Mattias: "Reason is the rack and you can use it as a plug-in or standalone with its own sequencer and mixer etc."

[plesio]

To be frank, it'd probably just be the same price as buying Reason today though. Reason is the rack and you can use it as a plug-in or standalone with its own sequencer and mixer etc., similar to how you can use Reaktor standalone or as a plug-in or use FL Studio standalone or as a plug-in but you only buy one product. At least that's how we think about the product.

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p8047683

I know it's nothing new & it has been said here & elsewhere multiple times, but it was never articulated so loud & clear by RS themselves

Thx a lot for this, antic !

This is one of the most important info posted here recently, imho.

From my point of view, it shows how useless it is to predict, anticipate or even try to affect a companies commercial strategy from the outside. I´d appreciate Mattias to give a statement like that here at RT.

[joeyluck]

The first post is fixed to include context

[chaosroyale]

I don't exactly agree with the way Antic expresses things, but from an economic point of view, he is actually correct.

If a feature does not add value to a product, it is economically not viable to continue producing it.

Now, *value* is a little hard to define, so perhaps RS see the value of the DAW in some other way. But their marketing is not very promising. They have started saying "..or you can use the built-in DAW" which is marketing speak for "this is not a real DAW, use a different one".

I hope I am wrong, I really do. I would love to eat a big slice of crow.

From the other thread:

Where? Towards a DAW-less future:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7522170

Please don't pull this clickbait BS here.

Again, Mattias' comment was in response to someone requesting they sell the Reason rack separately. And guess what, you can't buy the rack without buying the DAW.

[joeyluck]

I don't exactly agree with the way Antic expresses things, but from an economic point of view, he is actually correct.

If a feature does not add value to a product, it is economically not viable to continue producing it.

Now, *value* is a little hard to define, so perhaps RS see the value of the DAW in some other way. But their marketing is not very promising. They have started saying "..or you can use the built-in DAW" which is marketing speak for "this is not a real DAW, use a different one".

I hope I am wrong, I really do. I would love to eat a big slice of crow.

From the other thread:



Please don't pull this clickbait BS here.

Again, Mattias' comment was in response to someone requesting they sell the Reason rack separately. And guess what, you can't buy the rack without buying the DAW.

I simply disagree with making a comment about a "DAW-less future" and then linking to a thread created that initially lacked context in which the answer being quoted is actually given to a user asking for the RRP to be sold separately and the current answer is that you can't buy it separately—you need to buy the DAW.

Honestly I guess these threads should be merged? Whenever I see someone create a thread and then bump another thread to point to their thread, that's usually a confirmation that they should be merged.

The rack has always been the main attraction of Reason—it's how it got started. Everything created for Reason is to draw people to buy it or upgrade. Adding pitch edit, crossfades, automation curves, or whatever is to add value and get people to buy Reason.

And people want a free empty rack? So if that happens, I guess Reason then has no value?

[Billy+]

I love the rack and it was absolutely what got me into Reason in the first place, but nowadays I am all about how the rack/mixer/sequencer all work together. Having a decent dynamics & EQ section on tap via the mixer whenever I need them is preferable to having to fire up a channel strip VST when I need them. Although I do think the sequencer could use some love and I'm all for extra workflow features, I honestly don't think there's anything out-and-out wrong with it like other folks seem to.

Totally agree with everything you've said.

When it comes to the sequencer workflow it's just simple things like fixing the strange numbering for automation which has been done for the equivalent RE versions.

[guitfnky]

The rack has always been the main attraction of Reason—it's how it got started. Everything created for Reason is to draw people to buy it or upgrade. Adding pitch edit, crossfades, automation curves, or whatever is to add value and get people to buy Reason.

for me, the DAW was actually the most important feature (5+Record Duo). coming from Digital Performer, which was a powerful, but absolutely unwieldy beast of a DAW, I was looking for something that made the process of recording as simple or as deep as I needed it to be. they rewarded my loyalty for a long time, really building out some of the main features I wanted (the pitch editor was a huge one for me).

I hope they continue adding core DAW features, but I’d be lying if I said the last couple of versions have been very encouraging in that regard. 7 new workflow improvements in a major release...I’m glad they added them—they’re long overdue, but they’re also not enough, when there’s a huge laundry list of deficiencies, compared to other DAWs.

since the switch from Props to RS, it doesn’t *seem* like the focus is on the DAW, and I agree with others who are worried about the choice of words they’re using here making it seem like they’re shifting away from that. time will tell.

