Reason updates (11.3.7 / 11.3.8) and Reason+

[shropshirelad]

I've been looking at other DAWs today. Man does studio one look good! Could anyone recommend it?

Yes! I started using it last year and haven't looked back. I have LogicX and Reason but rarely touch them (do use the RRP a fair bit in S1). One of the best things about S1 is the support for users - check out some of the videos from Gregor & Joe on Youtube. Amazingly good presenters! You soon feel that your'e part of the S1 family, using a DAW that is really developing and a company that is listening. I've added a Faderport 8 & Atom in recent months - both superb bits of kit. There's a subscription option too, for only £13.41 per month - much more like it!

[Kuranes2021]

You all want the reason, WHY NOW they released Reason+ (without the additional release of anything of real value like a full update)?

Because of the pandemic, baby.

Just like CD Project Red with their catastrophic release of "Cyberpunk 2077" they must have thought it would be a great opportunity to make tons of money, when the whole effing world has to stay at home. Well, at least this might have been the plan. Like CD Project Red, they didn't think about what consequences it might have to disappoint a significant amount of their userbase.

Who would have thought that?

Well, everyone with a REASONable mind.

Greetings from a former Reason whale, or just - the "Internet".

P.S.: And of what you've done to the 3rd Party devs, we've taken notice. Shame on you...

[avasopht]

I have changed my mind on R+. The 50% discount requires $100 upfront and is not automatically refunded if I cancel, instead, I have to email them to make a refund request, which they have not guaranteed.

Maybe if they'd bought out an entire sample/loop library company, offering $10,000s worth of content, while building on top of that content to create devices similar to what Output offers they'd have an instabuy for DAW users who initially came for the library, but also have Reason standalone to play around with.

Reason has the building blocks to be a no-brainer for any music maker, and there are so many easy wins they're not exploring.

I really don't get why they've not offered a free RE VST that makes any RE available in VST hosts. That not only extends the reach of REs but also doubles up as a viable (and simpler) alternative to JUCE for VST developers (who also get instant deployment to Reason).

We'll see. This could easily come to be an offering that is too valuable to pass up. But that might take another 5-10 years of content and feature improvements.

My anticipation based on Reason Studio's PR and general attitude, however, is that they will continue on with their more hard-line approach.

[Gothi]

To me, a Reason replacement is simply not possible. I take all possible benefits from its modular nature and the UI means a lot in this regard. I know other DAWs have some routings, but they can hardly beat the options and straight forwardness of non-symbolic graphics of Reason.

However, the bane of software DAWs is that they may never seem finished to you. There is always something missing, and when you think there is not, some upgrade with a new tasty gadget will convince you there is. Right now, people do not know what R12 will contain apart from hi-res graphics, but are still worried about its availability and price.

After this event, I think I will return to the hardware approach: At a certain point, there will be no more OS upgrades, and you will have to live with the limitations left if you want to keep it at all.

So, I have downloaded the latest version of Reason and stashed it on a drive. All my REs are downloaded too. Nothing left in the clouds, and from this point, I do not really need to even visit the homepage. As a few failed hardware upgrades taught me in the prime 00s:

"If it ain't broken, don't fix it.....idiot."

[DecafDreams]

Reason Plusgood
License Ungood

[stuk71]

For me right now Reason + feels like it is surplus to requirements and not very good value for money... maybe when Reason 12 drops, then I will revisit the idea of Reason +

But for now, I don’t see the point in paying a subscription for something I already own.

Reason 11 suite owner

[Loque]

...Maybe if they'd bought out an entire sample/loop library company, offering $10,000s worth of content...

Mehh, this would have had the least interest for me. It would have been just another sample lib, while you get FREE SAMPLE PACK CONTAINING 10GB OF GREAT CONTENT everywhere for nothing, I have tons of samples i never heard on my HD, tons of refills i never touched, even all the samples and loops stuff in Reason11 i never touched.

