Where is Reason going ?

[Billy+]

Full vst midi 2 & 3
Actually useful numbers rather than integer ranges in automation lanes

[integerpoet]

from memory:

freeze
track folders
hotkeys
scalable ui upgrade
punch in

OK, so part two of my question is: What do those bullet points mean to you?

I can guess (but only guess) what "freeze" means. Something about rendering MIDI to audio to reduce CPU load? I suppose that would be better than bouncing, but I don't have a problem with CPU load often enough that the existing bounce functionality isn't good enough for me. Or perhaps my guess is wildly off in the weeds; feel free to school me.

I sort of know what "track folders" might be: tracks arrangeable in some kind of hierarchy. I tend to group tracks together by color now. (For example: soloist, sopranos, altos, tenors, basses.) That approach seems to work well enough for me. Any hierarchical needs I have are expressed with mix busses. (For example, I might route all sopranos to a soprano bus, where I run them all through a single high-pass filter.) Feel free to school me on the virtues of track folders that I might be missing.

I know what hotkeys are in general but I don't feel any annoyance about missing ones. I do find myself occasionally annoyed lately that the zoom hotkeys don't work because something isn't focused the way I expect, but that feels to me like a recently developed bug rather than a missing feature.

I saw in the other thread that scalable UI upgrade is popular. This one I do understand quite well. It would indeed look nicer, but I personally am not lusting for this. I'm running a 5K display at the highest available resolution. I have glasses just for my computer desk (not just for Reason but also for Final Cut Pro and for web browsing and whatever else). My eyes are probably among the oldest in this forum. And I do fine. Do lots of other people have greater need for this?

I have no clue what "punch in" might be. I look forward to learning not only what that means to you but why it's important.

[EdwardKiy]

OK, so part two of my question is: What do those bullet points mean to you?

I can guess (but only guess) what "freeze" means. Something about rendering MIDI to audio to reduce CPU load? I suppose that would be better than bouncing, but I don't have a problem with CPU load often enough that the existing bounce functionality isn't good enough for me. Or perhaps my guess is wildly off in the weeds; feel free to school me.

I sort of know what "track folders" might be: tracks arrangeable in some kind of hierarchy. I tend to group tracks together by color now. (For example: soloist, sopranos, altos, tenors, basses.) That approach seems to work well enough for me. Feel free to school me on the virtues of folders that I might be missing.

I know what hotkeys are in general but I don't feel any annoyance about missing ones. I do find myself occasionally annoyed that zoom hotkeys don't work because something isn't focused the way I expect, but that feels to me like a bug rather than a missing feature.

I saw in the other thread that scalable UI upgrade is popular. This one I do understand quite well. It would indeed look nicer, but I personally am not lusting for this. I'm running a 5K display at the highest available resolution. I have glasses just for my computer desk. My eyes are probably among the oldest in this forum. And I do fine.

I have no clue what "punch in" might be. I look forward to learning.

almost nothing. this isn't my top 5 list.

You are correct in your assumptions of what those features mean. Here's punch in/out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_in/out

Of these I needed the freeze function badly when the only work tool I had was my laptop, but I upgraded to a desktop pc, because I couldn't hope for RS implementing a function so basic. It's already there, by the way, they just couldn't bother making a macro of the functions available. Now of these top 5 I just want the hotkeys. For the high res I only care about as a fix to the following problem: every time I open a project, all the windows are sized randomly and not in a way I last saved them. Every. Single. Time. As to what "I think", I've stated my views plentifully in the "feature request" subforum.

But if you're curious to the origins of the outrage, it's not even the ever-ignored list of missing feature requests that pissed the users off. The answer is illuminated multiple times throughout the 97+ pages of that longest thread and by people more articulate than myself. Sorry for dropping it here, but I've already burnt too much time over this and too many times.

Also, if you're not at least 75, you're a spring chicken by this forum's standards.