[jam-s]

Again, Mattias' comment was in response to someone requesting they sell the Reason rack separately. And guess what, you can't buy the rack without buying the DAW.

But they really should give away an empty rack with just the hardware IO and MIDIout devices for free to help the RE ecosystem to gain some traction.

[joeyluck]

The rack has always been the main attraction of Reason—it's how it got started. Everything created for Reason is to draw people to buy it or upgrade. Adding pitch edit, crossfades, automation curves, or whatever is to add value and get people to buy Reason.

for me, the DAW was actually the most important feature (5+Record Duo). coming from Digital Performer, which was a powerful, but absolutely unwieldy beast of a DAW, I was looking for something that made the process of recording as simple or as deep as I needed it to be. they rewarded my loyalty for a long time, really building out some of the main features I wanted (the pitch editor was a huge one for me).

I hope they continue adding core DAW features, but I’d be lying if I said the last couple of versions have been very encouraging in that regard. 7 new workflow improvements in a major release...I’m glad they added them—they’re long overdue, but they’re also not enough, when there’s a huge laundry list of deficiencies, compared to other DAWs.

since the switch from Props to RS, it doesn’t *seem* like the focus is on the DAW, and I agree with others who are worried about the choice of words they’re using here making it seem like they’re shifting away from that. time will tell.

Funny I got started with Reason 1 because it was already installed on a Mac G4 Cube I had bought from a friend. Also on it was Digital Performer (ver #?). So it was between those two that I was testing and Reason was the easy choice, even with the lack of audio recording then and so many other features. At that time, I found that working with Reason and Audacity (either exporting to Audacity or importing audio and triggering long audio tracks with NNXT) was still a better workflow for me than working with DP, which I think says a lot about the charm of Reason.

There are things I want like MPE support. I'm hoping that is something that comes with attention on the RRP as well. People want their instruments to have MPE support. VST devs are including it in all of their new instruments and also going back and updating their old instruments. So if Reason and its rack has a focus on being on instruments, that is going to be huge if they want it to compete and be relevant into the future. The push to update the browser with tags, etc. could also be helped by RRP users. Honestly, I think the graphics update has probably also been encouraged by requests from RRP users.

And there are still things I want to see improved with the Rack that I hope the RRP helps push—such as highlighting possible connections and double-click to assign connections: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7499734

[Billy+]

The rack has always been the main attraction of Reason—it's how it got started. Everything created for Reason is to draw people to buy it or upgrade. Adding pitch edit, crossfades, automation curves, or whatever is to add value and get people to buy Reason.

for me, the DAW was actually the most important feature (5+Record Duo). coming from Digital Performer, which was a powerful, but absolutely unwieldy beast of a DAW, I was looking for something that made the process of recording as simple or as deep as I needed it to be. they rewarded my loyalty for a long time, really building out some of the main features I wanted (the pitch editor was a huge one for me).

I hope they continue adding core DAW features, but I’d be lying if I said the last couple of versions have been very encouraging in that regard. 7 new workflow improvements in a major release...I’m glad they added them—they’re long overdue, but they’re also not enough, when there’s a huge laundry list of deficiencies, compared to other DAWs.

since the switch from Props to RS, it doesn’t *seem* like the focus is on the DAW, and I agree with others who are worried about the choice of words they’re using here making it seem like they’re shifting away from that. time will tell.

I'm just hoping that they RS have got the whole RRP thing the way they want it and are going to start focusing more on the Reason DAW.

I think the whole point of the content packs not being refills is to facilitate RRP along with the subscription service giving the whole RS tool chain for minimal price. Paying £€$20 per month allows any project to incorporate RRP into their workflow without having to commit several hundred £€$.

Let's face it the DAW is what gets more grief than the devices and the lack of true vst implementation is going to stop anyone switching from their chosen DAW into Reason standalone and until they RS start making the DAW better nobody is going to switch to using it by choice, but RRP is definitely going to interest some as their DAW was built from the ground up to use VST's where as ours "Reason standalone" never was.

[joeyluck]

Again, Mattias' comment was in response to someone requesting they sell the Reason rack separately. And guess what, you can't buy the rack without buying the DAW.

But they really should give away an empty rack with just the hardware IO and MIDIout devices for free to help the RE ecosystem to gain some traction.