But i like the idea of the packs, where you can check a complete, well, pack...It contains everything to make a specific song type/genre, a specific synth or whatever. Man, i really had payed for something like this in my beginning times, where i absolutely had no clue how to create a song or sounds for the music i wanted to make. Or imagine a package dedicated to vocal processing or mastering... Man, in the past i really had payed for it, as long it has high quality content and if i could effort it.

Today, naahhh, i have enough and know enough...but in the past, yea, sure, give it to me!

And as a side note, i think most samples, sounds, patches are just complete cheap crap out there. I dont want another synth with 1000 patches. Man, how much time do those guys think i have to browse through 1000 patches? I would like rather see 50 really high quality patches instead of 1000 crap sh!t which i need to make sound good, before i can use them... And today i know, creating a really, really good patch can eat up hours. Just for one patch! So, i know good stuff costs money, its ok, but it MUST BE GOOD!

[easyrider]

I've been looking at other DAWs today. Man does studio one look good! Could anyone recommend it?

Yes,

I have

Studio One 5
Faderport 16
Console 1

I mainly record Real Drums, guitar and bass...And do orchestration with Spitfire Libraries etc......recently in lockdown I’ve been getting into the reason rack within studio one and love it....In fact I think I’ll pick up Reason Suite upgrade form a third party seller while I still can.

[Jagwah]

garlic bread

[JiggeryPokery]

I didn't buy. It wasn't out of malice. I just found what I needed inside Reason.

The thing you're missing is that Reason Studios control the RE market. If they think an RE developer is entering or threatening their revenue then they reserve the right to kick them out. Oh wait, I worded that wrong

If they think that an RE developer is violating their code of conduct then they reserve the right to kick them out. Don't forget that they're selling a service, but just because you bought into it doesn't give you any guaranteed rights to your spot.

How is that (a fair) competition?

There is none! Because in the end Reason Studios always wins.

I never said the competition was fair, BTW. Obviously RS has an edge. My entire point is: a Reason+ subscription service option does not change things for third party devs just because it comes with a bunch of RE's (assuming they eventually do add the ability for R+ subs to purchase third party RE's, as I understand - according to the FAQ pointed out to me will be soon).

And there is it!

The crucial line that entirely undermines your stated opinion and supports the facts I presented:

" I didn't buy. It wasn't out of malice. I just found what I needed inside Reason."

Exactly!!

By giving people everything they think they need in Reason, there's no real incentive to investigate alternatives, often better alternatives. And when you're spending £20 every month just to be able to load a songfile, you're going to make damn sure you make full use of what you've been given in Reason first before you ever look at the Shop, especially when they're also going to be continually bombarded with more free "high quality" 'ID8 in a Combinator' patches on a weekly basis. Absolutely, a minority of well-off power-users will look in the Shop, and a few purchases will be made, some of them outside of sales, I'm not suggesting zero shop revenues here. But your—sorry for the perjoative—average joe, it'll be at best look but don't touch.

I don't take it personally, honestly! I don't mind if you buy or don't my products, that's not the point, though of course I'd haved liked you to have every one! But that right there is the free market: you chose mine or another third party dev. But third party devs as a group, we can't compete with RS when they wilfully undermine us and offer mostly inferior products, but usually good enough, or really, yes, more specifically it's good-looking enough that people don't feel the need to buy anything else. They mostly use good visual design to mask surprisingly questionable or half-arsed feature-sets.