[integerpoet]

But if you're curious to the origins of the outrage, it's not even the ever-ignored list of missing feature requests that pissed the users off. The answer is illuminated multiple times throughout the 97+ pages of that longest thread and by people more articulate than myself. Sorry for dropping it here, but I've already burnt too much time over this and too many times.

So I went and dug up the 97+ (98 at the moment) page thread which until now hadn't really attracted my attention because I already thunk all the thinks I wanted about the new subscription model. I didn't read everything because it's pretty chaotic and repetitive and, frankly, predictable, but in any case after that many pages I can see why you wouldn't want to dive in again. So I won't make you.

But it's great that we identified what was really bothering you. Because from my perspective whatever one's opinion might be about a subscription, it's separate from the app itself. We don't know how much progress the app will have made after, say, the first five years of the subscription model. It's true there's some uncertainty and it could turn out that the masses are happy to shell out for little more than sound packs and RS is happy to do little more than cash the checks and the app withers. Or, you know what could also happen? The profits from the steady drip of sound packs could be used to fund development of more substantive features such as the app and the app gets more engineering attention than it otherwise would. We don't know, and not knowing can suck, but you know what sucks worse? Pessimism unsupported by evidence.

Notice I haven't tried to convince you here that you should be happy about the subscription model.

[R303]

Ok, many comments here right now, the main problem is that PH/RS only reacts to other DAWs. The competition is going ahead, RS have to follow.
This has been the case for years and I think it will stay that way for now.

The upgrade to R11 was almost useless for older users although many hopes and wishes were expressed. And if R12 has a score editor for example, i'm also out and wait for the next version. No problem for me.

In a few years they 'll have many requests integrated, but R12 is probably coming too soon.

[Popey]

But if you're curious to the origins of the outrage, it's not even the ever-ignored list of missing feature requests that pissed the users off. The answer is illuminated multiple times throughout the 97+ pages of that longest thread and by people more articulate than myself. Sorry for dropping it here, but I've already burnt too much time over this and too many times.

So I went and dug up the 97+ (98 at the moment) page thread which until now hadn't really attracted my attention because I already thunk all the thinks I wanted about the new subscription model. I didn't read everything because it's pretty chaotic and repetitive and, frankly, predictable, but in any case after that many pages I can see why you wouldn't want to dive in again. So I won't make you.

But it's great that we identified what was really bothering you. Because from my perspective whatever one's opinion might be about a subscription, it's separate from the app itself. We don't know how much progress the app will have made after, say, the first five years of the subscription model. It's true there's some uncertainty and it could turn out that the masses are happy to shell out for little more than sound packs and RS is happy to do little more than cash the checks and the app withers. Or, you know what could also happen? The profits from the steady drip of sound packs could be used to fund development of more substantive features such as the app and the app gets more engineering attention than it otherwise would. We don't know, and not knowing can suck, but you know what sucks worse? Pessimism unsupported by evidence.

Notice I haven't tried to convince you here that you should be happy about the subscription model.

I think you hit the nail on the head with saying we don't know and that is half the problem. Long term daw users want improvements to the daw and currently they see the focus on rrp, sound packs and rack extensions. What you say about profits from sound packs leading to improvements to the daw is probably want the majority here want (and have wanted for a long time).

Your comment about pessimism unsupported by evidence made me chuckle as I have kinda been the opposite. For a long time I wanted things like track freeze, folders, fully functioning vst etc and as rs frequent here and read social media responses I was quietly confident they would implement these things. Sadly to date they havent so kinda felt I had optimism unsupported by evidence so far.

[plaamook]

... but R12 is probably coming too soon.

If by 'too soon' you mean half baked...well, they seem to have had since R10 to work on it as R11 was a rim shot. Point update at best. How much time could they have possibly put into it?

[Rackman]

This thread deserves a one word answer:

Nowhere.

[EdwardKiy]

Pessimism unsupported by evidence.

