find Reason being average at all, and don't think it's missing anything That big.
And I love Reason architecture/workflow a lot more, than any other DAW. As example, lots of the other DAWs don't have that same 'feel to it' i.e. a virtual Rack feel to it in the same way. Some DAWs also look like text editors more than Virtual Rack studios. By the way, RS has already put more sequencer features into Reason in the couple of the last updates. "Ghost Clips" would be also cool to be added, - but clip crossfade, multi clip-editing, and some others were already added.

[QVprod]

I’m just gonna sit these here. Mattias’ statements state the same place they’ve always been. The plugin just replaced Rewire. That’s all. Everything outside of the rack has always seemed to been about ease of use rather than being feature rich. Other Daws have always had more advanced sequencers imo.

[Yonatan]

The Sequencer is the one section that needs a bigger upgrade. Fingers crossed...

[avasopht]

How about a little context?

How stupid do you think I am?

The context changes nothing.

According to Mattias, Reason Rack Rlugin (with "some instruments") would basically cost the same as full Reason, which simple math would tell you means that everything else - Sequencer and Mixer, specifically - are worth zero or close to.

Also, I provided the link.

Not really ... pricing isn't based on adding up the worth of each individual component (bundles that cost less than the total sum of each individual unit wouldn't exist otherwise).

That's just what they could/would sell it for.

[gbball]

This will be an unpopular opinion but as a full time Reason user since 9.5 and someone who is pro-Reason in a world of Ableton Live etc. users I have come to the conclusion that for me Reason is the rack.

I find the mixer page incredibly ugly and a pain to work with and try to use it as little as possible, always opting for rack devices for my phase/gain/EQ/comp/exp/gate needs. I'm glad I can get to panning, EQ and level from the mix devices in the rack, if I could just get to the sends I'd have no need to ever look at the mixer.

The sequencer is somewhere to sequence the pattern states in my rack devices and to automate their parameters over time. As an audio sequencer I detest it and treat it like a tape recorder.

Reason is all about the rack, front and back.

Something that I noticed with the recent release of Pattern Mutator was how it seemed to be the F8 window random/alter functions broken out into the rack. I'd like to see more of Reason's non-rack functionality brought into the rack!

Dunno how it would work or what compromises would have to be made but Sends/send amount? Get it in the rack. Blocks? Get it in the rack. The hideous regroove mixer? Get it in the rack, make it less hideous. Come on. Get me in the rack.

I actually like this idea a lot...and I think it summarizes what I enjoy about Reason compared to other DAWs...It' the deliberate you do things and the integration it has with the sequencer. Like being able to bounce midi notes from player devices to the sequencer...

In fact, I was thinking about how Reason might handle Bitwig/Ableton style clip launching and I can see them mack a rack extension for that...maybe something that can pull from the blocks, or has its own set of discrete blocks within it.

I have Bitwig and Reaper and while I'm not as familiar with them so far as Reason, I find their implementation of things like Scales and Chords isn't any less functional, but it isn't nearly as inspiring to work with.

[gbball]

Not controversial IMO, without the amazing Rack, Reason is just another average DAW.

I only wish RS was more INTO the rack concept themselves, and we didn't have things like cable-less Player devices with no CV in/out, instruments like Complex-1 with only a single pair of CV in/out.
I'm sure if they thought hard about things there would be some possible improvements to be made in the way the Rack slots together and in the auto cabling system.
Perhaps have a look at other modern rack systems like VCV and Voltage Modular to get a few ideas.

This isn’t even close to the history. When reason was first announced VSTi was just coming online with VST2. DAWs as we know them now didn’t really exist and we had sequencers that could record audio, midi sequencers and hardware audio workstations.

There was nothing like reason and it really felt like the future. It was a rack because like other abstractions it represented what people knew - a rack of kit. For me it was mind blowing. I’d had some hardware bits and bobs and also tried out and failed to really get going with software solutions like cubasis and a free copy of logic on the pc!

Then I got rebirth and I was set. I just always had this “I would love to add a pad to this” feeling going on and resin would let me do this

However time has moved on and yes the rack is still an awesome and creative environment but for old school users reason wasn’t the rack. Reason was devices I couldn’t afford - loads of them, in a rack controlled by an easy to use sequencer that was made to measure - made for this devices.

Over time it has morphed and grown and just isn’t the sleek elegant solution we had in the early 00s and where other programs have adapted and changed over time
Reason has just bolted more and more bits on.

I’ll give some examples:

Reason comes with factory devices but not all of these are accessed by the call factory sound bank some are REs. No biggy but inconstancy is rife here with how to access them and their sounds.