ReasonStudios want, nay, desperately want more third party devices in the shop. Because that 30% is free literally (give or take a few cents of infrastructure costs), free money. So long as at least one person buys it they earn money on in it, of course they want as much in the shop as possible, with as high a % take as possible. Gorilla Editor was a big win for them because it opened the doors for masses of extra content produced extraordinary cheaply by new entrants (and yes, I've produced FX stuff in Gorilla too, but never the basic modules simply reskinned). As a result, it also tends to very samey. Regardless, quality doesn't matter to them, but quantity does, hence why they're happy with obvious copyright infringemnt like Softphonics, so they earn both on our stuff and their stuff. That's why it's unfair competition, we're trying to compete with RS. It's totally different to me competing with let's say, Turn2On. His chorus device is the Gorilla Chorus Module with a couple of filters stuck after it. People can freely chose based on cost or what they perceive as better sound. I think they'd be insane to buy that, but I can't be upset, it's cheaper than mine because mine is far higher quality so I think I should charge an appropriate price for that, and that's fair competition against another dev: he's on the same field I am, sometimes I score, sometimes he does. But for every goal I get two points on the board, but he only gets one. C'est la vie. Meanwhile RS earn half a point on both.

But neither he nor I get a cent of Quartet, which RS also produced in Gorilla Editor, for pretty much no significant development cost just to quickly bump up the Reason 11 feature list and quite intentionally to piss me off because they specifically used the term "BBD", even though it's not a BBD. A BBD chorus is a chorus produced by using a BBD. Gorilla's IDL chorus module is not suddenly a BBD chorus because they've stacked four of them (which wouldn't really work well as they wouldn't be synced correctly). Or maybe they didn't even do that and it's literally just the basic 4-voice chorus module in Gorilla Editor with a couple of filters stuck after it. (Filters that, incidentally, are ... well, "buggy" would be harsh, but I had an exchange of views with uJam questioning their behaviour and I still think it's iffy ) So let's be clear: Quartet's use of the label "BBD" is intentionally misleading, to suggest it's the same style and quality of chorus as Chenille. It is not.

So by offering that and pretending it's a "special type of chorus" (MHG's exact words on Test Pilot forum), he was willfully undermining our real and hard work. It's disheartening. He could have reached out to us and said, "we want to add a really good new chorus to Reason, could we license your Chenille codebase?" I'd have made a bit more money, Pitchblende would have received more money, and every Reason user would instant access to what is still the best true chorus available for Reason.

Instead, what people actually got was the exact same chorus they'd have got if they bought any other chorus released in the previous two years, just with a couple of filters in slightly different order.

So, now both me and Turn2On lose out on a potential sale to every user who might have wanted an alternative chorus. They see "BBD" on the Quartet label, then see "BBD" on mine and they'll think "oh, well, I already have a BBD chorus" even though they don't. So RS are cutting off their nose to spite me by being dishonest about the product, yet by doing that they now also lose half a point on a potentially lost Chenille sale. This is the level of stupidity we're dealing with at RS these days.

It's one thing to compete against other devs in an open playing field but PH/RS have actively worked to undermine us. Scuzzy and I were working on a BBD Flanger. Then they released Reason 11. And you know, our testers all agreed it sounded so much better than the PoS crap they knocked out, and ours offered some really unique functionality in the Reason space. Now, I'm less sure Sweeper was using Gorilla phaser/flanger module as I didn't try it myself, but it seems likely given Quartet definitely is (if it isn't, then they've literally copied it right down to the value ranges). Even if Sweeper is hand-coded, it'll be copied straight out of the pages of Pirkle.

[KRS Music]

I really hopes it's some kind of virtual musician. You know, like an imaginary friend. So you get a starter pack of say a Hendrix, John Bonham and Kate Bush. With a free Jean Michel Jarre for users that have three or more updates under their belt.

OK, so I was way off the mark with this idea. It's OK Reason Studios, I can probably live without a virtual Hendrix.

But I still wouldn't mind a Virtual John Bonham. I wonder what 'Algoritm' could be? For anyone who's not sure what I'm on about, it was 'accidentally leaked' earlier in this thread.

[WillyOD]

My prediction: Props will bring down the sub price to 15,99 or 16,99 (but not 14,99) (making it not the most expensive sub in the whole Internet (I'm sure there's more expensive stuff just nothing that I'm aware of)) and hope everyone will be happy. Still too expensive but nice try.

