What will a perpetual licence upgrade bring?

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Popey
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29 Jan 2021

This is purely a hypothetical question but since the livestream I have been trying to guess what reason + means for us that like to own licences. Historically reason upgrades have brought new synths, fx etc which has made it seem a worthwhile purchase (europa,grain etc)

With 11 we saw the introduction of suite which meant for the first time there were differences in that suite owners got scenic and a bunch of re,s and everyone else got the two fx and the ssl devices as seperate devices free.

Now it makes business sense to lock the new synth etc behind the sub and perpetual licence owners will have to buy this separately but is this now going to be the norm. Will we get any new devices in licence upgrades or will it just be workflow updates with potentially an old rs device added to stock? Perhaps perpetual licences will be cheaper now?

Appreciate peoples thoughts on possibly how this may go? Suppose new version will answer our questions but be good if a reason studio employee could offer some clarity.

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Loque
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29 Jan 2021

I speculate, that the HiRes UI will come with 12. I dont expect much else.

And i think in long term, we might see exclusive content for R+, whatever content this means. Currently its the Packs, in future it might be Tutorials, Videos, Chats, Pro-Assistance, Mastering-Service, RE, who knows. I think R+ could develop in every direction and i think this is quite exciting. Not sure if it is my cup of tea, but this is something for the BIG other thread...

So, yes, hires only IMO.
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Ottostrom
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29 Jan 2021

Loque wrote:
29 Jan 2021
I speculate, that the HiRes UI will come with 12. I dont expect much else.
This is also what I expect and fear. Like, the high res update is definitely gonna be nice but it's not gonna add much in terms of functionality since I really haven't had a problem with how Reason currently look. They might add track folders just cause some users have been shouting it from the rooftops but I'm not counting on much more than that.
I would happily be proven wrong tho!

Popey
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29 Jan 2021

Loque wrote:
29 Jan 2021
I speculate, that the HiRes UI will come with 12. I dont expect much else.

And i think in long term, we might see exclusive content for R+, whatever content this means. Currently its the Packs, in future it might be Tutorials, Videos, Chats, Pro-Assistance, Mastering-Service, RE, who knows. I think R+ could develop in every direction and i think this is quite exciting. Not sure if it is my cup of tea, but this is something for the BIG other thread...

So, yes, hires only IMO.
Thanks Loque. Can this be moved to other thread if you think it belongs better there? Personally think this was slightly different but happy if it needs moving.

Hires isn't something personally I am overly excited about but know lots are. Previously have always found something in upgrades to make me think they are worthwhile and thus why I am now thinking what + means for me moving forward with regard perpetual upgrades.

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Loque
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29 Jan 2021

Ottostrom wrote:
29 Jan 2021
Loque wrote:
29 Jan 2021
I speculate, that the HiRes UI will come with 12. I dont expect much else.
This is also what I expect and fear. Like, the high res update is definitely gonna be nice but it's not gonna add much in terms of functionality since I really haven't had a problem with how Reason currently look. They might add track folders just cause some users have been shouting it from the rooftops but I'm not counting on much more than that.
I would happily be proven wrong tho!
I have some doubts about track folders. I mean, the problem is the chaos, which needs to be solved. I dont think it is a general good idea to ask for a feature, before the main problem is fully understood. If they came up with something else to help me to manage the chaos i create, i am fine with it. Ofc soe kind fo grouping is the solution most come up with, but i stay open here for suggestions and solutions...
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esselfortium
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29 Jan 2021

Loque wrote:
29 Jan 2021
Ottostrom wrote:
29 Jan 2021

This is also what I expect and fear. Like, the high res update is definitely gonna be nice but it's not gonna add much in terms of functionality since I really haven't had a problem with how Reason currently look. They might add track folders just cause some users have been shouting it from the rooftops but I'm not counting on much more than that.
I would happily be proven wrong tho!
I have some doubts about track folders. I mean, the problem is the chaos, which needs to be solved. I dont think it is a general good idea to ask for a feature, before the main problem is fully understood. If they came up with something else to help me to manage the chaos i create, i am fine with it. Ofc soe kind fo grouping is the solution most come up with, but i stay open here for suggestions and solutions...
Right, track folders would be great but they're kinda only part of the equation. So I guess what we'd need is track folders and um.... hmm..... rack folders? Someone should workshop this.
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Loque
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29 Jan 2021

Popey wrote:
29 Jan 2021
...thus why I am now thinking what + means for me moving forward with regard perpetual upgrades.
Yea, you got it. Its up to you which route you take. Finally someone understood this.