V1 had a quantise button in the sequencer. This was moved to the horrific f8 panel along with other random bits. Sample editing anyone? Just moved and added to other bolt on bits. The sequencer is lacking both options in its main panel as well as shortcuts that other platforms give me.

I don’t buy the this is the easiest platform for beginners. Rubbish. Live is easier, bitwig is easier heck even logic is and not because they’re simple but because they have consistent behaviours.

The sequencer has outdated outmoded solutions. I double click to edit a midi track for example but now my ui has a close button that says close and has a cross. Really? In 2021?

It really makes me fed up that a product and company that I respected and loved has gone the way it has.

I still maintain if they want revenue make a killer product. A product that works on its own that is modern and sleek and innovative. I sadly just don’t think their company is big enough nor do they have the capacity or ability to pull something like this off and that makes me sad.

I wouldn't say that Reason is necessarily easier than other DAWs, but it's more accessible for a beginner in a lot of ways. One of which is the awesome tutorials the company puts out.

I still remember this video from when I started

I laugh now at how simple that was, but it's what got me started.

And I imagine many longtime Reason users can point to a tutorial from Reason that helped them get going in the early days. I don't really see other DAWs making the same commitment to onboarding new users and explaining concepts in the same way. Especially doing so in a way that doesn't come off as pretentious.

Look at the Algoritm product video and device. I'm sure I'm not the only one who now has a framework of understanding for FM synthesis that I didn't have before. I wouldn't discount Reasons' ability to design and communicate in a logical way. Also, the player devices. Some people around here seem to hate them because they are accustomed to CV patching from early versions of Reason, but things like that, regardless of whether or not they're as sophisticated as solutions in other DAWs, provide a very easy-to-understand pathway to music theory. A few years ago, I wanted to make beats and start composing simple music for my games, and the program has grown with me as I've learned more.

When I started, I had no idea how to use any DAW or make music, but after looking at countless best DAW comparisons and narrowing my choices down to FL Studio, Studio One, and Reason. I chose Reason. Now I have Reason, Reaper and Bitwig, but for now at least Reason just clicks for me better.

I guess I enjoy spending more time in the Rack vs in the Sequencer. But I like that the sequencer is there when I need it. I can see DAWs like Reason and Bitwig appealing more to people like me who enjoy experimenting with sound design and making music equally. I use Reaper for it's tweakability and for how well it works with audio.

[antic604]

Not really ... pricing isn't based on adding up the worth of each individual component (bundles that cost less than the total sum of each individual unit wouldn't exist otherwise).

That's just what they could/would sell it for.

No, it's a play on margin & volume.

In physical world, if you buy a bundle of something it's still not being sold at a loss, just smaller margin is made per unit on bigger quantity, making the profit the same, or even higher. In digital world, this effect if probably much, much bigger because a) you can re-use code from one product in the other (making 2 synths is not 2x the cost of one synth), b) making more "copies" of the final product doesn't cost more.

But really, my point was about the narrative and thinking that Mattias' comment reflects, not about the exact maths. Even if Rack is seen as 80% of Reason's value, then that doesn't bode well for Sequencer and Mixer, which sort of seals the fate of Reason DAW in mid- to long-term.

[antic604]

In fact, I was thinking about how Reason might handle Bitwig/Ableton style clip launching and I can see them mack a rack extension for that...maybe something that can pull from the blocks, or has its own set of discrete blocks within it.

Yeah, we've been there...

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7506889

[bangaio]

Look how the sleek well designed the original sequencer was. Functions that have vanished like quantise tools. It was so well set out.



No look at this design shambles. More colourful, more "modern" perhaps but there's dead space where all sorts of things could be located (quantise!), big clunky buttons, a mixture of icons and text buttons.



When the props made v1 it was about the whole package, the integration. Now it is just the rack and to hell with everything else. The devices are lovely, look great, work well, super. The sequencer is a UX nightmare.

[avasopht]

But really, my point was about the narrative and thinking that Mattias' comment reflects, not about the exact maths. Even if Rack is seen as 80% of Reason's value, then that doesn't bode well for Sequencer and Mixer, which sort of seals the fate of Reason DAW in mid- to long-term.

But that's not the narrative his comment reflects.

Take the sequencer and mixer away from Reason, and tell me, is Reason just as attractive to most users?

Of course not.

As a plugin, however, the sequencer and mixer are just not as relevant (especially since you have the SSL EQ and compressor available). But people will still buy it for the same price.

