Mattias: "Reason is the rack and you can use it as a plug-in or standalone with its own sequencer and mixer etc."

[EnochLight]

Yeah I just don't really agree with that. To me, the rack is everything that goes in it - all of Reason's instruments, effects, and utilities. Things that people have been using in other DAW via ReWire since Reason came out. We're arguing semantics, IMHO.

Actually, I’m just sharing my thoughts, not saying I’m right and you’re wrong (as in an “argument). Not trying to change your mind, just making sure you’re not trying to change mine either!

No, not at all - in fact - it's awesome to see two mods actually disagree on stuff. Maybe some folks will realize we're actually humans and not paid RS shills afterall!

[avasopht]

Actually, I’m just sharing my thoughts, not saying I’m right and you’re wrong (as in an “argument). Not trying to change your mind, just making sure you’re not trying to change mine either!

OK, so in Pro Tools you put instruments into mixer channels instead of a rack, but otherwise it’s no different, right? The mixer is the “a container” for instruments.
But my point/feeling is it the CABLES that makes Reason unique. Take away the cables and you basically have every other DAW, just arranged differently on the screen - what we call “the rack” in Reason is called “the mixer” in Pro Tools, etc. Sure, you can do very basic routing in Pro Tools, but nothing like what Reason can do because of its cable paradigm.
That’s what I mean when I say for me it’s the cables not the rack. You could have cables in Pro Tools too, but you don’t - and Pro Tools could also add a “rack” but not add cables, and you STILL a wouldn’t have the power of Reason IMO. That logic leads me to conclude the cables, not the rack, are the biggest part of the Reason experience for me. And that’s why I prefer Reason! Maybe for you and others, it;s not the cables but the wood and metal simulated rack rails and/or the vertical stacking of instruments (air something else) that allow you to do things you can’t do in other DAWs - that’s great, but it’s not how I feel, that’s all. To each their own!

The cables are part of the rack metaphor, so I think most people would consider the cables to be a key part of the rack, not just the way things are laid out and presented/rendered.

But you are right, the routing options could have been done via other means like a matrix (or even a dropdown menu to which device to connect to) or with nodes. You could even consider Guitar Rig to have racks (its modulation is much the like cable routing but with fewer options).

No, not at all - in fact - it's awesome to see two mods actually disagree on stuff. Maybe some folks will realize we're actually humans and not paid RS shills afterall!

Or they might think this is all just theatre to distract us from the super-secret merger between Reason Studios and Behringer (who will make it their first point of call to replace all our knobs and sliders with cheaper ones that jam and fall off after the warranty's up).

[Carpainter]

Maybe for you and others, it;s not the cables but the wood and metal simulated rack rails and/or the vertical stacking of instruments (air something else) that allow you to do things you can’t do in other DAWs - that’s great, but it’s not how I feel, that’s all. To each their own!

It's the cables and the fact that Propellerhead was the first developer to bother drawing the back of an instrument with inputs and outputs that looked and behaved like hardware.

I get the same feeling using Reason to make music that I get when using programs like Painter and Sketchbook to make art. I don't get that feeling with other DAWs.

[antic604]

I've been using it for nearly 19 years now. That means that in my backup harddrive I have 19 years worth of material that can only be opened in reason standalone.

There is absolutely no conceivable way Reason Studios would be stupid enough to think they could push users like me onto RRP by doing what you've suggested. They'd lose them for good.

I explained in one of my earlier posts - no, they would not!

Assuming you're a perpetual license holder - which is the case for 100% of people having "years worth of material" - you're not gonna leave because:

a) you can still open your old projects in last Reason DAW version you have license for;

b) you'll keep upgrading the RRP, at least occasionally, to retain access to REs you've invested in while the underlying OS and hardware make previous versions non-functioning; what's $150 every 2-4 years if you've sunk $2-3k in REs that you can't sell?;

c) you'll perhaps buy an odd instrument, FX or Player because why the hell not? you're paying anyway! and let's face it - they're pretty good a lot of the time, too!

--------------------------

Sure, some people will simply stop using anything Reason just to spite them, but that's not gonna be the majority.

Also remember it's not Props at the steering wheel anymore, so they don't have any emotional ties with the "old" users. As a VC, what they care for is a business model that has a chance of generating steady and hopefully growing revenue stream going forward. That's gonna be covered by Reason+ subs & RE sales, not by cranky Reason DAW users who demand track folders, user-definable keyboard shortcuts and track freezing. Guess what - with RRP they've outsourced all of that to other devs

They're probably also considering alternative revenue streams, hinted at by their CTO at Juce conference in 2019, e.g. running RE devices on hardware and in the web. Notice, hardware units don't need sequencer or mixer, and all the demos of web-based stuff from them was always just the rack, too.