Nobody knows what will happen in 5, 10 or 15 years...Maybe something like remote-only with VR and you pay for CPU performance :-D
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Loque
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29 Jan 2021

esselfortium wrote:
29 Jan 2021
Loque wrote:
29 Jan 2021


I have some doubts about track folders. I mean, the problem is the chaos, which needs to be solved. I dont think it is a general good idea to ask for a feature, before the main problem is fully understood. If they came up with something else to help me to manage the chaos i create, i am fine with it. Ofc soe kind fo grouping is the solution most come up with, but i stay open here for suggestions and solutions...
Right, track folders would be great but they're kinda only part of the equation. So I guess what we'd need is track folders and um.... hmm..... rack folders? Someone should workshop this.
You get the point. Rack folders. The good old Mega Combinator or Combinator inside Combinator. The main problem is, that you have amazing big freedom in Reason. You can route everything everywhere, even to the outside world and back again, loop it 3 times round, and .... So, how can this chaos be managed? Even a simple midi track can trigger stuff all over the rack...
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1reasonable
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29 Jan 2021

I don’t think there will be one that is going to be very appealing. If you compare the situation with the Apple App Store: apps started out being free (with advertising) with an option to buy to remove ads. Gradually as the App Store matured, many of the apps weren’t selling, because almost everybody had purchased them. For app developers, this meant they had to come up with a constant revenue stream to keep their businesses going. So, the subscription model has become popular.

Yes you can still make an App Store app purchase, but with an awful lot of the apps you are expected, or persuaded to, buy a subscription. I think because of the fact that RS have pushed the perpetual licence owner route to the background of the website means that it is heading towards subscription only. In effect, perpetual licence holders will be phased out from any further development. Yes, we may get a version 12, but how will they pitch it? As better than a subscription? It’s all very messy, and upsetting for existing licence owners, and for me it’s been pitched like a Sky or British Gas offer “x% off for NEW subscribers only” in the small print - no room for existing customers!

If RS had any regard for their user base why have they seemingly ignored them with this launch announcement? What would have been more acceptable and exciting to the user base, as some have already opined on this forum, is a dual Reason+ Reason 12 upgrade launch.

It seems to me, that as with several past update cycles, bugs and or enhancements have been set aside by RS (just look how Microsoft and Apple handle these? With each new version, the old version’s bugs are left to wither on the vine, forgotten and replaced by an “exciting new version” with bells and whistles that nobody wants or asked for).

I know this sounds pessimistic, but I can only speak from my experience and observations. From the RS point of view, the point is they have to explore new revenue streams, as that RS are way past the Apple App Store analogy revenue cycle, so what do they do? It seemed obvious to me from the customer service surveys they set out following the raft of users that didn’t upgrade to the underwhelming upgrade to R11. What did that upgrade make you feel like as an existing loyal user? “Hmm - RRP! Great! I can use it in my other DAWS! Other DAWS? The only way that users have gone for other DAWs (as RS know full well) is the frustration at lack of Reason DAW delevopment! A significant number likely want to another DAW after the upgrade just so they could use the RRP! Plus yet another instrument! Any requests for that?

I don’t blame RS for having to do something to keep the business profitable, but they could have been much less brutal and more understanding and inclusive towards the loyal user base that invested majorly over the years, only to feel like that have had the rug pulled from under them.

A 50% off you first year limited-time offer to join Reason+ is to me a cheap, insulting stunt to attempt to persuade current users to convert to what will become the new norm. Why did they not also pitch a future perpetual major upgrade? They hope you will forget about your licences (maybe over time-maybe 3 to 5 years, subtly and quietly just cancel them like the Ignition Key) whilst making a perpetual licence less and less appealing (they have already done a pretty good job with R11 - I upgraded and I don’t know why - and the now already defunct Suite. And what about Intro and Lite? A potential path into a perpetual full Reason licence that they want to dissuade new users away from by discontinuing them! The signs are all there...they don’t want new perpetual licence holders!

The way this has been handled strongly indicates a panic move - little revenue means little future: “ Whoops! Oh yeah, our current user base...,er...um - we’ll deal with that later...” Meanwhile the now dwindling user base has moved on!

I think most forum members wished that Wednesday never happened, but it has, so we must wake up and smell the coffee!
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QVprod
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29 Jan 2021

R+ is undoubtedly aimed at newer users for now. I’m sure they’ll sweeten the pot for us long timers eventually, but if they’re going to sell Reason 12 licenses, it has to be attractive for people to buy it. Likely will see more core upgrades happening with the recurring income but I think they’ll still add a device or 2 in new versions. They have to be able to market something, and for them that’s usually a device, or in R11’s case a plugin as well as new devices.