In fact, they are already. Anyone who bought Reason solely to access RRP is an indication that the RRP can sell for the same price as Reason standalone (it just happens to come with Reason standalone).

It's no different to Apple selling Logic for $200 while including a plugin suite sold for over $1,000 before Apple bought them out. They didn't increase the price of Logic. But that doesn't indicate that those plugins have no value - they are what made Logic a no-brainer (along with the sample libraries they bought out).

All Mattias has said is that people who only want RRP will pay as much as it costs to buy Reason, giving reasons why (they already have a sequencer and mixer).

I mean, by that logic, RRP has no value, since its introduction did not increase the price of Reason. And yet, we know that it has value as there are people who bought Reason 11 solely for RRP, not Reason standalone.

But more importantly, they could not sell Reason standalone without a sequencer and mixer for the same price as they could with them included (if at all) because, clearly, they are valuable. It's just not quantifiable.

If anything, what you are seeing is the nature of replaceable functionality. However much value the sequencer and mixer provides, they are immediately replaceable when used as a Plugin (and really not that relevant as you'd want to use your DAW sequencer and mixer anyway).

[antic604]

All Mattias has said is that people who only want RRP will pay as much as it costs to buy Reason, giving reasons why (they already have a sequencer and mixer).

If anything, what you are seeing is the nature of replaceable functionality. However much value the sequencer and mixer provides, they are immediately replaceable when used as a Plugin (and really not that relevant as you'd want to use your DAW sequencer and mixer anyway).

...which is exactly what I'm saying! Sequencer and Mixer are easily replaceable and RS noticed people will pay full price to use the plugin only, so they won't invest into the DAW elements v12 or just keep them barely functional.

I've no idea why you're disputing this, if you see this for yourself?

[avasopht]

All Mattias has said is that people who only want RRP will pay as much as it costs to buy Reason, giving reasons why (they already have a sequencer and mixer).

If anything, what you are seeing is the nature of replaceable functionality. However much value the sequencer and mixer provides, they are immediately replaceable when used as a Plugin (and really not that relevant as you'd want to use your DAW sequencer and mixer anyway).

...which is exactly what I'm saying! Sequencer and Mixer are easily replaceable and RS noticed people will pay full price to use the plugin only, so they won't invest into the DAW elements v12 or just keep them barely functional.

I've no idea why you're disputing this, if you see this for yourself?

That is not what I've said. You've misunderstood.

Replaceable does not mean without value, nor that it's of any value to consumers who want Reason standalone. It's just replaceable. If your Lexus breaks down, you can replace it with a Jaguar. If my Samsung charger breaks down, I can replace it with a Huawei one. If my Nikon lens breaks, I can replace it with any other compatible lens. The premise of VSTs is that sequencers and DAWs are replaceable. I can use my VSTs in any DAW. It doesn't really matter that much. They're all doing the same thing (letting me use my VSTs including RRP).

Noticing that people will pay full price for RRP doesn't mean Reason Standalone has no relevance because RRP is only relevant to those who want to use RRP.

The fact that there are people who will pay the full price for RRP doesn't suddenly mean that everyone buying Reason standalone no longer want Reason Standalone and would be happy using RRP with another DAW. It also doesn't mean there is no need (or less need) to develop the sequencer or mixer.

[QVprod]

All Mattias has said is that people who only want RRP will pay as much as it costs to buy Reason, giving reasons why (they already have a sequencer and mixer).

If anything, what you are seeing is the nature of replaceable functionality. However much value the sequencer and mixer provides, they are immediately replaceable when used as a Plugin (and really not that relevant as you'd want to use your DAW sequencer and mixer anyway).

...which is exactly what I'm saying! Sequencer and Mixer are easily replaceable and RS noticed people will pay full price to use the plugin only, so they won't invest into the DAW elements v12 or just keep them barely functional.

I've no idea why you're disputing this, if you see this for yourself?

In business there's something called a USP. Unique Selling Point. Reason's USP is the rack. Always has been. The primary differing factor from every other DAW. That's all that's being said. It does not mean that the rest of the DAW isn't important. It's not the first time the rack was use alongside other DAWs/sequencers. That's what Rewire was for. People bought Reason just for Rewire in the past. RRP is just a Rewire replacement. Nothing's changed.

[Billy+]

Agree the rack has always been Reason's USP and the sequencer has always been a work in progress.

We've seen features added but always at a slower pace than other DAW's, but I would rather have less features that work well as a posed to something like reaper that's so full of features that you don't know where to start.

[Creativemind]

So you're saying that the DAW part would get worse over time? How?

Consider the context of my reply.