[MattiasHG]

But neither he nor I get a cent of Quartet, which RS also produced in Gorilla Editor, for pretty much no significant development cost just to quickly bump up the Reason 11 feature list and quite intentionally to piss me off because they specifically used the term "BBD", even though it's not a BBD. A BBD chorus is a chorus produced by using a BBD. Gorilla's IDL chorus module is not suddenly a BBD chorus because they've stacked four of them (which wouldn't really work well as they wouldn't be synced correctly). Or maybe they didn't even do that and it's literally just the basic 4-voice chorus module in Gorilla Editor with a couple of filters stuck after it. (Filters that, incidentally, are ... well, "buggy" would be harsh, but I had an exchange of views with uJam questioning their behaviour and I still think it's iffy ) So let's be clear: Quartet's use of the label "BBD" is intentionally misleading, to suggest it's the same style and quality of chorus as Chenille. It is not.

Look, I'm not interested in coming here being defensive or get into a deep spiral of arguing, we have very different opinions on many things and that's OK, but what you're saying here is simply not true. Both Quartet and Sweeper were coded by Peter Jubel in his custom DSP development environment. It has nothing to do with Gorilla Engine and takes no pre-made code for anywhere other than perhaps Peter's own stash of DSP code he's built during the years.

It's fine to keep hating and slander me personally. I've become a public person because I want to interact with the community (heck, we've had dinner once Matt!), so even though it feels really bad to get assigned all this made up malice, I've accepted I can't control that. But please don't resort to lies. It's not helping anyone.

[Proboscis]

By giving people everything they think they need in Reason, there's no real incentive to investigate alternatives, often better alternatives.

The path Reason has taken with the RRP is to become a 'super plugin', and with this announcement, I guess they're banking on the idea that people can access a huge bank of 70 devices for only $20/month - specifically for other DAW users. And for the folks who 'buy' into this, well.... why would they necessarily entertain the idea of third party RE's on top of that if/when it's part of the subscription platform?

There are already 10's of 1000's of VSTs on the market, and no particular advantage can be argued for anyone to buy extra stuff from the RE marketplace when the new target market is other DAW users. The modular rack concept holds no particular appeal to those who have never been in the Reason ecosystem previously and are already comfortable with VST and their DAW of choice.

From where I sit, I've felt that Propellerhead/RS have abandoned developers. All of the OG's touted in the original promo video are long gone insofar as developing for Reason is concerned. The many bundles they have offered in the past would have yielded developers a fraction of their retail price on individual sales. The 'rent a RE bundle' or whatever that hair-brained scheme was called, can't have funneled much money to developers (since the uptake was so low).The 'Reason Fun Bucks' sham locked out most developers.

But what really shows their disregard for the third party developers that worked to make Reason an expandable platform, is that Reason has abandoned them since the RRP. The technology and infrastructure to host in other DAWS is already there, since RRP. It would take very minimal work to strip it down to an invisible shell in order for individual RE's to be sold to use on other DAWS, a seamless integration that would let folks buy whatever RE's they wanted, without the buy-in to Reason proper.

As a relatively long term Reason user, the knock-on effect of their tone-deaf and poorly-conceived direction, I'm not only of the mind of ending my support for the company, but to avoid buying any more third party RE's, because I'm not confident in the longevity of the platform. In recent times, I've declared to myself that when R12 drops, I'll upgrade (from R10), to gain access to the RRP, and move to a superior DAW (which is, just about every other DAW on the market), while maintaining the thousands of dollars in RE's I already own. Since this latest announcement, I'm starting to wonder if I've missed the boat, and perhaps there won't be regular Reason upgrade option in the future, as they forge ahead with whatever ill-conceived plans they are plotting out.

[madmacman]

I've been looking at other DAWs today. Man does studio one look good! Could anyone recommend it?

Another vote here for S1!

Happy user since Studio One 4.

[RobBarnett]

Wow, I am amazed at the emotion in some of the responses in this thread.