Ok, I've "argued myself into oblivion" by now

It's very likely, as @EnochLight says, that Reason was always mainly about the rack and it's just me who really liked the whole package and is sad to see it go... I'm not one of those people who'll sound-design in Bitwig, arrange in Live, mix in Studio One and master in ProTools. I'm more of the one-DAW-per-project person and I fear it won't be possible with Reason anymore. And no other DAW felt a complete, perfectly integrated environment like Reason does.

[bangaio]

You aren't alone Antic - I saw it as the complete package and for me using Reason in other DAWs just doesn't feel right.

[EnochLight]

Also remember it's not Props at the steering wheel anymore, so they don't have any emotional ties with the "old" users. As a VC, what they care for is a business model that has a chance of generating steady and hopefully growing revenue stream going forward. That's gonna be covered by Reason+ subs & RE sales, not by cranky Reason DAW users who demand track folders, user-definable keyboard shortcuts and track freezing.

Totally agree. That said, no VC in their right mind would turn their back on 60% of the customer base for your main product, IMHO anyway. Literally at least 60% of Reason's user base still use it as a standalone DAW, according to the Product Manager:

https://www.reasonstudios.com/blog/what ... for-reason

plugin_use.JPG (86.11 KiB) Viewed 1589 times

I mean, even if standalone DAW use shrinks to 25%, that's still a massive chunk of your user base. As such, I really don't see RS abandoning core standalone DAW stuff in Reason anytime soon (though you know as well as I do that they will NEVER add enough features to make us all happy).

[Billy+]

Well this thread has been going on long enough for someone official to have popped in and claim the waters......

I've had my miss information corrected within hours, so maybe there is some truth in it after all

[avasopht]

I've been using it for nearly 19 years now. That means that in my backup harddrive I have 19 years worth of material that can only be opened in reason standalone.

There is absolutely no conceivable way Reason Studios would be stupid enough to think they could push users like me onto RRP by doing what you've suggested. They'd lose them for good.

I explained in one of my earlier posts - no, they would not!

Assuming you're a perpetual license holder - which is the case for 100% of people having "years worth of material" - you're not gonna leave because:

a) you can still open your old projects in last Reason DAW version you have license for;

b) you'll keep upgrading the RRP, at least occasionally, to retain access to REs you've invested in while the underlying OS and hardware make previous versions non-functioning; what's $150 every 2-4 years if you've sunk $2-3k in REs that you can't sell?;

c) you'll perhaps buy an odd instrument, FX or Player because why the hell not? you're paying anyway! and let's face it - they're pretty good a lot of the time, too!

That doesn't make sense.

If I'm upgrading RRP to access REs due to OS and hardware making previous versions non-functioning, it also means that, no, I cannot open old reason projects. You can't have both A and B be true.

But this is just not how people think at all. However much they've spent on REs is irrelevant. You cannot rope people in like that (especially when it involves them having to get down and dirty with a DAW and other options for plugins). I don't know who gave you the idea something like this would work.

You're also making a lot of assumptions about hardware and OS support. PC's have made their final major leap (to 64-bit) while still being able to run old versions of Reason, Windows has no need to make any breaking features for a long while, and Apple will not be changing architecture any time soon.

Would this work for you? Do you know people who would be happy with this? Has anything like this ever worked in the past?

People who are only interested in Reason standalone aren't necessarily going to pay for a new DAW just to access RRP. It's not only a completely different purchase decision, but it's also buying into a completely different type of solution and workflow. Being interested in Reason Standalone doesn't mean you will be happy for it to be dropped and reduced to a plugin, and continue to pay for upgrades to RRP.

When I use Ableton Live, RRP is optional. If they drop Reason, it will be outright uninstalled.

Maybe you would. But if you think most people would be happy with this, you have a lot to learn about how most people think.

Feel free to prove me wrong with a poll on "if RS dropped Reason standalone (to make more profit by charging you the same amount for fewer features), would you continue to pay for RRP in order to access your REs and the Reason Rack as a VST in another DAW?"

[QVprod]

James has stated on here that the user base is now split about 50/50 between users of the plugin and users of the standalone. Given that the plugin did not exist before Reason 11 that's an astonishingly fast adoption rate. So I think in the very near future plugin users are going to outnumber standalone users by some margin and if you stand back and look at it in cold, hard business terms it makes perfect sense to focus development on the plugin.

It's really not that fast. You're forgetting many users were Rewire users. They got a lot of return customers because of that. Seeing as many standalone users didn't see value in upgrading for the plugin, the math makes a lot of sense. I don't see there being another jump like that though.

[avasopht]

Also remember it's not Props at the steering wheel anymore, so they don't have any emotional ties with the "old" users. As a VC, what they care for is a business model that has a chance of generating steady and hopefully growing revenue stream going forward. That's gonna be covered by Reason+ subs & RE sales, not by cranky Reason DAW users who demand track folders, user-definable keyboard shortcuts and track freezing.