I agree. I think it would be great

But be prepared for the thread that declares that there is no value given to anything with Reason. "It's all about the rack...there's no value given to the mixer or sequencer...and now the rack is free..." lol

[PhillipOrdonez]

Sorry Joey but an empty rack would not mean that Reason has no value.

I think the (empty? Bare bones?) rack included whenever a non Reason owner purchases any rack extension would be fine.

Regarding the cries of "they used words I don't like and think they mean this or that, it's the end of Reason"blah blah blah... Why not use the time and energy making music or learning something to improve your skills? That's right... Some users here don't really make music, they just read and write on music production forums and there's a consistent lack of positivity in anything they write

Slow robot said it best: time will tell.

Meanwhile, let us create. Those of us who actually create.

[demt]

Thanks im about to use the sequencer a lot its nice to know the oppose wise to me ,so its thanks to the core that still like it and best of luck with it in reason 12!

[demt]

Dam

[guitfnky]

for me, the DAW was actually the most important feature (5+Record Duo). coming from Digital Performer, which was a powerful, but absolutely unwieldy beast of a DAW, I was looking for something that made the process of recording as simple or as deep as I needed it to be. they rewarded my loyalty for a long time, really building out some of the main features I wanted (the pitch editor was a huge one for me).

I hope they continue adding core DAW features, but I’d be lying if I said the last couple of versions have been very encouraging in that regard. 7 new workflow improvements in a major release...I’m glad they added them—they’re long overdue, but they’re also not enough, when there’s a huge laundry list of deficiencies, compared to other DAWs.

since the switch from Props to RS, it doesn’t *seem* like the focus is on the DAW, and I agree with others who are worried about the choice of words they’re using here making it seem like they’re shifting away from that. time will tell.

Funny I got started with Reason 1 because it was already installed on a Mac G4 Cube I had bought from a friend. Also on it was Digital Performer (ver #?). So it was between those two that I was testing and Reason was the easy choice, even with the lack of audio recording then and so many other features. At that time, I found that working with Reason and Audacity (either exporting to Audacity or importing audio and triggering long audio tracks with NNXT) was still a better workflow for me than working with DP, which I think says a lot about the charm of Reason.

There are things I want like MPE support. I'm hoping that is something that comes with attention on the RRP as well. People want their instruments to have MPE support. VST devs are including it in all of their new instruments and also going back and updating their old instruments. So if Reason and its rack has a focus on being on instruments, that is going to be huge if they want it to compete and be relevant into the future. The push to update the browser with tags, etc. could also be helped by RRP users. Honestly, I think the graphics update has probably also been encouraged by requests from RRP users.

And there are still things I want to see improved with the Rack that I hope the RRP helps push—such as highlighting possible connections and double-click to assign connections: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7499734

yeah, DP is great, but the learning curve is huge. it does so much, but even then, it felt bloated. it's not much better now, in that regard, and I imagine that's why so few people tend to use it--so RS aren't the only DAW developers in town that are lacking in the UI-organization/presentation department. at least RS are doing something about it. DP has high-DPI (which looks great), but as far as I can tell, that really was just a re-skin, and the whole app is just as confusing as it used to be.

and for anyone who thinks some of the older Reason devices should get a graphical facelift, I'd say just take a look at some of the stock plugins still in DP. oof.

DPverb.jpg (102.5 KiB) Viewed 1719 times

DPsampler.jpg (30.82 KiB) Viewed 1719 times

[antic604]

I simply disagree with making a comment about a "DAW-less future" and then linking to a thread created that initially lacked context in which the answer being quoted is actually given to a user asking for the RRP to be sold separately and the current answer is that you can't buy it separately—you need to buy the DAW.

No, that's not what he said. He said that RRP with "some instruments" would cost the same as full Reason.

This is something completely different than what you're trying to make it to be.

Honestly I guess these threads should be merged? Whenever I see someone create a thread and then bump another thread to point to their thread, that's usually a confirmation that they should be merged.

No, they shouldn't.

And people want a free empty rack? So if that happens, I guess Reason then has no value?

How about a little effort and nuance in your thinking?

Empty RRP is worth nothing to the user, unless they own REs.

Empty RRP is worth a lot to RS, because it's a gateway to Add-on Shop. Otherwise no one would buy e.g. Algoritm or Friktion only to have to also buy Reason to use them (if they're not interested in Reason DAW and/or subscriptions).