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Ottostrom
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29 Jan 2021

Loque wrote:
29 Jan 2021
esselfortium wrote:
29 Jan 2021

Right, track folders would be great but they're kinda only part of the equation. So I guess what we'd need is track folders and um.... hmm..... rack folders? Someone should workshop this.
You get the point. Rack folders. The good old Mega Combinator or Combinator inside Combinator. The main problem is, that you have amazing big freedom in Reason. You can route everything everywhere, even to the outside world and back again, loop it 3 times round, and .... So, how can this chaos be managed? Even a simple midi track can trigger stuff all over the rack...
For me it would definitely be enough to clean up the sequencer as I'm okay with the chaos in the rack :-)
If I'm gonna drag different wires all over the place then thats on me and I even enjoy managing that freedom. The sequencer is another beast tho since it actually controls how my song is being performed. Personally I'd be fine with a easy way to hide all automation lanes and the option to link an automation segment to a specific audio/midi segment.

Popey
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29 Jan 2021

Loque wrote:
29 Jan 2021
Popey wrote:
29 Jan 2021
...thus why I am now thinking what + means for me moving forward with regard perpetual upgrades.
Yea, you got it. Its up to you which route you take. Finally someone understood this.

Nobody knows what will happen in 5, 10 or 15 years...Maybe something like remote-only with VR and you pay for CPU performance :-D
Thanks Loque. Not liking my routes much can I have a new map 🤣

I understand it and can see the benefits for rs as they need more users to expand or make company look profitable for sale. Just not interested in sub at all so guess I see what 12 brings and decide if it warrants enough value to upgrade licence. Worst case scenario I have £129 to spend on yet another synth elsewhere 🤣🤣🤣

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illlumen
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29 Jan 2021

1reasonable wrote:
29 Jan 2021
Why did they not also pitch a future perpetual major upgrade? They hope you will forget about your licences (maybe over time-maybe 3 to 5 years, subtly and quietly just cancel them like the Ignition Key) whilst making a perpetual licence less and less appealing (they have already done a pretty good job with R11 - I upgraded and I don’t know why - and the now already defunct Suite. And what about Intro and Lite? A potential path into a perpetual full Reason licence that they want to dissuade new users away from by discontinuing them! The signs are all there...they don’t want new perpetual licence holders!
It is great (and sad at the same time) reading your thoughts. I've been a fool to watch the livestream (and all the hatred in the right corner) a few days ago. To be honest, I really hoped that they would say anything important about the questions I have. But all they did was praising themselves for being a great team and for being so generous (!) with even more patches and unnecessary stuff.
After reading your post I knew that there will be time when I finally leave Reason. At least I'll stay with R10 until then. Nothing wrong with the product, but my daily workflow could be so much faster and more intuitive with another DAW (and months of hard work learning to translate). After 18 years this is the first time that I really think about something like that. Still on R10 here - and I am so happy not having upgraded for those fancy new automation curves. I'll wait what happens with R12 and if there will be any important change at all.

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antic604
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29 Jan 2021

Loque wrote:
29 Jan 2021
I speculate, that the HiRes UI will come with 12. I dont expect much else.
https://www.reasonstudios.com/blog/intr ... eason-plus
So, what else are we up to?
  • There is a new synthesizer Rack Extension coming in March. You’ll be able to purchase it separately, and it's of course also included as part of Reason+.
  • Yes, we are working on a major update to Reason to come later this year that will include high resolution graphics, workflow enhancements and some new devices, too. We’ll price it similarly to how we have before for the perpetual license owners. Reason+ subscribers gain immediate access upon release.
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guitfnky
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29 Jan 2021

I was thinking about this yesterday, and personally (I know this isn’t going to be a widely-shared opinion), I would actually be okay with them not including new devices in major point releases. if they spend our DAW upgrade $ ONLY on DAW improvements, that will make the core experience smoother, which is the most important thing for me, right now. and if they spend our device purchase $ ONLY on new devices, I’d be totally cool with that.

for now. 😆
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ksniod
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29 Jan 2021

I guess upgrades of the perpetual licences are planned to be core daw only, the additional goodies being for R+ or only bought individually, to incite subscription.
Maybe the flack taken will soften this approach and we'll get a package of core daw + some new goodies.

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miscend
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29 Jan 2021

Loque wrote:
29 Jan 2021
I speculate, that the HiRes UI will come with 12. I dont expect much else.