Notice I haven't tried to convince you here that you should be happy about the subscription model.

I am simply neutral to the Reason+ (option) itself, it doesn't concern me. The way I see it, it makes sense for new users to try out the ropes. It's what it's aimed at and whom it's marketed to.

I've started with naming the evidence, of which there are 3 sources, so it's super easy to check. It's all quite real and conclusive, any way you look at it.

[Jagwah]

Props don't see other DAWs as their competition, they see products like Arcade as their competition. I am not imagining this. The paint by numbers musical devices and softwares that are not aimed at actual in the know musicians but at the ignorant wannabes that will ignorantly open their wallets lead by clever and expensive marketing.

[Heater]

Hence my question.

no problem

from memory:

freeze
track folders
hotkeys
scalable ui upgrade
punch in

So glad you mentioned freeze. Been asking for years.

[plaamook]

Props don't see other DAWs as their competition, they see products like Arcade as their competition. I am not imagining this. The paint by numbers musical devices and softwares that are not aimed at actual in the know musicians but at the ignorant wannabes that will ignorantly open their wallets lead by clever and expensive marketing.

I don't think the compose-by-numbers approach warrents VST's and Midi out and so on. Those are toys for adults generally. So it would seem like there's a vaster vision unfolding here in that there's been at least an attempt to make it out of the play pen.

[tronam]

I may be the odd one out, and I do like skeuomorphism when done tastefully, but I have always found the Reason mixer to be a misguided design on computer monitors. I've seen how it can work out pretty well on a multi-monitor setup, but in a single monitor workflow it's one of my least favorite aspects of modern Reason. Vertical screen real estate is always in shorter supply on computer displays and I never got used to the SSL mixer's extreme verticality. Maybe I'd like it more if they offered a couple of wide-mixer view modes that did a better job of condensing all of the tools like most channel strip plugins. Otherwise I much prefer using those effects broken out as rack plugins.

[QVprod]

I may be the odd one out, and I do like skeuomorphism when done tastefully, but I have always found the Reason mixer to be a misguided design on computer monitors. I've seen how it can work out pretty well on a multi-monitor setup, but in a single monitor workflow it's one of my least favorite aspects of modern Reason. Vertical screen real estate is always in shorter supply on computer displays and I never got used to the SSL mixer's extreme verticality. Maybe I'd like it more if they offered a couple of wide-mixer view modes that did a better job of condensing all of the tools like most channel strip plugins. Otherwise I much prefer using those effects broken out as rack plugins.

Agreed on the mixer. Went from 2 monitors to 1 (I surprisingly don’t miss the 2nd) but the Reason mixer in a single screen setup is a little weird to get used to. You can collapse sections of it though or click on a section in the little navigator on the right hand side to quickly get to a desired section. I often forget that option’s there myself.

Regarding direction, coming from the other side of the fence, I think the direction is the same as it’s been. Started with Reason 3. Never noticed a shift. Whether that’s for better or for worse is a different matter. I too once thought they might try to be competitive with other DAWs after 6.5. I gave up on that after 7. As is, it’s an incredible workstation instrument, like Machine - minus the hardware. (Sidenote: I just got into Machine and fell in love with it!)

I don’t think anyone’s negating it’s flaws though. I use multiple DAWs, so clearly I’m aware of them.. I’ll admit my bias though, as some features people want, I’ve tried in Studio One (track freeze, track folders) and found very little use for. But I also don’t generally have 50 tracks going in a song, where I suppose the desire for it makes sense.

[Billy+]

I still don't think there is anything that comes close to Reason I love Reason for the same reasons now as I did when it first came out, I don't want to learn another DAW.

Most of the major upgrades have introduced things that you didn't know you wanted until you got them, but after the introduction of vst support after years of saying they wouldn't actually opened the door to wanting more and years later I'm still asking why they haven't completed the implementation.