I agree, that RS implementing new feature takes a long time. It frustrates me and my fellow Reason users but it has always been that way.

I also agree that the marketing for Reason+ could have been done better - i.e. prior to release, an email to all existing licence owners stating the facts we're now seeing on social media as FAQ's.

I have purchased the Reason 11 licence and a whole stack of RS and other Devs RE's. It provides me with the "right to use" these versions/products - nothing more. It does not provide a guarantee that there will be future versions or enhancements.

How does this change affect me? It doesn't, apart from offering me "another" option to how I use the platform in the future.
If it brings in more users and additional revenue for RS, then I see that as a good thing as I want company to succeed and progress.

I look at it this way - I currently own a car. there is no guarantee the manufacturer will bring out a new version of this model with loads of enhancements. Next time I want to upgrade I can opt to lease one from the same manufacturer or I can go lease or buy from another manufacturer. I can take the additional accessories I've purchased from my old car into the new one if I want.

Stressing about something which hasn't happened yet, is a waste of energy.

[Jagwah]

It's just not a nice time for a lot of us, frustrations have been building for years and something like this makes them boil over.

Wouldn't it be nice to be one of those guys with the ridiculous bias that figures Props can never do any wrong, and everybody else (the overwhelming majority) are just stupid because they don't see it the way they do. How blissfully ignorant.

Reason 10 FTW.

[Auryn]

Look, I'm not interested in coming here being defensive or get into a deep spiral of arguing, we have very different opinions on many things and that's OK, but what you're saying here is simply not true. Both Quartet and Sweeper were coded by Peter Jubel in his custom DSP development environment. It has nothing to do with Gorilla Engine and takes no pre-made code for anywhere other than perhaps Peter's own stash of DSP code he's built during the years.

It's fine to keep hating and slander me personally. I've become a public person because I want to interact with the community (heck, we've had dinner once Matt!), so even though it feels really bad to get assigned all this made up malice, I've accepted I can't control that. But please don't resort to lies. It's not helping anyone.

Mattias, there isn't any mention of you personally in JP's post. Regardless of his talk about Quartet, which is hard for an outsider to adjudicate, I feel he's just expressing frustration at the way Reason+ is turning out for us 3rd party developers. I don't want to attribute malice to anyone, I love Reason like many others here, but the way 3rd party developers have been relegated to being an afterthought on your site seems pretty dismissive of the contributions they've made over the years to the platform. If you want to interact with the community, you could do a lot of good if you just addressed the issues raised in a forthright manner. That would certainly help.

[zabukowski]

Mattias, there isn't any mention of you personally in JP's post.

I think there is: "So by offering that and pretending it's a "special type of chorus" (MHG's exact words on Test Pilot forum), "

[easyrider]

Subs are a PITA....throwaway subs like Netflix and Prime are not the same as Music Creation Tools....

I bought Reason 11 on release due to the Rack implementation in other DAWs....Didn’t really get around to sinking myself into at the time...but always thought I have the option...I haven’t used it in 12 months....Just been getting into the Reason Rack in Studio One while in lock down....It was nice to have spent the money on reason when I was flush 18 months ago and didn’t really notice the outlay...And now have it as an option still as my outlay was done at point of purchase.

18 x 20 = 360 current sub price...

So 18 months ago when heard about Reason Rack I bought Reason...Didn’t really use it...Cost to me was £309 at the time IIRC.

Now 18 months on I can still use it as a tool in my DAW....not paying any more month to month...

Imagine if the sub model was available 18 months ago....I would be £360 down at this moment in time with a further £20 to outlay in Feb another £20 to outlay in March etc....

fast forward another 18 months

36x20= £720

That means if ,hypothetically speaking ,if I took the sub out 18 months ago and used it from now on until 2022 I would of shelled out £720 and once I stop paying I lose everything....

Even the upgrade from 11 to 12 will be around £129 still cheaper than the sub model....

[Auryn]

Mattias, there isn't any mention of you personally in JP's post.