I think more DAW features and workflow enhancements have been hinted at for a while. In the latest blog post they mention there will be new devices too.

"Yes, we are working on a major update to Reason to come later this year that will include high resolution graphics, workflow enhancements and some new devices, too"

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Loque
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29 Jan 2021

miscend wrote:
29 Jan 2021
Loque wrote:
29 Jan 2021
I speculate, that the HiRes UI will come with 12. I dont expect much else.

I think more DAW features and workflow enhancements have been hinted at for a while. In the latest blog post they mention there will be new devices too.

"Yes, we are working on a major update to Reason to come later this year that will include high resolution graphics, workflow enhancements and some new devices, too"
I hope you are right, but i am quite fine with the current state...Just iron out some anyoing things.
If you give me some amazing (DAW) features, i throw you my money in your face ofc.
If you give me moar samples, i go and buy some beer for my money or buy a pizza...
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JunctionArsonist
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29 Jan 2021

i love reason but a marketing announcement that was totally without new features was a tipping point for me. I bought Cubase 11. im tired of waiting for new features when they are elsewhere. A bunch of threads here are essentially tempering their expectations for R12. I'll do my best to live in the low res reason rack in perpetuity.

I feel bad for RE developers!

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Loque
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29 Jan 2021

JunctionArsonist wrote:
29 Jan 2021
i love reason but a marketing announcement that was totally without new features was a tipping point for me. I bought Cubase 11. im tired of waiting for new features when they are elsewhere. A bunch of threads here are essentially tempering their expectations for R12. I'll do my best to live in the low res reason rack in perpetuity.

I feel bad for RE developers!
TBH, it was not fully without features, since the subscription, packs and the Companien app with potential interesting features for the future are features, but not for everyone.

When they announced the RRP i thought, "yea, nice, good for RS, but i dont need it". And in the end, it was a good decision and it was something i suggested in the past too: To create Reason as a VST.

Probably the marketing hype was a bit wrong adressed and the new thing is not for everybody...

How did you have made the announcement and tried to reach new ppl investing in Reason?
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EnochLight
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29 Jan 2021

Popey wrote:
29 Jan 2021
Suppose new version will answer our questions but be good if a reason studio employee could offer some clarity.
You can't get much clearer than this:


Reason_12_upgrade_coming.jpg
Reason_12_upgrade_coming.jpg (228.33 KiB) Viewed 3055 times
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Loque
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29 Jan 2021

EnochLight wrote:
29 Jan 2021
Popey wrote:
29 Jan 2021
Suppose new version will answer our questions but be good if a reason studio employee could offer some clarity.
You can't get much clearer than this:



Reason_12_upgrade_coming.jpg
:D :clap:

But tbh, its hard to keep track of all the news channels...
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guitfnky
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29 Jan 2021

Loque wrote:
29 Jan 2021
JunctionArsonist wrote:
29 Jan 2021
i love reason but a marketing announcement that was totally without new features was a tipping point for me. I bought Cubase 11. im tired of waiting for new features when they are elsewhere. A bunch of threads here are essentially tempering their expectations for R12. I'll do my best to live in the low res reason rack in perpetuity.

I feel bad for RE developers!
TBH, it was not fully without features, since the subscription, packs and the Companien app with potential interesting features for the future are features, but not for everyone.

When they announced the RRP i thought, "yea, nice, good for RS, but i dont need it". And in the end, it was a good decision and it was something i suggested in the past too: To create Reason as a VST.

Probably the marketing hype was a bit wrong adressed and the new thing is not for everybody...

How did you have made the announcement and tried to reach new ppl investing in Reason?
I would argue that sound packs aren’t a feature, but a benefit. they don’t add anything new to Reason that wasn’t already available to anyone—they’re effectively just additional Refills that subscribers don’t have to pay separately for.

either way, they should NOT have built up hype for this announcement as much as they did—that’s like getting everyone excited for Reason 12, only to announce that Reason 12 consists solely of an update to the factory soundbank.
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EnochLight
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29 Jan 2021

guitfnky wrote:
29 Jan 2021
that’s like getting everyone excited for Reason 12, only to announce that Reason 12 consists solely of an update to the factory soundbank.
Or like getting everyone excited for Reason 8, only to announce that Reason 8 just has a mediocre browser improvement, removed Line6 amps, and refreshed GUI/UX that a lot of people hated at first.

I'll see myself out... :lol:
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MrFigg
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29 Jan 2021

Soundpax shmoundpax i say. 200GB of refills and samples which I hardly look at these days just sitting on a hard rice already. So not for me. All good here. Bring on 12 and I’m done :).
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