I brought the last upgrade as I assumed that it must be on the horizon at some point they've never really communicated the direction for anything but have always managed to hit the spot at some point but since V10 something has changed and everything seems to be about fitting Reason into other workflows not actually putting its DAW to the front of the market.

[guitfnky]

one thing I think most of us can agree on—we should have a really good sense of what direction RS is headed after they announce 12, for good or bad. whether they lean even more into the RRP/Reason-as-an-instrument side of things, or show that they’re in it for the long haul on the DAW side, each of us should be pretty confident whether their direction is right for us.

that’s a good thing, even for those of us who won’t like the answer.

[Goriila Texas]

Wow I'm really surprised that you don't take advantage of track folders it makes your project space incredibly organized. I also use maschine and created audio tracks for it's outputs so that's 16 channels. In order to see inputs, midi keyboard for 16 tracks you have to zoom out or those channels take up most of the screen. Putting drums in a track folder or group has been huge for me.

I may be the odd one out, and I do like skeuomorphism when done tastefully, but I have always found the Reason mixer to be a misguided design on computer monitors. I've seen how it can work out pretty well on a multi-monitor setup, but in a single monitor workflow it's one of my least favorite aspects of modern Reason. Vertical screen real estate is always in shorter supply on computer displays and I never got used to the SSL mixer's extreme verticality. Maybe I'd like it more if they offered a couple of wide-mixer view modes that did a better job of condensing all of the tools like most channel strip plugins. Otherwise I much prefer using those effects broken out as rack plugins.

Agreed on the mixer. Went from 2 monitors to 1 (I surprisingly don’t miss the 2nd) but the Reason mixer in a single screen setup is a little weird to get used to. You can collapse sections of it though or click on a section in the little navigator on the right hand side to quickly get to a desired section. I often forget that option’s there myself.

Regarding direction, coming from the other side of the fence, I think the direction is the same as it’s been. Started with Reason 3. Never noticed a shift. Whether that’s for better or for worse is a different matter. I too once thought they might try to be competitive with other DAWs after 6.5. I gave up on that after 7. As is, it’s an incredible workstation instrument, like Machine - minus the hardware. (Sidenote: I just got into Machine and fell in love with it!)

I don’t think anyone’s negating it’s flaws though. I use multiple DAWs, so clearly I’m aware of them.. I’ll admit my bias though, as some features people want, I’ve tried in Studio One (track freeze, track folders) and found very little use for. But I also don’t generally have 50 tracks going in a song, where I suppose the desire for it makes sense.

[tronam]

It's funny to reflect on all of the "future of Reason" crystal ball threads I've participated in over the past 15+ years, from PUF to now. Some things never change. One of these days I need to go back through the wayback machine and see just how wrong most of my passionate pontificating was. I'm not sure I want to revisit the toxicity though. ReasonTalk is far better moderated. Or, more accurately, it actually has moderators.

[Goriila Texas]

I remember you going hard on the old forum and KVR defending Reason and PH and I was shocked when I read something negative about Reason the other day. Shocked!! It's crazy watching the metamorphosis of a fanboy into one of us who get called negative for speaking truth. I'm actually intrigued on what is the final straw that woke people like you up? I'm wondering does awakening happen after fanboys reach a certain skillset? It's been like 5 years I guess since the PUF shutdown maybe your skills have increased to the point you finally see the light people like me have been preaching years ago.

Anyway, welcome to the light and the dark side of the force on this forum

It's funny to reflect on all of the "future of Reason" crystal ball threads I've participated in over the past 15+ years, from PUF to now. Some things never change. One of these days I need to go back through the wayback machine and see just how wrong most of my passionate pontificating was. I'm not sure I want to revisit the toxicity though. ReasonTalk is far better moderated. Or, more accurately, it actually has moderators.