I'm answering to a claim that Reason is "an average DAW".
All other DAWs progress constantly, so the average moves up.
If you're staying in place, you're falling behind.

Yeah Reaper had an update around 13th December last year and since then has had about another 4. All with 20+ features in each. We got 2 last week alone. I sometimes wonder what they do at Reason Studio's. It took them a year to code muting midi notes, an octave shift shortcut and another 5 features?

Ok, there was Sweeper, Quartet and the 3 mixer devices and the plug-in but the 3 mixer devices and plug-in would've been cutting and pasting the code they already had for all of those into something else seeing as the code for all that was already done wouldn't it?

[gbball]

I think Reaper has a different philosophy and it feels in some ways more like an open-source community project that allows users the flexibility to create their own take on things. Reason has a more curated approach. I imagine the team is doing R&D. They probably have a ton of stuff in the works, much of which will never see the light of day. Design is as much about what you leave out as what you include.

I hope they've been doing a deep investigation on other DAWs to see how they work with the Rack, getting new ideas, and thinking carefully about how they will tackle things in a way that fits with Reason's workflow.

[gbball]

In fact, I was thinking about how Reason might handle Bitwig/Ableton style clip launching and I can see them mack a rack extension for that...maybe something that can pull from the blocks, or has its own set of discrete blocks within it.

Yeah, we've been there...

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7506889

Nice, thanks!

[antic604]

Noticing that people will pay full price for RRP doesn't mean Reason Standalone has no relevance because RRP is only relevant to those who want to use RRP.

But for a business that also means they can get more revenue focusing on one thing, rather than three (to simplify). And they can probably estimate, that if they put the same extra resources (money, people, time) to RRP instead of to Rack, Sequencer and Mixer, they can actually get more users in and more money. I'm pretty sure many of the new users attracted by RRP are not even considering switching to Reason DAW, no matter how much money RS would pour into that. And probably that amount of resources, to make Reason DAW compete with say Ableton or Cubase is much higher, than to make RRP compete - at least on a surface level - with Kontakt or Reaktor. Not to mention the return on that expenditure is completely different, i.e. say $150 for Reason DAW upgrade every 2 years vs. $75-100 for a new RE every 3-6 months.

The fact that there are people who will pay the full price for RRP doesn't suddenly mean that everyone buying Reason standalone no longer want Reason Standalone and would be happy using RRP with another DAW. It also doesn't mean there is no need (or less need) to develop the sequencer or mixer.

I agree, it doesn't mean that. But simple economic calculation may lead RS to set up their product line & pricing structure in a way that will eventually (if it hasn't already...) discourage and chase away Reason DAW users and/or compell them to use RRP in 3rd party DAWs instead. There's no place for sentiments in business.

This is ALL I'm trying to say.

-----------

I might be completely wrong and biased with my interpretation, but it's quite telling that Mattias vanished from here or KvR since after that post and only tweets - during business hours, no less... - about Switch games.

[bangaio]

Gah I give up. At the start the USP wasn’t just the rack it was a complete studio rack sequencer mixer all in one place. Either people here are too young, too recent users of reason or have too short a memory.

Sure there was a rack but this held the devices. It was a very close abstraction and metaphor for a virtual studio. Soft synths were in their infancy and DAWs weren’t called DAW they were called hard disk recorders or software workstations.

What reason had as its usp was a shed load of devices that would usually cost thousands each all together tightly integrated with the mixer, each other and the sequencer. It was just so slick and unique.

These days the rack as a usp is to disguise the lack of development to that tight integration and packaging of all the devices. It’s essentially an excuse. I wonder how many reason plus sound pack rinsers spend ages wiring up their racks in clever ways.

[antic604]

These days the rack as a usp is to disguise the lack of development to that tight integration and packaging of all the devices. It’s essentially an excuse. I wonder how many reason plus sound pack rinsers spend ages wiring up their racks in clever ways.

I don't even see the RRP as is as a USP, especially if you're in a DAW like Ableton, Bitwig, FL, Waveform (that make up 40-50% of RRP users based on poll) where you can patch, split/merge & modulate stuff however you want at the fraction of work & hassle compared to RRP.

Perhaps if they drop Sequencer & Mixer, they can focus on streamlining the patching, splitting/merging in RRP, adding possibility to patch accross instances (if iZotope or FabFilter plugins can communicate, then RRPs can too), adding missing features for sequencer devices (no pattern track equivalent in other DAWs, so they just follow transport).

[Ahornberg]

For me, dropping ReWire and replacing it with the Reason VST was a step back.