I think there is: "So by offering that and pretending it's a "special type of chorus" (MHG's exact words on Test Pilot forum), "

Oops, granted, I missed that...

I don't think the best way to interpret JP's post is as a personal attack, but I shouldn't speak for him

[sprinkles__]

I look at it this way - I currently own a car. there is no guarantee the manufacturer will bring out a new version of this model with loads of enhancements. Next time I want to upgrade I can opt to lease one from the same manufacturer or I can go lease or buy from another manufacturer. I can take the additional accessories I've purchased from my old car into the new one if I want.

Well, there you go, a good summation of what this is all about: endless product churn. The leasing scam that everyone has bought into allows the car industry to endlessly bleed people for money, by providing an 'all-round' package with care, repair and whatnot, but after three years of paying £400 per month, which is enough to buy many cars outright, brand new, the consumer is left holding their dick, and they just offer a trade-in for a newer model, and off you go on the merry-go-round for another three years, pouring money into multi-billion dollar corporations' bank accounts every month and ending up with thin air for the trouble if you stop paying for your 'car as a service'.

I'd rather pay more upfront for a car which might not have all the latest twiddly bits, but that works to do what a car does, get me from one place to another without falling apart (the car, not me, i fall apart wherever i am...). It's YOUR car, nobody will come and take it if you can't pay the megacorp their blood money for that month. I can keep that car going for as long as it's feasible to, before costs outweigh benefits. But if i choose wisely, i can probably learn to do the mechanicking myself and buy parts online. Who knows how long i could actually make that car work for? Possibly forever. You see, i own it. It's mine, and i expect it to be there in the morning whether i have a penny in my bank account or not.

[JiggeryPokery]

But neither he nor I get a cent of Quartet, which RS also produced in Gorilla Editor, for pretty much no significant development cost just to quickly bump up the Reason 11 feature list and quite intentionally to piss me off because they specifically used the term "BBD", even though it's not a BBD. A BBD chorus is a chorus produced by using a BBD. Gorilla's IDL chorus module is not suddenly a BBD chorus because they've stacked four of them (which wouldn't really work well as they wouldn't be synced correctly). Or maybe they didn't even do that and it's literally just the basic 4-voice chorus module in Gorilla Editor with a couple of filters stuck after it. (Filters that, incidentally, are ... well, "buggy" would be harsh, but I had an exchange of views with uJam questioning their behaviour and I still think it's iffy ) So let's be clear: Quartet's use of the label "BBD" is intentionally misleading, to suggest it's the same style and quality of chorus as Chenille. It is not.

Look, I'm not interested in coming here being defensive or get into a deep spiral of arguing, we have very different opinions on many things and that's OK, but what you're saying here is simply not true. Both Quartet and Sweeper were coded by Peter Jubel in his custom DSP development environment. It has nothing to do with Gorilla Engine and takes no pre-made code for anywhere other than perhaps Peter's own stash of DSP code he's built during the years.

It's fine to keep hating and slander me personally. I've become a public person because I want to interact with the community (heck, we've had dinner once Matt!), so even though it feels really bad to get assigned all this made up malice, I've accepted I can't control that. But please don't resort to lies. It's not helping anyone.

Yes, we had dinner once. It was lovely and I was pleased to meet you, as I was pleased to meet JB a couple of times, and speak to a few others over Skype over the years!

Please don't mistake criticism of software or design decisions and the behaviour of your Company's policies, or your individual decisions as the Product Manager for Reason, for personal attacks. What you're doing here is a passive-aggressive attempt to try and undermine such criticism from those who disagree with you by trying to take some kind of moral high ground in suggesting it's all slander and lies. Truly, I don't mind being wrong, that's how I often learn stuff. I'm one of those people who's actually happy to admit I'm wrong. What I do object to is being patronised and fed a well-parsed line that while it isn't necessarily untrue, is highly disingenous and misleading.