[guitfnky]

yeah, I agree—giving away the empty RRP (no access to the DAW, of course) would be a pretty awesome move. think about it from a new user perspective, using another DAW. they load up Logic, and want to try out some Reason REs, so they get the RRP free, and head over to the Shop, and decide to trial a couple of instruments and effects. a perpetual free RRP license means they get to demo new REs along with the rest of us. if they decide they don’t like anything, no harm, no foul. if they pick something up, RS has a new customer.

that’s a win-win for everyone. customer-friendly, AND makes RS some money, AND having the customer in the ecosystem makes them more likely to want to keep going and maybe try the full Reason experience. what’s not to love?

[joeyluck]

yeah, I agree—giving away the empty RRP (no access to the DAW, of course) would be a pretty awesome move. think about it from a new user perspective, using another DAW. they load up Logic, and want to try out some Reason REs, so they get the RRP free, and head over to the Shop, and decide to trial a couple of instruments and effects. a perpetual free RRP license means they get to demo new REs along with the rest of us. if they decide they don’t like anything, no harm, no foul. if they pick something up, RS has a new customer.

that’s a win-win for everyone. customer-friendly, AND makes RS some money, AND having the customer in the ecosystem makes them more likely to want to keep going and maybe try the full Reason experience. what’s not to love?

Totally agree

I'm guessing they may have some stats based on all of the Reason Lite licenses people got for free? And it was through some very popular channels for more than 3 months. Maybe it was through some other channels too?

Entire month of July — Plugin Boutique included it for free with any purchase.
Last weekend of August — Waves gave it away to all of their customers via email.
For two full months Sep-Nov — Focusrite gave it away to their customers as part of the Plugin Collective.

Although that was the RRP with devices included... So maybe an empty rack encourages more purchases?

[guitfnky]

Although that was the RRP with devices included... So maybe an empty rack encourages more purchases?

that’s a really good point—seems like having no access to included devices probably would encourage more actual purchases. you don’t have free stock devices to fall back on, so you might not be as wishy-washy about buying that new compressor you like, etc.

[bangaio]

Not controversial IMO, without the amazing Rack, Reason is just another average DAW.

I only wish RS was more INTO the rack concept themselves, and we didn't have things like cable-less Player devices with no CV in/out, instruments like Complex-1 with only a single pair of CV in/out.
I'm sure if they thought hard about things there would be some possible improvements to be made in the way the Rack slots together and in the auto cabling system.
Perhaps have a look at other modern rack systems like VCV and Voltage Modular to get a few ideas.

This isn’t even close to the history. When reason was first announced VSTi was just coming online with VST2. DAWs as we know them now didn’t really exist and we had sequencers that could record audio, midi sequencers and hardware audio workstations.

There was nothing like reason and it really felt like the future. It was a rack because like other abstractions it represented what people knew - a rack of kit. For me it was mind blowing. I’d had some hardware bits and bobs and also tried out and failed to really get going with software solutions like cubasis and a free copy of logic on the pc!

Then I got rebirth and I was set. I just always had this “I would love to add a pad to this” feeling going on and resin would let me do this

However time has moved on and yes the rack is still an awesome and creative environment but for old school users reason wasn’t the rack. Reason was devices I couldn’t afford - loads of them, in a rack controlled by an easy to use sequencer that was made to measure - made for this devices.

Over time it has morphed and grown and just isn’t the sleek elegant solution we had in the early 00s and where other programs have adapted and changed over time
Reason has just bolted more and more bits on.

I’ll give some examples:

Reason comes with factory devices but not all of these are accessed by the call factory sound bank some are REs. No biggy but inconstancy is rife here with how to access them and their sounds.

V1 had a quantise button in the sequencer. This was moved to the horrific f8 panel along with other random bits. Sample editing anyone? Just moved and added to other bolt on bits. The sequencer is lacking both options in its main panel as well as shortcuts that other platforms give me.

I don’t buy the this is the easiest platform for beginners. Rubbish. Live is easier, bitwig is easier heck even logic is and not because they’re simple but because they have consistent behaviours.

The sequencer has outdated outmoded solutions. I double click to edit a midi track for example but now my ui has a close button that says close and has a cross. Really? In 2021?

It really makes me fed up that a product and company that I respected and loved has gone the way it has.