[tronam]

At the time I liked the stable, perfectly backward compatible sandbox nature of Reason. I still do actually and find it amazing that I can continue to load old projects from 2001 and they all still play. It’s not unlike being able to revisit my Protracker mods from the 90s. Most everything else pre-64bit consists of fractured, and likely forever broken projects. The Record era is when I checked out for a while, using other DAWs for things like Kontakt, scoring to picture and notation. Modern Reason since v6 has been a mixed bag for me. It’s still a fun, creative environment for making music, but the workflow hasn’t aged well for me. That’s just my own experience though. Plenty get along just fine with it and I’m always impressed by those who fly through the rack, mixer, and sequencer views and have learned to really leverage blocks to its fullest potential.

[Jagwah]

one thing I think most of us can agree on—we should have a really good sense of what direction RS is headed after they announce 12, for good or bad. whether they lean even more into the RRP/Reason-as-an-instrument side of things, or show that they’re in it for the long haul on the DAW side, each of us should be pretty confident whether their direction is right for us.

that’s a good thing, even for those of us who won’t like the answer.

I feel like this idea comes up every cycle - 'surely we will have a better idea where they are heading if X feature is ignored again this upgrade.' Ten years later it is still ignored and we must seem like that guy at work who hates his job and tells everyone he is going to quit every day. It's a real sh*t show, but I think the backlash is getting to a point where it is actually starting to make them look pretty bad - you can't deny company videos with 80% dislike ratios. It is extremely well known now that there's a mass of discontent out there and it's only going to be magnified the next time they ignore it all over again, for the umpteenth time.

Still I agree it's going to be interesting and telling what happens next.

[RoryM0]

Whenever R12 releases, no matter what it looks like good or bad... ReasonTalk is going to meltdown and it's going to be AWESOME. 100 page threads will be the new normal.

[plaamook]

Whenever R12 releases, no matter what it looks like good or bad... ReasonTalk is going to meltdown and it's going to be AWESOME. 100 page threads will be the new normal.

Absolutely!
I don't bother with most online junk like netflix series or gaming or social media or anything really, so I really look forward to RT meltdowns!
Ah...the simple life

[plaamook]

...and years later I'm still asking why they haven't completed the implementation.

Hmm...lets see...From the Top!

Audio implimentation...still can't edit properly
Recycle integration...well, we got 'slice edit mode'
I do't use midi out so feel free to add what you like there...
VST implementation...still don't have VST 2-3
RRP....can't load VST's in the Rack. (Deal breaker for me)
Pretty much pick a parameter that could go all the way to Z...just make it go to M instead.
Then there's JP's list of a thousand cuts...
And all the stuff I've missed...

That's Reason. We love it anyway I guess.
R12 is gonna be a banger, I just know it!

[chimp_spanner]

Props don't see other DAWs as their competition, they see products like Arcade as their competition. I am not imagining this. The paint by numbers musical devices and softwares that are not aimed at actual in the know musicians but at the ignorant wannabes that will ignorantly open their wallets lead by clever and expensive marketing.

I've been doing music (in some form or another) since I was about 6. I'm 37 now. I absolutely see the value in sound packs, loops, presets and tools to speed up the process or otherwise allow me to "stumble" across inspiration. Yeah maybe that makes it easier for people who don't really know what they're doing but tbh I'm way past caring if what I do is seen as hard. All I care about is that I enjoy making it, and ideally if other people enjoy listening to it. A discerning ear will still know the difference. And anyone who doesn't...probably isn't who I'm aiming at. Music is easy now. Old codgers like me can either get salty about it or just deal with it and do what makes *us* happy without expecting any fanfare for it.

Also ya know, I just don't have the free time I used to. My day job is all-consuming. I don't even have kids but if I did, I'd have even less time. Increasingly I find less joy in tinkering and re-designing the wheel (or the kick, or the bass) and more joy in just playing with my equipment and sounds more like toys. And it's not like Reason are taking things away (inbefore someone mentions the ONE thing they took away, L6 amps lol). So I can get deep when I want to.