"!Made up malice", Mattias? Really? For the benefit of the tape, just so people know where our communication problems started, I only got upset with you personally, when you called me "hostile" in response to merely for trying to explain to you, in probably too much detail I admit, but quite reasonably and with good humour, why Players needed a folding view back during the Players SDK beta test. You seem to mistake valid criticism for the product for personal disloyalty.

So yes, that comment of yours bloody well hurt, and still hurts, after all the money I've given to PH through purchases and through my contributions as, at least at one point in the past, a top 10 RE developer, that you value our opinions as developers and customers so little: you said, and I quote, "we know what Reason users want". In that one phrase you dismissively implied you don't value any developer's opinions, only Reason users, and yet at same time you didn't consider my opinion and experience as a Reason user valid. So one might justifiably conclude the only opinion you value is one that agrees with the business position you've already decided. It was bizarre. To cap it all, in what at the time I could only perceive as also a passive-aggressive move, for some reason you CC'd your response to Ernst even though it was just an opinion conversation between you and me, thus ensuring the really the conversation was actually over. I mean, you asked me for my opinion, but when I gave it you just rejected it outright as hostile!

Anyway...
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7512772&p=452745&hi ... ed#p452745

And, mate, I saw the post where you described a BBD as a special kind of chorus, in relation to Quartet, someone screengrabbed it for me. Things aren't slander or lies when they actually happened. In my post above I did note I was less sure Sweeper was via Gorilla, and right now for the record I'm totally happy to accept it isn't, and I'm wrong about that. See? It's easy. I was wrong. But I note you don't reject any other argument I've made.

Mattias, you don't pay for development. You don't pay for Reason upgrades or subscriptions. You don't pay for REs, you get them all free. (Disclaimer: I've had some free upgrade licenses, but also, I've paid for others and I've bought plenty of other people's REs, including PH's).

As a developer it hurts that basically it made the hours of work Scuzzy and I put into our flanger an absolute waste of time. Fallacy of sunk costs and all that. We could have continued for another six months, cos bless him, he has a full-time job and would spend an hour on it every morning before work. I'm gutted for his effort not being rewarded. But you don't see that side of things.

Frankly, there was no way we'd get a viable RoI for the pair of us with Peter Jubel's very basic and dated flanger algo given a lick of paint and blasted out to every new user and upgrader.

Now, is Quartet bespoke or Gorilla? Maybe Peter Jubel told you it was all original and you genuinely don't know in which case, you were misinformed. What is certain is that everything about it could easily be done in Gorilla: from what I recall it used the exact same min/max values as Gorilla's chorus, with the Grain Pitcher or Frequency Shifter (I forget which) on another mode. If I'm wrong, again fair enough, but right now, you simply saying it isn't is not particularly convincing. If you know Quartet, and you know Gorilla, you can understand why anyone would think it's Gorilla-based.

And lastly I don't want to make it sound like I'm anti-Gorilla per se. I've used it plenty, and it's a lot of fun. Personally when I've used I tried to do things that weren't really being done, and not simple reskins. Some other devs have taken the same approach and done some great stuff, others haven't, but that's the nature of those kinds of "anyone can do it" type tools.

[stuk71]

I’ve been toying with Cubase 11 trial, but the cost is a turn off.

I read in this thread that Studio One v5 is good... and I see they do a sub for £13.41 a month.. for everything...kinda looks like Cubase too

It’s very ironic that RS announce a Sub, and I consider a sub with another company. For me, I’d be gaining a huge amount of new stuff to play around with and can still use the RRP.

Maybe that’s how things are going? We don’t all stick with the same Gas and electric provider year.

[zergoli3499]

Reason User since Rebirth here! If Reason 12 is not a banger, i will consider leaving the ecosystem probably for Live suite or FL studio.
And as we are subscribed to unpleasant surprises. It wouldn't surprise me that after reason 12 we will no longer have perpetual licenses. Disgusted that third party developers are not respected because they have contributed a lot to the effectiveness of