I still maintain if they want revenue make a killer product. A product that works on its own that is modern and sleek and innovative. I sadly just don’t think their company is big enough nor do they have the capacity or ability to pull something like this off and that makes me sad.

[PhillipOrdonez]

Although that was the RRP with devices included... So maybe an empty rack encourages more purchases?

that’s a really good point—seems like having no access to included devices probably would encourage more actual purchases. you don’t have free stock devices to fall back on, so you might not be as wishy-washy about buying that new compressor you like, etc.

I don't think an empty rack would be given away. Who would want it? I think they should just include it with any purchase... Want to buy algoritm but don't even own Reason? Maybe you liked playing with it during your Reason+ subscription and want to have it. You can buy it and use it cause it comes with the RRP that can load it!

[jam-s]

I don't think an empty rack would be given away. Who would want it? I think they should just include it with any purchase... Want to buy algoritm but don't even own Reason? Maybe you liked playing with it during your Reason+ subscription and want to have it. You can buy it and use it cause it comes with the RRP that can load it!

You could also use all the free REs in that free Reason Rack plugin, but I guess linking it to a first non-free purchase is the more sensible way to implement it.

[joeyluck]

that’s a really good point—seems like having no access to included devices probably would encourage more actual purchases. you don’t have free stock devices to fall back on, so you might not be as wishy-washy about buying that new compressor you like, etc.

I don't think an empty rack would be given away. Who would want it? I think they should just include it with any purchase... Want to buy algoritm but don't even own Reason? Maybe you liked playing with it during your Reason+ subscription and want to have it. You can buy it and use it cause it comes with the RRP that can load it!

I think that's the same general thinking here. It could be both. If the shop were integrated into Companion and/or the browser, that would be slick and it would make sense to make the empty rack available upfront. But it could also be made available when purchasing a RE...

I think RS would have to rework some things in the shop. They would still need something to prevent (or warn loudly) a Reason user who is on an earlier version from buying a certain RE that is incompatible with their standalone version of Reason... That person might think that they can use that RE in their Reason DAW (such as 6.5 for example). While they will certainly have access to it via the free empty RRP, they won't be able to use it with Reason standalone without upgrading.

[guitfnky]

that’s a really good point—seems like having no access to included devices probably would encourage more actual purchases. you don’t have free stock devices to fall back on, so you might not be as wishy-washy about buying that new compressor you like, etc.

I don't think an empty rack would be given away. Who would want it? I think they should just include it with any purchase... Want to buy algoritm but don't even own Reason? Maybe you liked playing with it during your Reason+ subscription and want to have it. You can buy it and use it cause it comes with the RRP that can load it!

you wouldn't want it on its own, but it would open the door for them to try stuff in the Shop. if you're curious about using Friktion, for example, and don't want to demo Reason/+ (or if you did demo it, but never got around to actually opening it and trying anything out), then you wouldn't want to have to buy Friktion before you could access the rack.

[PhillipOrdonez]

I don't think an empty rack would be given away. Who would want it? I think they should just include it with any purchase... Want to buy algoritm but don't even own Reason? Maybe you liked playing with it during your Reason+ subscription and want to have it. You can buy it and use it cause it comes with the RRP that can load it!

I think that's the same general thinking here. It could be both. If the shop were integrated into Companion and/or the browser, that would be slick and it would make sense to make the empty rack available upfront. But it could also be made available when purchasing a RE...

I think RS would have to rework some things in the shop. They would still need something to prevent (or warn loudly) a Reason user who is on an earlier version from buying a certain RE that is incompatible with their standalone version of Reason... That person might think that they can use that RE in their Reason DAW (such as 6.5 for example). While they will certainly have access to it via the free empty RRP, they won't be able to use it with Reason standalone without upgrading.

And then they would come here and cry about having bought this re but not being able to use it in Reason 6.5, their only daw

[PhillipOrdonez]

I don't think an empty rack would be given away. Who would want it? I think they should just include it with any purchase... Want to buy algoritm but don't even own Reason? Maybe you liked playing with it during your Reason+ subscription and want to have it. You can buy it and use it cause it comes with the RRP that can load it!

You could also use all the free REs in that free Reason Rack plugin, but I guess linking it to a first non-free purchase is the more sensible way to implement it.

You still "purchase" the free Res. Simply include it with those as well. ‍♂️