Totally agree. That said, no VC in their right mind would turn their back on 60% of the customer base for your main product, IMHO anyway. Literally at least 60% of Reason's user base still use it as a standalone DAW, according to the Product Manager:

https://www.reasonstudios.com/blog/what ... for-reason

plugin_use.JPG

I mean, even if standalone DAW use shrinks to 25%, that's still a massive chunk of your user base. As such, I really don't see RS abandoning core standalone DAW stuff in Reason anytime soon (though you know as well as I do that they will NEVER add enough features to make us all happy).

Two questions:
1. Do they use RRP exclusively? And did they only get it as a one-off purchase to access old Refills and tinker with the rack.
2. What version of RRP are they using? And how many of them got RRP free from PluginBoutique or as part of some other deal?

[joeyluck]

Well this thread has been going on long enough for someone official to have popped in and claim the waters......

I've had my miss information corrected within hours, so maybe there is some truth in it after all

*misinformation? I see what you did there. You've been corrected

Yeah, let's speculate about every word from anything said by anybody, make claims based on interpretations, and expect responses because otherwise whatever claims made must be true. That's an awful strategy and expectation.

[Billy+]

Well this thread has been going on long enough for someone official to have popped in and claim the waters......

I've had my miss information corrected within hours, so maybe there is some truth in it after all

*misinformation? I see what you did there. You've been corrected

Yeah, let's speculate about every word from anything said by anybody, make claims based on interpretations, and expect responses because otherwise whatever claims made must be true. That's an awful strategy and expectation.

Yeah I was bored so I thought I would join in , I've moved on since....

[zoidkirb]

A Mattias flaps his wings over at KVR and a tsunami happens at RT:
a beautiful example of the butterfly effect in action.
By the way, are rack screws included in the rack?

[jam-s]

By the way, are rack screws included in the rack?

Only the first two dozen. Then its up to you to buy Refills of them.

[EnochLight]

Two questions:
1. Do they use RRP exclusively? And did they only get it as a one-off purchase to access old Refills and tinker with the rack.
2. What version of RRP are they using? And how many of them got RRP free from PluginBoutique or as part of some other deal?

No clue. But if that 40% of said Reason RRP users also include some who use Reason in standalone sometimes, then that just increases the amount of people who find value in standalone. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ That PluginBoutique deal was for Reason Lite (which came with a Lite version of RRP, which is extremely scaled down). Either way, that also gives people access to the Shop to buy Rack Extensions, and use any of their RE's that they already have, so I guess there's that. Lol

[bangaio]

More people can use reason the way they want to... really. You could also spin this to saying more people are using reason in other software because they have to as those other programs are better.

[antic604]

A Mattias flaps his wings over at KVR and a tsunami happens at RT:
a beautiful example of the butterfly effect in action.
By the way, are rack screws included in the rack?

For you and I, he's "THE" Mattias

[antic604]

Feel free to prove me wrong with a poll on "if RS dropped Reason standalone (to make more profit by charging you the same amount for fewer features), would you continue to pay for RRP in order to access your REs and the Reason Rack as a VST in another DAW?"

This is actually a good idea. With a small correction - not if, but when

[avasopht]

This is actually a good idea. With a small correction - not if, but when

Behave

That being said ... I kinda think it might be a good idea. But it's something they should have done a long time ago. Imagine if, instead of ReWire, we got RRP and DAW integration with Audio Pitch Editor and ReCycle (ReCycle used to be sort of integrated into Cubase when it first came out BTW)? But they'd be competing more directly with Native Instruments ... ...

[antic604]

That being said ... I kinda think it might be a good idea.

It's already up: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7522298

[flexluthor]

Also remember it's not Props at the steering wheel anymore, so they don't have any emotional ties with the "old" users. As a VC, what they care for is a business model that has a chance of generating steady and hopefully growing revenue stream going forward. That's gonna be covered by Reason+ subs & RE sales, not by cranky Reason DAW users who demand track folders, user-definable keyboard shortcuts and track freezing.

Totally agree. That said, no VC in their right mind would turn their back on 60% of the customer base for your main product, IMHO anyway. Literally at least 60% of Reason's user base still use it as a standalone DAW, according to the Product Manager:

https://www.reasonstudios.com/blog/what ... for-reason

plugin_use.JPG

I mean, even if standalone DAW use shrinks to 25%, that's still a massive chunk of your user base. As such, I really don't see RS abandoning core standalone DAW stuff in Reason anytime soon (though you know as well as I do that they will NEVER add enough features to make us all happy).

That isn't what it says. It says 40% of total users use it as a plugin. That doesn't imply that only 60% use it as a DAW. I'm sure there is a large overlap between plugin and DAW users. I use reason as a plugin, plus I use it as a DAW.

[EnochLight]

That isn't what it says. It says 40% of total users use it as a plugin. That doesn't imply that only 60% use it as a DAW. I'm sure there is a large overlap between plugin and DAW users. I use reason as a plugin, plus I use it as a DAW.

The point is, there is still a massive amount of standalone Reason DAW users, and it's extremely unlikely that they would abandon the core DAW portion of Reason. What it does imply is that at least 60% still use it as a DAW (either part of the time or all of the time), but it's very likely more.